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#32627 - 11/13/09 07:57 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
Quote:
As Albert Einstein said:
All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree


A cynic might remark "Did he say that before or after he left his first wife after achieving his celebrity status ?".

However the central point here is that Einstein's statement is metaphysical and alludes to "the God of Spinoza" as being "creative Nature itself". But such a stance, on the "orderliness of creation" effectively precluded him from accepting the probabilistic arguments of quantum mechanics. Much of his subsequent life was a futile struggle to support the "God doesn't play dice" argument.
Therefore, to cite Einstein as an authority on the co-extension of "science" and "religion" is barking up Einstein's "wrong tree".

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#32917 - 12/15/09 06:23 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: socratus
Where and Who is God ? .......
Good dialogue, everyone. If the following comment on the topic is a repeat, I apologize:

Socratus, I know you mean well in raising this question, but, for me, it is a question that I, as a unitheist, would never ask. www.unitheist.org

IMO, GOD is not a some 'who' who exists some 'where', like you and I exist. For me, to think of divine Being, the infinite and eternal Now in this way, is to create an idol with the mind.

When Richard Dawkins asks theists: "What and where is your evidence for 'God'" he is asking the same kind of question we have as the title of this topic. In effect he is asking: "Who is, and where is, your God? Introduce me!"

If he asked me this, my answer would be: "Richard your question is like that asked by very young children: 'Daddy! Mommy! If God made us and the world, who made God?'

"Children need to more mature before they can even ask mature questions and understand mature answers. I trust you are mature and know what I mean when I say: GOD, like the whole of Nature, or Reality, is the every Who and the every Where in which you and I exist.

"Now, as a mature thinkers, surely we can turn on all our physical, mental and spiritual senses. Therefore, to you I say relax, enjoy--and as the scientist you are--continue to help all of us explore this self-evident panentheistic truth. If you prefer to call this truth Nature and/or Reality, go ahead. In addition, I like to use the succinct term GOD. I give you the same freedom of the use of language that I ask of you." smile


Edited by Revlgking (12/15/09 06:54 AM)
Edit Reason: Always a good idea
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#32919 - 12/15/09 09:23 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
Zephir Offline
Superstar

Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
God is background universe noise

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#32931 - 12/15/09 07:34 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Zephir]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: Zephir
God is background universe noise
Which of course, like 'God', does not exist grin
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#32932 - 12/15/09 10:14 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
Zephir Offline
Superstar

Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Which of course, like 'God', does not exist
Why do you mean? You can watch Him on TV..


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#33950 - 04/15/10 06:37 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Warren, let's bring up this thread by Socratus:

And thanks from your essay from which I quote
Originally Posted By: Warren
Quote:
...Actually we do know there was not--nor is, an exclusive, eternal nothingness--a complete and absolute nothingness, which is void of energy or change, time or space. Such a nothingness would have precluded our existence. There must have been something more. The problem is where did existence come from? ...

Pardon my edit of your quote. http://www.unitheist.org/cosmogony.html

Warren, could it be that the answer to your question is: It is a creation of the ego? Meanwhile, Gd in me salutes Gd in you and in all that is.

Together we can experience GOD--that which is around, in and through all that IS, which we call 'existence'.

Note that I use the (zero) when I write about god, in me. When I write about god, in the All that IS, I use O.

By the way, recently, I talked about this way of communicating the god-concept--minus the baggage--with an imam (a Muslim cleric), who I heard give a lecture to a group of us at the church I attend, who are interested in understanding Islam, and other religions. He teaches a course in comparative religion at a university near Toronto.

I was very pleased when he said: "May I use your idea in my lectures? I like what it communicates--of course I will give you credit."

I now find that I no longer need to say: I believe in Gd (in me), or in GOD (beyond me). Belief implies doubt. Now the god-concept is as real to me as is my own existence within existence. Carl Jung, in a famous BBC YouTube clip was asked if he believed in God. He said: "I do not believe in God; I know God is..."
http://www.google.ca/search?q=Carl+Jung,+I+know+God+is&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=bTy&rls=com.mandriva:en-US:official&source=univ&tbs=vid:1&tbo=u&ei=yrHGS9LLIsKC8gan3_H2Cg&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CCMQqwQwAw
(See link # 4)

BTW, like the child-like question: If God made everything, who made God? your question: Where did existence come from? is not really a proper question. It is like asking: Where do lanes go when the road sign reads: THIS LANE ENDS? Or: Do cars know how fast they are going?

