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#46433 - 12/02/12 05:39 PM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Revlgking]
Bill S. Offline
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Registered: 08/20/10
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Quote:
As per usual, TT, other than what you think of me, I just learned nothing about you


Rev, a man of your seeming perspicacity should perhaps have realised long ago that you will get no personal identification from TT.

Committing oneself to an identity is tantamount to committing to specific beliefs and a recognisable standpoint. Such a commitment militates against TT's style which allows him to appear to attack any/every one's posts, often without saying anything, other than words.

Don't waste your time trying to spoil his fun, nor let him spoil yours.
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#46435 - 12/02/12 09:36 PM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Bill S.]
Revlgking Offline
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Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
... Rev, a man of your seeming perspicacity should perhaps have realised long ago that you will get no personal identification from TT.
Agreed! You add
Quote:
Committing oneself to an identity is tantamount to committing to specific beliefs and a recognisable standpoint. Such a commitment militates against TT's style which allows him to appear to attack any/every one's posts, often without saying anything, other than words.
Again, I agree. Your final point
Quote:
Don't waste your time trying to spoil his fun, nor let him spoil yours.
As pers usual, wise words indeed, BillS. My ego is enjoying your commonsensical kind of advice. Perhaps this now-defunct and off-topic thread could be replaced with one in answer to the question: Is it wise for anyone to obscure and/or resist KNOWLEDGE? ...


Edited by Revlgking (12/02/12 09:44 PM)
Edit Reason: Always helpful
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#46438 - 12/03/12 08:27 AM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Bill S.]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill S.


Committing oneself to an identity is tantamount to committing to specific beliefs and a recognisable standpoint.

Interpretation of any outward signs of any kind is always subject to a system of personal measure and identification. There is no guarantee anyone of any commitment will impress a particular set of values upon anyone who is not of the same mind.
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Such a commitment militates against TT's style which allows him to appear to attack any/every one's posts, often without saying anything, other than words.

There you go. Not stepping in to claim a particular mindset cast upon myself by another is my freedom from co-dependance and the measure of someones beliefs. Free will is everyone's right, and no one should be subjected to the idea that one must meet another's expectations or judgments by measuring themselves according to another mans standards.

The nature of spirituality don'tcha know! wink
Originally Posted By: Bill S.

Don't waste your time trying to spoil his fun, nor let him spoil yours.
Wise words. A man is not free when he is bound by what others think or do.
When it comes to binding God to these kind of principles, then so is one bound themselves.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Is it wise for anyone to obscure and/or resist KNOWLEDGE? ...

Wisdom is not inherent in man, otherwise he would not have the capacity to make decisions that offer contrast to expansion and contraction of consciousness or evolution and devolution.

Wise old saying: You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

Man once thought it was wise to keep from sailing off the edge of the earth. We all know now that the earth is not flat.

Imagine what wisdom will exist 100 years from now and how our impression of our own greatness in intelligence will be reduced to a memory of antiquated ideas.
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#46442 - 12/03/12 07:06 PM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Bill]
Bill S. Offline
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Quote:
Wisdom is not inherent in man, otherwise he would not have the capacity to make decisions that offer contrast to expansion and contraction of consciousness or evolution and devolution.


The inference that if wisdom is inherent in man, un-wisdom is not, is dubious at best. A balance, or imbalance, of the two would permit the capacities you list, and would militate towards the sort of lifestyle choices that often seem to characterise the human condition.


Quote:
Man once thought it was wise to keep from sailing off the edge of the earth. We all know now that the earth is not flat.


It seems that not everyone agrees with that.

http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/

Also, can we be sure that the Earth was not flat when the majority of people believed it was?

Quote:
Imagine what wisdom will exist 100 years from now and how our impression of our own greatness in intelligence will be reduced to a memory of antiquated ideas.


It is, perhaps, rash to assume that knowledge equates to wisdom. It might also be reasonable to say: “Imagine what folly will exist 100 years from now…”
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#46453 - 12/04/12 01:46 AM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Bill S.]
Orac Offline
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Very good answers Bill S but I fear TT will give us a very verbose reply that will say the usual absolute nothing.

So lets pose a task to TT and lets see if he can give an actual answer. Does such a thing as "free will" actually exist?

Many religions and philosophies believe in "fate" and "gods will" in my science area QM the same problem crops up a resonable but not brilliant discussion is on arxiv (http://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/0208104.pdf)

So TT question 1 do you believe in free will and why?


The second question has already been sort of posed by Bill S in an indirect way is this universe and life real?

