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#45969 11/07/12 05:10 AM
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paul Offline OP
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the USA Democrats have won the presidency and the senate !

again.

yes



3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
.
paul #45972 11/07/12 04:54 PM
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Four years ago, when Obama won. I predicted in SAGG
'That America might never get another White President'


.

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"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.


paul #45976 11/07/12 06:50 PM
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There is something to be said for opting for the lesser of two evils, which, if reports are to be believed, seems to be what happened here.

Who believes reports, though?


There never was nothing.
paul #45982 11/08/12 02:19 AM
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Now I can go put the "Obama/Biden" bumper stickers on my car. I was afraid to put them on before the election for fear my car would be vandalized. Obama has done a lot of good for this country. He got us out of Iraq, got kids insured who would otherwise not have been, and made more jobs than Bush got rid of, just to name a few. I think he has been a good president and wish him all success in the future.


If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose

Mike Kremer #45983 11/08/12 02:48 AM
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Quote:
Four years ago, when Obama won. I predicted in SAGG
'That America might never get another White President'


thats a little stiff there mike.

its not about race , its about leadership.

someone who can take an old beaten down neglected people and
slowly but surely make a strong healthy country out of them
again.

something weve been needing for decades.


3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
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Quote:
He got us out of Iraq, got kids insured who would otherwise not have been, and made more jobs than Bush got rid of, just to name a few. I think he has been a good president and wish him all success in the future.


It's almost like the People of the United States think that
this country belong's to them or something!

I think they're right.

and it's showing.


3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
paul #45987 11/08/12 05:06 AM
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Congratulations America!

I think that Obama is much more popular outside the US than within his own country. From here he looks to have done some really good things and he still has a vision for the future. His recent speech after winning said everything that needed to be said I thought.

I would be happy if he were my president!

paul #45994 11/08/12 06:52 PM
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~Nothing wrong with Obama, especially if you are a Democrat.
It seems to me that if the Republicans hope to win in 4 years time...They will have to court the minority partys
and implement some changes in their favour.
America is split 50/50 maybe thats because the Blacks vote for Obama, while the Latino's or Mexicans also vote Obama
as they believe by voting Democrat there is less chance of them being sent back over the border into Mexico.?

Am I correct? If not..could someone explain better.


.

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"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.


Mike Kremer #46007 11/10/12 03:26 AM
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I gather a lot of Republicans are having second thoughts about sending "Latinos and Mexicans" home, since doing that in some places has left the slave labour force severely depleted.

BTW, four years ago, didn't Obama say he was going to close some place in Guantanamo Bay? Did he ever do that? Could it stll be there?


There never was nothing.
Ellis #46011 11/10/12 05:25 AM
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Quote:
I would be happy if he were my president!


after 4 years , he will be available.

I wonder if any president has ever gone on after learning his
trade to practice his trade in other countries?

that would be another first I believe.


3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
paul #46017 11/10/12 01:40 PM
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Quote:
I wonder if any president has ever gone on after learning his trade to practice his trade in other countries?


Might be seen as a good way of Americanising (sorry: Americanizing) the world. I guess that would be seen as a mixed blessing, depending on where the ex-president wanted to go.


There never was nothing.
Bill S. #46020 11/10/12 06:23 PM
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Quote:
BTW, four years ago, didn't Obama say he was going to close some place in Guantanamo Bay? Did he ever do that? Could it stll be there?


Gitmo is a Naval Base , it was built in 1898 , yes 18.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_Naval_Base

Quote:
President Barack Obama has stated that he intends to close down the detention camp and is planning on bringing detainees to the United States to stand trial by the end of his first term in office. On January 22, 2009, three executive orders were issued by President Obama, although only one of these orders explicitly deals with policy directed at the Guantanamo Bay detention camp, which directs the camp's closure within one year. All three could possibly impact the detention center, as well as how any detainee future or present will be held by the United States. While mandating the closure of the detention camp, the naval base as a whole was not subject to the order and will remain operational indefinitely. This plan was thwarted for the time being on May 20, 2009, when the United States Senate voted to keep the prison at Guantanamo Bay open for the foreseeable future and forbid the transfer of any detainees to facilities in the United States.


there are many thing's that President elected again Obama wanted
to accomplish during his first term in office as the President , however in this particular thing the courts rulings have caused difficulties, and due to the fact that no country wants them
in their country either their disposition has not yet been clearly defined.

of course his first 4 years are not yet over , and alot can happen in 2 months.

our People dont want them in the U.S. , would you like to have them in Essex?

perhaps the entities that are complaining about the detainees
detention would like to have them?








3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
paul #46022 11/10/12 06:55 PM
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Quote:
our People dont want them in the U.S. , would you like to have them in Essex?


A little touchy there? Could this be how Pre feels when people ask questions?

Quote:
perhaps the entities that are complaining about the detainees
detention would like to have them?