IMO, a most important question is: What are the practical implications of knowing that GOD and reality are one and the same?


Edited by Revlgking (04/15/10 06:41 AM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#33974 - 04/17/10 07:21 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Welcome back Rev.

Here in Oz we are being visited by Karen Armstrong who has published a book "The Human Quest for the Divine". I believe she is Canadian and a religious leader/researcher of some sort. I heard an interview with her in which she rejected the notion of divinity and states that all reigious texts were written by humans themselves. Of course I have no problem with this point of view, however Ms. Armstrong seemed to also say that whilst she sympathises with this idea, she appears to have a religious belief as well.

How can this be so? Surely the whole point of religion (of any sort) is to ensure the the followers of certain rites, dogma and ideas, and have great privileges and entitlements now, and even after death. All religious beliefs contain some measure of teaching that our life on this planet is not all there is, and, providing we have been 'good' we will have life in the hereafter.

It surely is simply not possible to blithely decide that the afterlife sounds good without accepting the existence of the supernatural realm of which it is a part. Or is it possible to pick out the good bits when the difficult bits take too much effort?

Rev-I also suggest in answer to your question, that in fact there are no practical implications in knowing that god and reality are the same. It is a matter of belief. You would believe that you know that it is so and act accordingly--- I would believe that I know it is not and not do much about it.

We are not able to prove who is correct!

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#33980 - 04/17/10 06:26 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
"Rev-I also suggest in answer to your question, that in fact there are no practical implications in knowing that god and reality are the same."

Ellis, no practical implications for you, of course, because you do not accept, as I do, that god and reality are, IMO, one and the same. Like Buddhism (a non-theistic religion), Carl Jung, Spinoza--Einstein admired his theology--and others before him, I think of god, not as a theistic and supernatural being outside of existence, or reality, but as Spirit within, through and around the total physical, mental and spiritual reality, or existence. This being so, with the help of the sciences I use all my senses to know all that I am capable of knowing.

With this in mind, may I assume we can agree that--with the help of the sciences--for you, also, knowing things about reality does have practical value for you.

You said: "It is a matter of belief."

Is reality just a matter of belief for you?

"You would believe that you know that it is so and act accordingly--I would believe that I know it is not and not do much about it."
you said.

Believe that I know? Belief implies doubt. I know that I know. What I know may be incomplete, and even wrong. But at this moment, I know that I am sensing reality--to which I give the very inclusive acronym, GOD. If you prefer to stick with the word 'reality', it is OK by me.

"We are not able to prove who is correct!" You said.

Correct? About what? Do you reject, or deny, reality? Is reality just a matter of faith for you?
============================================
BTW, I met Karen Armstrong at a lecture she gave in Toronto some time ago--good stuff--and I have some of her books. I think she was born in England and was a Catholic nun. Quite a scholar. Very interested in social justice. Worth a Google search on her name.

ABOUT HER CHARTER OF COMPASSION
===============================
http://charterforcompassion.org/



Edited by Revlgking (04/17/10 06:33 PM)
Edit Reason: Always a good practice
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#33983 - 04/18/10 01:20 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Rev- What is reality?

I am sure that we have all had the experience of discussing an event or happening with another person who was present at the time only to discover that their perception is totally different to ours.

How can this be? Maybe we exist within our own perception of reality and we live parallel lives with intersecting realities. Sometimes our realities may merge and complement-- other times they may withdraw, oppose or disintegrate as our own reality is challenged.

Who knows!

And the thing is that I actually don't really mind the not-knowing-- and indeed Ms Armstrong discusses that as a characteristic trait of many atheists-- that is that the unknown has not the same fear for them as it has for believers. When you know that this life is all you have you try to enjoy it.... and understand it too. There are enough solvable mysteries in the Universe to think about without fretting about the possibility of the existence of the divine in any of its manifestations.

Of course this does not preclude others from pondering the Universe from the point of view of unravelling its intention. I just don't see much point in that.

Reality with or without belief is a personal decision I think.

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#33985 - 04/18/10 04:21 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: Ellis
Rev- What is reality?
For me, reality is living, moving and having our being in the eternal now which we know as the space/time continuum. It includes nature, existence, presence, and all life as it has evolved so far. It is all that is good, orderly and desirable--in brief, GOD. It is in this eternal Now, that we can begin to enjoy and truly experience getting to know this Reality.