Many religions and philosophies believe this is just some existential playground and again the problem pops up in science (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_space_and_time)

In my own area of QM science "reality" is among those ellusive controversial things we discuss. In my opinion none discuss it simpler or clearer than sascha vongehr (http://www.science20.com/alpha_meme/are_you_real_quantum_mechanics-90221)

Basically as he describes we scientists break into two camps and his description I love :-)

Quote:

The “nutty nuts camp” supposedly consists of silly freaks that lost their marbles, you know, like me. They ramble about quantum mechanics supposedly showing how observers are ghosts hanging from non existent purple clouds in the sky of transcendent idealism while there is no reality; they call it anti-realism or what not. Yeah – Nuts – I told you so!

Then there is the “real reality camp”, which consists of nice people who stick to “common sense” and who hold science is about uncovering how the reality out there really works. The latter camp has support from quite a number of popular science writers and accomplished scientists, much more than the nutty nuts camp, where scientists usually only go after they got past their sell by date, the age where physicists should be put down for their own good.


So even at a science level reality is problematic and scientists will break into two so called camps.


I have a funny anecdote from this week which fits in this discussion.

A student studying QM and after an electron split beam lab showing an electron passsed through both slits or one slit depending how you observe it. With a troubled look they walked up and asked me "is an electron real" it has charge and mass and a bunch of properties they could cite but they struggled how it could pass through both slits. I never lie to students and my answer was as accurate as I could give and I said "you have defined the properties of an electron what you have not defined for me is real and there in lies your answer". Stunned the student looked at me and sneared "everyone knows what real is". I simply asked then in your real world is a rainbow real, see things can be observable but not real?

So what say you about reality TT?


Edited by Orac (12/04/12 01:47 AM)
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#46457 - 12/04/12 06:38 AM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Orac]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
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Originally Posted By: Orac


So TT question 1 do you believe in free will and why?

Yes. Will is at the very heart of all of creation. It is not bound by any rules regardless of whether levels of reality are created within laws of nature at any level.

Originally Posted By: Orac

The second question has already been sort of posed by Bill S in an indirect way is this universe and life real?

In an indirect way yes and no.
Originally Posted By: Orac

Many religions and philosophies believe this is just some existential playground and again the problem pops up in science (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_space_and_time)
I guess as long as science has a problem, whether will is free or not, sciences problems will extend themselves into every aspect of theory. For as soon as you gain an answer you create another question.
Originally Posted By: Orac

So what say you about reality TT?

It's what you make it. Underlying that relative aspect, is an unqualified field of potential consciousness waiting to be explored and made into something. (relatively speaking)
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#46459 - 12/04/12 12:49 PM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Orac Offline
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Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle

Yes. Will is at the very heart of all of creation. It is not bound by any rules regardless of whether levels of reality are created within laws of nature at any level.


You still avoided the question is the free will yours or is it gods will you are referring to ... in other words can you defy your god if you so desire?

You see the reason for the question if you have true free will you can defy your god and so your god is not omnipotent as he can not control you and hence it is a very important question.

There is no right or wrong answer some religions will answer with things like "it is allah's will" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insha'Allah)

=> Muslims believe that everything is maktub [lit.: written] and so whatever it is one wishes to do, will only occur if it is within God's plan.

Some christian religions say god made man special not just in his image but with true free will so we as humans can defy god sure he can kill us or torture us into submission but he can not control us so he gave up his omnipotent control of us. The usual extension of this is to see who is good and evil and thus free will was given to us to test us.

The question is what do you believe?

Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle

It's what you make it. Underlying that relative aspect, is an unqualified field of potential consciousness waiting to be explored and made into something. (relatively speaking)


Again you avoid answering the question is it your reality or your gods reality be specific and how is that reality defined?

You really don't like being on the end of questions do you? Are you uncomfortable in what you believe or don't you know what you believe or is your whole stance just a pose ... these questions shouldn't be hard I am more than happy to answer them if you want.

I should also say Rev K answered these questions for me without hesitation (if in a somewhat verbose way) when I put them to him and it makes understanding his religion much easier :-)


Edited by Orac (12/04/12 01:49 PM)
_________________________
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#46463 - 12/04/12 04:30 PM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Orac]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
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Originally Posted By: Orac
Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle

Yes. Will is at the very heart of all of creation. It is not bound by any rules regardless of whether levels of reality are created within laws of nature at any level.


You still avoided the question is the free will yours or is it gods will you are referring to ... in other words can you defy your god if you so desire?

No I didn't avoid the question. I answered it as it was stated.
Now you've modified the question, so lets address these modifications.