We will begin to do so by choosing to connect with and/or tuning into this Reality with all the levels of our consciousness which, I feel, will enable us to continue to evolve so that we will eventually become totally free from all physical, mental and spiritual restraints.

FOR ANYONE, SPIRITUAL FREEDOM IS A YES OR NO AWAY
It has taken millions of years for us to evolve to the level where more and more of us are free enough to know that we are aware, self-consciousness, or spiritual beings. At any point, without any sense of being judged by anyone, we are free to say yes or no to this FREEDOM, to take the quantum leap to evolve, exponentially, or not. It is up to each of us to make make the choice for ourselves, when we are ready.


Edited by Revlgking (04/18/10 04:32 AM)
Edit Reason: Always a good practice
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#33986 - 04/18/10 06:38 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
For me, reality is living, moving and having our being in the eternal now which we know as the space/time continuum.It is in this eternal Now, that we can begin to enjoy and truly experience getting to know this Reality.
It has taken millions of years for us to evolve to the level where more and more of us are free enough to know that we are aware, self-consciousness, or spiritual beings.

Edit Reason: Always a good practice


Millions of years to come to a thought, preceding a continuation of evolution, which may sweep away the ideas of this or any other determination, predicated upon a practice of edited or changed reasons which qualify ones self in the ability to know, describe and change the ideas about something to call God.

The claim to be a spiritual being living in illusions of change, with an evolution placed before ones self as the reason for not living as spirit but instead an imprisoned spiritual being locked in a reality called freedom but at the same time not free until more evolution takes place.

Not exactly what the spiritual masters describe as reality. More like what the Pharisees and Sadducees prescribed as reality.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#33987 - 04/18/10 01:54 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
BTW, Ellis, in answering your question, unlike the Pope, I make no claim to being infallible in matters of "faith and morals".

Perhaps we should forget the Pope and consult the "Ascended Masters" http://www.greatdreams.com/masters/ascended-masters.htm

Or is all religion "junk religion"? Don't answer that! It could lead to bloodshed! grin

You say, "And the thing is that I actually don't really mind the not-knowing-- and indeed Ms Armstrong discusses that as a characteristic trait of many atheists-- that is, that the unknown has not the same fear for them as it has for believers...

Fear? In facing the unknown my dominant emotion is not one of fear; it is one of frustration that, though I am extremely curious, I do not seem to have the mental capacity to really understand things like calculus and quantum physics, the Large Hadron Collider (LHC), Higgs boson and the like, which I think are keys to understanding even what scientists are talking about when they speak of other dimensions.

Unlike you, I do "mind the not knowing". Are there geniuses around who really know what they are doing and that they are on to something real and of practical value? Or is it just "junk science"? Is there are a genius around who is capable of making quantum physics, etc., understandable to curious people like me?

All Posters, giving you the right to be different, and as wrong as I could be, I ask: What is your take on reality? Or do you care? And I do not require that you agree with me, OK? smile
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#33989 - 04/18/10 05:47 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

All Posters, giving you the right to be different, and as wrong as I could be, I ask: What is your take on reality? Or do you care? And I do not require that you agree with me, OK? smile

Assuming the capability without your particular authority to hand over what is rightly available to all...
The frustration of following the ideas of comparison created by the ego where you measure yourself and others into ideas of right and wrong, and where you assume the ability to be wrong while retaining the right to judge others as being wrong is what keeps you or anyone else from moving past or beyond judgments and frustration.
To be truly open, nothing at first glance would/could be wrong. Neither you nor anyone else would find it necessary to ignore the things that are judged and found to be thru determination, frustrating.
There would be greater peace of mind and more love in the experience of everything and your mind would actually find its way to the now and the perfection of the creator in appreciation of his creation (That'd be you) as the present moment.
Reality without conditions is the absolute, and it resides within the realities of isolated perceptions that are egoic, judgmental and personal. It is the peace which passeth all understanding...
When the mind is immersed in the present moment such as the innocence of the mind of a child without preconceived notions of what is good or bad, right or wrong, each moment is fully experienced.
When the mind is full of unconscious ideas, such as fear of suffering, oppression, wrongdoing, injustice, pain etc. the internal radar seeks to find these things and conscious awareness is predisposed by this collection of ideas based on the past. The mind is so busy jumping back and forth from the past to the present seeking to project an ideal future that it cannot and will not reside itself within the present moment of reality to see, touch, taste or fully appreciate the potential of the now. Instead reality is a projection of the past and never of the fullness of now.