God is not something personal, tho an individual can have a personal experience of what is labeled by many as God.
However the underlying presence of all perceptions is much larger than any boundaries of perception the individual can create in any personal experience. In order to understand the nature of ones SELF, one would have to pose the question: "Who am I".
The ego sees itself as the container and within the container are memories or experiences of what the container has been exposed to. Identification with the container and its experiences of itself is what the limited ego sees as the extent of itself. This extension of Self has a will that is free to think within those boundaries of self identification. However there are much bigger aspects to the mind than the human brain and the ego. Within the conscious awareness of an individual is both the conscious and subconscious, as well as levels of consciousness, such as waking dreaming and sleeping. The experience of ones self is often limited to these three states of consciousness with their own subjective and objective experiences. Many believe what is experienced on the level of the waking state is the true self, ignoring the subjective and objective experience of the dreaming and sleeping, since they don't get as much attention. The dreaming state of consciousness experience seems to allow our mind to experience a state of self without the boundaries of time and space or even gravity. The laws of the waking state do not apply.
In the Sleeping state when the dreams are not active our waking state believes we are not active either in mind or body, yet science having monitored brain activity in sleeping states sees something different and then there is the question: "What is Consciousness?" Is it something that is bound by the brain and the body within these three states of consciousness?
In the science of spirituality there are 7 states of consciousness. 4 states above and beyond the 3 described. There are both the subjective and objective experiences of Self/self in these states of consciousness.

To make a rather long story short, the elevation of awareness into these states of conscious awareness is similar to science finding out that the empty space in the Universe is not empty, or understanding the Self is not contained by the brain or the body, but rather the brain and body as well as the world is only an extension of mind.

Free will within any idealized system of containment is bound by the natural laws of the system that creates and supports the containment system. As you ascend the ladder of multidimensional aspects of any system these laws do not apply.

So to answer your question. Freedom is relative to any level of dimensionality and its natural laws as created by the underlying reality of all relative systems.

In the big picture there is only ONE, and all subsets of seemingly fragmented identifications with personal values at any level of consciousness are reflections of the One that have congealed themselves around conscious activity to give it the appearance and quality of form and function.
That is spiritual science.
Originally Posted By: Orac

You see the reason for the question if you have true free will you can defy your god and so your god is not omnipotent as he can not control you and hence it is a very important question.

Its relative to a kind of paradigm one creates in identification of Self.
You can imagine a certain set of clothes makes you appear and feel different than another, yet what is inside of those clothes does not change.
The choices you make in any identity you choose according to how you feel wearing a set of clothes would seem also to be different according to whether you are feeling strong or weak, important or depressed and without any self worth. All of these identities the psyche accepts then limits the individual to boundaries within the idea of ones capabilities.
Spiritual science and Quantum physics says consciousness actually affects matter. That being loosely said, we also find that matter is relevant to this equation. We know that an atom is 99.999% empty space. The empty space is not so empty and the other .0001% of this atom of empty space is conscious activity manifest as something other than what appears as emptiness, and that which works within the empty space to support the appearance and experience of solid matter to our conscious mind at any level of conscious awareness.
Originally Posted By: Orac

There is no right or wrong answer some religions will answer with things like "it is allah's will" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insha'Allah)

=> Muslims believe that everything is maktub [lit.: written] and so whatever it is one wishes to do, will only occur if it is within God's plan.

Well one has to have an experience of God or an understanding of God then to understand such an idea.
Freedom of thought around this kind of statement is going to be bound to the beliefs and judgments of what someone thinks God is, or what they believe the other person is, regarding his or her relationship with God.
IF one has no experience of God (personally speaking) then that person may make an assumption of what God is according to the assumption one makes about the other person, alternately carrying a judgment about their perspective having taken a stance in judgment and personal belief about the subject at hand.
If one has a judgment regarding the sensibility or personality of another, which corresponds to the personal value system assumed by that person making the judgment call, then that persons free will will only go so far as those personal beliefs and understanding of reality.
Originally Posted By: Orac

Some christian religions say god made man special not just in his image but with true free will so we as humans can defy god sure he can kill us or torture us into submission but he can not control us so he gave up his omnipotent control of us. The usual extension of this is to see who is good and evil and thus free will was given to us to test us.

The question is what do you believe?

It's what you make it. Underlying that relative aspect, is an unqualified field of an infinite potential, consciousness waiting to be explored and made into something. (relatively speaking)
Originally Posted By: Orac

Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle

It's what you make it. Underlying that relative aspect, is an unqualified field of potential consciousness waiting to be explored and made into something. (relatively speaking)


Again you avoid answering the question is it your reality or your gods reality be specific and how is that reality defined?

I did not avoid the question.
Beliefs change. What doesn't change is what underlies these changing value systems within the ego's identification with any single thought pointed back at ones self trying to mold ones self into a single idea or thought.
If you have an experience of ones self as a something and then that changes do you accept that you are one or the other, or both, or when your experience changes and you find yourself thinking something different do you become that?
You have experienced being 5 and 6, are you that person now or is that person that was... changed into what you are now?

My experience of Self is that it is not bound by these thoughts and ideas. My experience of God is that it is much bigger than even that Idea or any containment in definition.
So relative to who I am, then sets up the potential for answering the question of Who's will we are discussing.
IF there is a Unity of all matter, time and space, and that is all One, then there is only the subsequent identities that exist within the relative boundaries of thought when an identification is taken with that thought.

IF you will yourself into an box, your will is subject to the limitations of that box and all supporting laws you/consciousness creates in order to maintain the box and your identification with it.

In other words.. your scope of thought and sight is bound by your beliefs in who you think you are. If you never know there is something to look for or experience you may never discover anything other than what you accept are your boundaries in experience as the real world.

Imagination then is often stifled, where anything that doesn't fit within the accepted parameters of belief are unconsciously ignored.

Fortunately we are not so self absorbed in the dream state or the subconscious, which is why we are often able to change our beliefs when the mind catches a glimpse of something that is outside of the box.
If we are not so rigid with our thinking, we do not stand in one place and we do not stagnate in only one single thought or idea of self/Self for an entire lifetime. Generally speaking we tend to grasp onto a handful that we think we can control, and that ages our bodies and creates the experience of death.
Originally Posted By: Orac

You really don't like being on the end of questions do you?

I have no problem with questions. I don't necessarily get excited when I know that the questions are merely posed to see if I will follow bread crumbs that are laid down by the person asking, to see if I will follow the crumbs to their expected outcome when they have already made up their mind to the answer and aren't really interested in hearing what I have to say as an answer to their question.
Originally Posted By: Orac
Are you uncomfortable in what you believe or don't you know what you believe or is your whole stance just a pose ...

Like I said, beliefs change. Reason being is that consciousness cannot be contained. We move thru experience as consciousness moves thru time and space according to the direction it takes within a single or multiple lifetimes.
I'm comfortable with my experiences and awareness of this reality. Choice to recognize what is, and Who I am, is going to be subjective and relative to whatever experience I am having.. There is a constant within the relative changes that I see myself and experience my self as and so I don't fear that any choice I make changes that or that any experience adds to or diminishes that.
Originally Posted By: Orac
these questions shouldn't be hard I am more than happy to answer them if you want.

There you go. You ask me the question and you already have the answers.
So really... why'd you ask me?
Originally Posted By: Orac

I should also say Rev K answered these questions for me without hesitation (if in a somewhat verbose way) when I put them to him and it makes understanding his religion much easier :-)
Seems anytime someone speaks in excess of the direct expected answer one become verbose. Science is verbose when it comes to describing the universe and reality yet science is allowed this type of transgression.
However concerning the Reverend:
Yeah, his ideas conform to the typical box everyone makes around God, religion, spirituality and the popular new age definitions of self while pandering to the good side of everyone so as to not lose the attention on himself.
So I can see where you feel he answered the questions the way you would have answered them for him, (altho in a verbose manner) and in turn feel you got what you wanted, with ease and without hesitation.

Maybe I will answer your questions with some satisfaction when I bend to the will of your ideas and come into conformity with your beliefs and judgments about me as well?

C'est la vie..
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#46469 - 12/04/12 11:33 PM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Orac Offline
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Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
That is a very long winded answer that says absolutely nothing.

It's something that fascinates me with some religions they hide behind a wall of bullshit and try to convince me that in that bullshit is some deeper meaning.

Muslim as a faith is very upfront for example free will is illusionary there god is omnipotent and you can not defy god anything that happens is gods will.

Christianity and many other religions are not so upfront about it because they seem to want to hide whether there religion embodies free will or not so you get wallls of text that say and mean nothing like what you have put forward.

The base question in a religious sense of free will is simple condition can you defy god. If you can not defy god then you have no free will.

An animal in a zoo has free will it has control limits imposed on it but if the keeper walks in the cage it might just turn around and bite them.

So perhaps try to make your answer simple do you take the muslim view of god or are we caged animals it doesn't require a long verbose text wall answer and I assure you noone probably cares?

Lets try getting a straight answer to question 1 before we move onto question 2.


Edited by Orac (12/04/12 11:33 PM)
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#46472 - 12/04/12 11:52 PM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Orac]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Orac, again you ask the question--I assume you are asking TT--about the god-hypothesis
Originally Posted By: Orac
...What do you believe? you write
...to which TT just responded. Yes, in addition to a whole lot of words, he added
Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle
It's what you make it ...
I agree with you, this is not clear.