Once there was a farmer who had one son and one horse. One day his horse ran away. When his neighbors heard about it, they came to comfort him. Such bad luck- were sorry your only horse ran away. they said.

Who is to say whether its good or bad, replied the farmer. All I can say for sure is, my horse has run away. Time will tell whether this is good or bad. His neighbors just shook their heads and walk away.

A week later, his horse returned home- along with 20 wild horses!!!

His neighbors, upon hearing the news, came to congratulate him. What good luck you have. Not only did your horse return, but he brought with him 20 more. Such a lucky man you are!

Who is to say whether its good or bad- All I know is my horse has come home along with 20 wild horses- and leave it at that. Again, his neighbors shook their heads and scoffed - Of course its good luck you old fool! Twenty new horses is obviously good luck!

The next week the farmers son was out riding in the pen with the new horses, fell off and broke his leg. Upon hearing the news, the neighbors came over to comfort the farmer. You were right- Those wild horses were not a sign of good fortune- now your son has broken his leg- and right before the harvest. Such bad luck!

Again the farmer replied- Why do you constantly want to label something as good or bad. Why cant you just say, My son has broken his leg while riding a horse and leave it at that. Who is to say whether it is good or bad?

Upon hearing this, the neighbors were indignant- Listen old man, to have your son break his leg at this time is unfortunate and a sign of bad luck. You are such a fool to think otherwise.

The following week, an army came to town and drafted all the eligible young men, and sent them off to war in a far away place. They did not take the farmers son on account of his broken leg. Afterwards, the people were heartbroken and came to the farmer in tears- You were right- our sons are gone, well probably never see them again- such bad luck our town has experienced!.

The old farmer (again) said- Why do you continue to insist an event is good or bad? We do not know the end from the beginning. Why cant you just say, Our sons have been drafted, and only time will tell if it is good or not.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#33991 - 04/18/10 06:33 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
ABOUT HIGGS BOSON (2005 VERSION)
http://www.exploratorium.edu/origins/cern/ideas/higgs.html

Do we understand what is the practical value of the above information? Not yet. And, BTW, we do not have the latest info on what the LHC is producing, yet.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#33993 - 04/19/10 01:23 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
For some reason this thread invokes memories of the following story:
http://www.rusbasan.com/Humor/Answering_Machine.html

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#34009 - 04/20/10 12:25 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
FF--- That's hilarious!!! I do hope it is genuine!

However there is a serious point too. At what stage would we stop as we realise that we were in fact talking to an 'invisible friend', and a mechanical one at that!

No I was wrong-- nothing serious--it's just hilarious!

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#34010 - 04/20/10 01:45 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Ellis]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
Ellis ... it is like that ... or, say, like a $cientologist arguing with a Moonie ... or ...

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#34084 - 04/25/10 11:35 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
FF, because I love jokes, please let all of us in on this one. Seriously! What is the joke?


Edited by Revlgking (04/26/10 02:49 AM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#34404 - 05/17/10 08:03 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
Warren Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 45
Loc: Paducah, Kentucky
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Warren, let's bring up this thread by Socratus:

And thanks from your essay from which I quote
Originally Posted By: Warren "...Actually we do know there was not--nor is, an exclusive, eternal nothingness--a complete and absolute nothingness, which is void of energy or change, time or space. Such a nothingness would have precluded our existence. There must have been something more. The problem is where did existence come from?..."
Pardon my edit of your quote. http://www.unitheist.org/cosmogony.html are one and the same?


Thank you for reading and commenting on this. I had already pretty much decided, like you I think, that the question, "Does God exist?" is meaningless in a way. Better would be, "What is the nature of being, or divine creative energy, or what some call God?"

I ended up as seeing the divine as entirely natural, working through and in the natural world. This left the question though of why there is anything. We think of things resulting from other things, so where did the first thing come from? The article you refer to was my effort to try to work through that problem. I'm sure it will be a continuing subject of interest, as it is one of the greatest questions confronting humanity.

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#34642 - 05/31/10 02:04 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Samantha]
haidi marian
Unregistered


I think it's great!

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