Me? I want to know what the "its" is all about. Does it mean "god is what we make it"? Or does it mean "our belief is what we make it"?

To add to my confusion TT adds
Quote:
Underlying that relative aspect, is an unqualified field of potential consciousness waiting to be explored and made into something. (relatively speaking)
Here, sorry to say, all I read are words without meaning.

Then you mentioned that, though I did use a lot of words: I did, without hesitation, give you an answer about the god-hypothesis that makes sense to me that you could now at least understand.
===========================================
As a process theologian, I am not a fixed-position thinking kind of thinker. I am a unitheist--one who sees the universe as it is NOW, but who wills it to evolve and unfold as that which is good, orderly and desirable, beautiful and true.

As a unitheist I always I like to keep my options open--even to atheism.

However, I do value things that are morally good, orderly and, desirable, How about you, Orac? Are you a fixed-position thinking kind of atheist? What do atheists value?

Meanwhile, I write to make it clear that I do not believe in a god who is a human-like and three-dimensional entity with dimensions. Take note of my new signature:

GÕD~Tilde(~) will help guide us to Good/Opportune & Desirable UNIVERSE ...
[More on this]
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#46476 - 12/05/12 12:34 AM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Revlgking]
Orac Offline
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Registered: 05/20/11
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Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
I have no real position on religion Rev K it is all very new to me as you know and I am working my way through it.

What I find frustrating in my search is text walls that really mean nothing such as what TT offers as well as many religious people I have encountered. I am glad you also find it is a pile of text that says nothing I was starting to think it was just me although Bill S said the same thing.

You write rather expansive as well but at least you do not seek to hide meaning in that you engage openly with me and will answer my questions.

I understand your belief as I do muslims lets see if I get it right


"You believe god is a omnipotent being beyond space and time and even really beyond our understanding. He created this reality so we could become worthy to live with god in his kingdom and only those who are worthy will be chosen to reside with god in his kingdom. Thus all people should strive to be worthy to enter the kingdom of god"

It's less clear to me in your religion what happens to those who fail to become worthy .. perhaps hell or maybe they just cease to exist you have never really talked about that.


In science openess is easily defined as the ability to answer questions that is because you have to give up control to answer questions you have no way of knowing what will be asked.

You notice TT, Paul and PreEarth and many of that ilk do not like answering questions because they can not control a discussion.

Ask me a science question for example and I am more than happy to answer or at least discuss because science needs to be self consistant. There should be no question you could ask that would contradict what is known but there are questions we can't give you a answer to because we simply don't know.

You are open to me because you allow me to ask whatever questions I want and again as per your answer above as you give a similar answer to science that there are some questions you can't answer because you do not know.

I suspect your beliefs don't struggle with science because your GOD is beyond science and any human understanding where others like Paul for example seem to need science to be consistant with there beliefs and GOD.

There is a fundemental problem with human free will and an omipotent god they are completely incompatable and people can't talk your way around the issue. Muslims resolve the issue by acknowledging we don't have true free will and if my understanding of your religion is right then your religion resolves the issue humans have free will but only in this reality so your god boxes our current existance say like a zoo. I am guessing your view is our soul is outside this reality and is our true self our bodies are the confinement of our soul in this reality.

If I am understanding your religion as above then it passes my personal first test of a religion that it is self consistant. I won't say I don't have issues which I am happy to discuss if you want but at least it is self consistant a test which so many religions I look at fail.


Edited by Orac (12/05/12 03:04 AM)
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#46481 - 12/05/12 03:25 AM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Orac]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: Orac
That is a very long winded answer that says absolutely nothing.
Yeah, pretty amazing huh.

Like handing Tolstoy to a three year old who insists on instant understanding and gratification

Originally Posted By: Orac

It's something that fascinates me with some religions they hide behind a wall of bullshit and try to convince me that in that bullshit is some deeper meaning.

I've had similar experiences with Religion. Even Science. You try to ask a scientist why the universe exists and they can't give you a simple answer.

Hate when that happens.. mad
Originally Posted By: Orac

Muslim as a faith is very upfront for example free will is illusionary there god is omnipotent and you can not defy god anything that happens is gods will.

They also believe anyone who is not a Muslim is an infadel (lost soul/retard)... So when they strap a bomb to themselves and walk into a crowd, they can say God made them do it. crazy

Originally Posted By: Orac

Christianity and many other religions are not so upfront about it because they seem to want to hide whether there religion embodies free will or not so you get wallls of text that say and mean nothing like what you have put forward.

Not true. If you ask a question they will give you their reason, but like all religions its a matter of what they have been told and not from direct experience.

The wall is usually put up by the person listening that has no interest in what they say and are just looking for a way to make a comparison between what they don't like and do like. A religionist wants you to believe, and the listener wants the religionist to prove their religion.
So while the religionist speaks the other really doesn't listen.
Originally Posted By: Orac

The base question in a religious sense of free will is simple condition can you defy god. If you can not defy god then you have no free will.

You would have to define God and what God can do. If you have no experience of the God in question, then you just assume they are full of bullshit.

Besides I haven't an interest in speaking of free will in a religious sense. Not my thing.
Religion is not my thing. Spirituality is.
Originally Posted By: Orac

An animal in a zoo has free will it has control limits imposed on it but if the keeper walks in the cage it might just turn around and bite them.

The cage pretty much represents everyone's limitations due to the personal belief system. Imagine if man didn't have a cage. Maybe he/she would bite God wink
Originally Posted By: Orac

So perhaps try to make your answer simple do you take the muslim view of god
No
Originally Posted By: Orac
or are we caged animals

No.
Originally Posted By: Orac
it doesn't require a long verbose text wall answer
even if the question is long, verbose and has a wall of disinterest?
Originally Posted By: Orac
and I assure you noone probably cares?

Already got that. Pretty much figured all of this as entertainment.. wink
Originally Posted By: Orac

Lets try getting a straight answer to question 1 before we move onto question 2.

Sorry.. what was the question again? whistle

Perhaps you could simplify it without all the religious connotations and the air of disinterest. cool



Originally Posted By: Revlgking

Me? I want to know what the "its" is all about. Does it mean "god is what we make it"? Or does it mean "our belief is what we make it"?
I believe the question referred to reality and what it is.
Originally Posted By: Orac

To add to my confusion TT adds
Quote:
Underlying that relative aspect, is an unqualified field of potential consciousness waiting to be explored and made into something. (relatively speaking)
Here, sorry to say, all I read are words without meaning.

Yep. Gotta have the experience first before any real understanding occurs.


Originally Posted By: Orac
I have no real position on religion Rev K it is all very new to me as you know and I am working my way through it.....

..snork.. grin


_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#46483 - 12/05/12 03:49 AM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Orac]
pokey Offline
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Registered: 08/22/07
Posts: 84
Orac:

"The base question in a religious sense of free will is simple condition can you defy god. If you can not defy god then you have no free will."

My understanding is:

1) God is omnipotent.
2) God has given man free will.

If man does have free will then God is allowing the man to do anything the man can, so how can the man "defy" when no restrictions are placed on the man?

I hope that is both clear and non expansive.

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#46484 - 12/05/12 04:13 AM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Orac Offline
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Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle

I've had similar experiences with Religion. Even Science. You try to ask a scientist why the universe exists and they can't give you a simple answer.


We are upfront about it we have no idea why it exists we don't even offer conjecture what we don't do is offer a wall of text avoiding the question.


Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle

They also believe anyone who is not a Muslim is an infadel (lost soul/retard)... So when they strap a bomb to themselves and walk into a crowd, they can say God made them do it. crazy


I am not here to pass judgement on them there are plenty of religious pedophiles should we brand all religious people on the behaviour of some in their ranks. The catholic church might have a problem if we did that as well.


Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle

The wall is usually put up by the person listening that has no interest in what they say and are just looking for a way to make a comparison between what they don't like and do like. A religionist wants you to believe, and the listener wants the religionist to prove their religion.
So while the religionist speaks the other really doesn't listen.

You would have to define God and what God can do. If you have no experience of the God in question, then you just assume they are full of bullshit.


The question is not hard free will I have defined as the ability to defy god so if whatever GOD is in your belief if your god is omnipotent you have a problem something has to give either GOD limits his omnipotentance in relation to humans or humans don't have free will.

Not really much to discuss everything is defined we have only 3 things

GOD = feel free to make your own version and understanding
FREE WILL = ability to defy god
OMNIPOTENT = Ability to do and control anything and everything

Should hardly take a wall of text to answer the question


Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle

Besides I haven't an interest in speaking of free will in a religious sense. Not my thing.
Religion is not my thing. Spirituality is.


Likewise I have no interest in spirituality I personally view it as a hidding place for confused individuals to gutless to face up to the real questions of life. The spiritual types will say I just don't get it but I am very logical comes from a communist enforced view of life :-)

Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle

The cage pretty much represents everyone's limitations due to the personal belief system. Imagine if man didn't have a cage. Maybe he/she would bite God wink


And thats the issue thats at the heart of the question because defy means exactly that and the issue that follows from that is what happens if you do ... do you go to Hell, get killed etc which interests me.
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#46485 - 12/05/12 04:19 AM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: pokey]
Orac Offline
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Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Originally Posted By: pokey

My understanding is:

1) God is omnipotent.
2) God has given man free will.

If man does have free will then God is allowing the man to do anything the man can, so how can the man "defy" when no restrictions are placed on the man?

I hope that is both clear and non expansive.


Yep thats my understanding of Rev K's religion which sort of matches that but thats not how all religions see it in the above for example I gave you how muslims see it.

The reason it interests me is that it defines what our reality is according to that religion and there is usually a consequence of defying god if you are allowed such as going to hell.

By extension it should also give you a basis for why good and evil exist because an omnipotent god could have just swatted evil out of existance.

I do find it weird that so many religions struggle with such a simple question it really shouldn't be hard.


Edited by Orac (12/05/12 04:36 AM)
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#46487 - 12/05/12 04:52 AM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Orac]
pokey Offline
Member

Registered: 08/22/07
Posts: 84
Orac: "...and there is usually a consequence of defying god if you are allowed such as going to hell."

Yes, and even if you have free will/choice but make the "wrong" choice there probably are consequences.


Orac: "...give you a basis for why good and evil exist because an omnipotent god could have just swatted evil out of existance."

Yes, possibly life is a test to see if man can make the "right" choices, and be rewarded. And avoid hell.

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#46488 - 12/05/12 05:13 AM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Orac]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Orac you say
Quote:
I have no real position on religion Rev K, it is all very new to me as you know and I am working my way through it.
OK! If that is your position, I think of you as a non-theist. The late Christopher Hitchens, who wrote, god is not GREAT--How Religion Poisons Everything, was a non-theist.

Now, let me ask: What is your position on morals and ethics? In other words do you choose to be a moral, ethical and loving person?
=========================================================
Orac, you say of me that I believe that god is an omnipotent being beyond space and time and even really beyond our understanding.
Quote:
Not quite true.

Keep in mind that I always reserve the right to revise my will, so let me put it this way: For me, GÕD~is all Being--that is, omnipotence, omnscience and omnipresence. I also include the material cosmos, which is the subject of the sciences. BTW, I think of the all the philosophies (religions), sciences and arts as operating within GÕD--that is, within total physical, mental and spiritual existence.

I use the special symbol GÕD to hold on to the idea that we are not talking about god in the old sense of the word found in the Bible. GÕD is not a person, a human-like entity.

I use an Õ with a tilde above it to indicate that we can choose to be and to be at one with GÕD. IMO, freely choosing to be at one with all Being inspires and empowers us to be moral, ethical and loving beings--GÕD-filled persons, as was Jesus and many other great prophets and teachers.

EVOLVING IS A HEAVENLY PROCESS
Once we make this choice there is no need to struggle. Evolving and becoming at one with GÕD--free of all pain, suffering and sorrow--comes as natural as breathing. Wouldn't all sane people choose this way?

DEVOLVING IS A HELLISH PROCESS
As indicated above, because of the principle of FREE WILL, we are free, at any time, to reject this free gift of infinity and eternity.

We are free to choose not to be, to devolve and become extinct. Would any sane person ever make such a choice?
==============================
Thanks for this comment, Orac. You write
Quote:
If I am understanding your religion as above then it passes my personal first test of a religion that it is self consistent. I won't say I don't have issues which I am happy to discuss if you want but at least it is self consistent a test which so many religions I look at fail.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#46489 - 12/05/12 06:01 AM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Revlgking]
Orac Offline
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Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
I am happy I was able to at least grasp the basics of your religion but before I move on to answer your other questions can I ask when you talk of a "HELLISH PROCESS" is that the classic movie hell with a devil and eternal fire or a more expansive definition like meaning other than in the kingdom of god?


Originally Posted By: revlgking

Now, let me ask: What is your position on morals and ethics? In other words do you choose to be a moral, ethical and loving person?


Strictly my morals and ethics in my formative years were imposed on me by the state instruments of my country as was were where I lived, my education and what I would do as a job.

Many in the West would say Russia had no morals or ethics but that is far far from the truth, Russian leadership worried extensively about moral decay because untimately it lead to inefficency or worse lack of faith and following of the system.

The only thing you were forbidden to do was choose your own morals or ethics the state standard was imposed on you.

You will still find that opposition to illicit drug taking and homosexuality are far lower in Russia and former russian states than for example in the USA which may or may not surprise some.

These sorts of comparisons are always difficult but lets take drug use for example which has some decent studies from World Health Organisation and was recently animated by the Guardian newspaper site

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2012/jul/02/drug-use-map-world


You may also be aware that russia is in the process of making federal anti-gay laws because it is demanded by many citizens and supported by many in power

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/30/russian-parliament-federal-anti-gay-law


These are all hangovers of the morality and ethics that were enforced on citizens by the state.


So to be honest with you morals and ethics were not high on my agenda while growing up especially since because of my racial background my masters already had big issues with me and really a complete lack of trust.


I am not sure how to answer your loving question because of the oppression in those years and my memories are sort of very distorted over the years. One always asks were things really as bad as you remember because one always wants to remember ones homeland fondly if that makes sense.

Perhaps the only real answer would be to take a trip to Tibet and ask a local are they a loving person. Love is a scarce commodity in an oppressed society.


Edited by Orac (12/05/12 06:03 AM)
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#46492 - 12/05/12 06:33 AM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Orac]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: Orac


We are upfront about it we have no idea why it exists we don't even offer conjecture what we don't do is offer a wall of text avoiding the question.

Seems to be a sense of equality there between the two, IF neither know what they are talking about, (regardless of whether one pretends to know and the other doesn't).



Originally Posted By: Orac

The question is not hard free will I have defined as the ability to defy god so if whatever GOD is in your belief if your god is omnipotent you have a problem something has to give either GOD limits his omnipotentance in relation to humans or humans don't have free will.

Well you're not speaking of any kind of God I experience, so I guess I can't enter into this conversation to any satisfaction if I need to fit into this box of yours.
Originally Posted By: Orac

Not really much to discuss everything is defined we have only 3 things

GOD = feel free to make your own version and understanding
FREE WILL = ability to defy god
OMNIPOTENT = Ability to do and control anything and everything
Again outside of my experience, there is nothing separate from God. All choices are God's Choices. God there, God here... illusions of separation mean God is some thing rather than all that is.
Descriptions and measures of God, illusions of separation from God. Versions and understandings, varying viewpoints of perception based on whatever cage is built by the belief systems of the ego.

Originally Posted By: Orac

Should hardly take a wall of text to answer the question

Takes direct experience to understand the answer.
Walls are built by those who need to filter perceptions thru holes in their walls.


Originally Posted By: Orac


Likewise I have no interest in spirituality I personally view it as a hidding place for confused individuals to gutless to face up to the real questions of life. The spiritual types will say I just don't get it but I am very logical comes from a communist enforced view of life :-)

Well you know communism maybe, but spirituality is hardly a separation from life. Life is not measured between birth and death. Birth and death are only changes in clothing.
Originally Posted By: Orac

Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle

The cage pretty much represents everyone's limitations due to the personal belief system. Imagine if man didn't have a cage. Maybe he/she would bite God wink


And thats the issue thats at the heart of the question because defy means exactly that and the issue that follows from that is what happens if you do ... do you go to Hell, get killed etc which interests me.
Hell is living in the cage of self imposed boundaries derived from illusions of belief.
Remove the beliefs and you begin to get a glimpse of reality.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#46504 - 12/05/12 11:35 PM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Orac]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: Orac
... before I move on to answer your other questions, can I ask when you talk of a "HELLISH PROCESS"
Yes. Now let me add
Quote:
My short answer to your question about heaven, hell, God and the devil is this: I do not accept the beliefs of the Biblical literalists.

The ideas we have about heaven and hell, in modern times, come more from artists and the poets, like Dante.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven
===================================
--the Old English (OE), heofon, related to the freedom of the sky.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell
=================================
-- OE, helle, in a time when people believed the earth is flat, meant a place of concealment--a cell under the earth.
Orac, how do you feel about revealing the roots of your family? Are you of Russian ancestry?

Now, may I explain what I meant when I asked you if you are a "loving" person, or not?
Quote:
The Jewish, or what Christians call the Old Testament was written in Hebrew. The Christian New Testament was written in Greek. In vocabulary, it is similar to Latin.

But take note: All modern western languages are built on a foundation of Greek and Latin.

BTW, how much have you read of the Hebrew and/or English Bible?

Meanwhile, anyone who, just out of curiosity, is interested understanding the Bible needs to know about http://www.biblegateway.com/

Here you can get several modern English translations of any passage of the Bible.

With this in mind let us read what Paul, the great promoter of the message of Jesus, said about the kind of "love" Jesus preached.

Here is what Paul wrote:
1 Corinthians 13, which I will put in my next post to you.

At the time Paul wrote, in the Greek language there were three basic words for love--eros, philia & agape: EROS--stood for physical, emotional and erotic love; PHILIA--was for friendship. From it we get Philadelphia, philosophy, philanthropy and the like. The third was word AGAPE. It means to give "good will" just because it is the right thing to do, even if you do not feel like it.

When Jesus asked his disciples to 'love' their enemies ... he did not ask us to like them, erotically or be friends. Agape is a neutral, but very important, quality.

_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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