An understandable sentiment, Paul, but one that would have a more authentic ring to it if the US had not been so reluctant, over the years, to agree to British citizens returning here.


There never was nothing.
paul #46030 11/11/12 12:35 AM
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Reluctantly I have to admit that Obama will never be my President!

We don't have a president of any sort.

Biil S- Good point re reluctant return of detainees who are citizens of other countries.

No one wants those detainees, that's obvious-- so a solution may be to find an island somewhere and ship them to that and leave them alone-- and lo and behold maybe in 200 years time they may have created a society which is democratic, free and at the present moment 10th in financial standing with a population of a bit over 20 million.

Not sure of the relevance of that mini-rant, but the present situation Is disgusting and really you never know what will be the result of an action which must seem doomed to failure even as it provides a solution. Anything would seem to be better than caging fellow humans in chains, in cages for years without end.

Last edited by Ellis; 11/11/12 12:36 AM.
paul #46035 11/11/12 01:39 AM
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When Obama was running for president the first time, he pledged to close the Guantanamo Bay operation and give the people therein a fair trial. That he has not done so is evidence of the massive power of the status quo. I think it is cruel and inhumane to incarcerate people for endless periods with no end in sight and no justice for all. I would like to see Guantanamo closed for good. It is a weight on the conscience of us all.


If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose

Bill S. #46040 11/11/12 04:53 AM
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Quote:
but one that would have a more authentic ring to it if the US had not been so reluctant, over the years, to agree to British citizens returning here.


were they terrorist , or being held under suspicion of being terrorist?

I know the U.S. does some really stupid stuff that defies all logic , but this was done during our never ending / ongoing war against terrorist.

war time prisoners are usually held during the war , unless prisoner trades can be arranged.

and they are questioned to see if they know any usable information.

this has happened in every war I suppose.

because the war on terror is not ever going to end , we have a new scenario , unlike all previous wars.

should we release these suspected terrorist and then they bomb essex the following day , we would be liable for the damages or at least the world would say that it was our fault.

or would we , I suppose that the lawmakers are having a difficult time trying to figure this one out.
















3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
paul #46042 11/11/12 06:35 AM
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Paul- You have hit the nail on the head. It is an impossible task to have a war against terror. What is terror to one person may be the War for Independence for another.

Terror exists in the continual reaction of the terrorised. Who knows what will cause terror? It is a state of fear- something that will differ from person to person, country to country. To have a war against a state of mind is to fight shadows.

Changing the rules to allow continual imprisonment is not the mark of a humane society- no wonder lawmakers with principles are finding it hard to figure out.

Ellis #46044 11/11/12 02:30 PM
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Quote:
It is an impossible task to have a war against terror.


I agree and I have always said that our current ground war
on terror is/was wrong.

the covert agencies such as the well known CIA and others should have handled this is there own specialized manner , as they always have in the past.

it would have been a much quicker , less expensive ( lives lost ) and more effective means of disposing the terrorist and their financial supporters.

but we had a hot dog administration in office who had already
decreased the budget of these agencies in the U.S. prior to 911
effectively removing their effectiveness in these matters.

theres a lot more than a state of mind involved , when were talking about terrorist who strap bombs on children and women and
tell them to go watch a movie while the terrorist detonate the bomb remotely to make a statement.

the statement that they make is that they are stupid heartless idiots who will never accomplish their goals by taking this path.

unless their goals are to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are stupid heartless idiots.

Quote:
Changing the rules to allow continual imprisonment is not the mark of a humane society


you cant ask the people below how they feel about it
but I'm acertain that if you ask their families and friends
they could tell you how they would handle it.

Gordon M. Aamoth, Jr.
Edelmiro Abad
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Laurence Christopher Abel
William F. Abrahamson
Richard Anthony Aceto
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Patrick Adams
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Martin S. Niederer
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Frank John Niestadt, Jr.
Gloria Nieves
Juan Nieves, Jr.
Troy Edward Nilsen
Paul Nimbley
John B. Niven
Katherine Marie Noack
Curtis Terrance Noel
Daniel R. Nolan
Robert Noonan
Daniela R. Notaro
Brian Christopher Novotny
Soichi Numata
Brian Felix Nunez
Jose Nunez
Jeffrey Roger Nussbaum
Dennis O'Berg
James P. O'Brien, Jr.
Michael P. O'Brien
Scott J. O'Brien
Timothy Michael O'Brien
Daniel O'Callaghan
Dennis James O'Connor, Jr.
Diana J. O'Connor
Keith Kevin O'Connor
Richard J. O'Connor
Amy O'Doherty
Marni Pont O'Doherty
James Andrew O'Grady
Thomas O'Hagan
Patrick J. O'Keefe
William O'Keefe
Gerald O'leary
Matthew Timothy O'Mahony
Peter J. O'Neill, Jr.
Sean Gordon O'Neill
Kevin O'Rourke
Patrick J. O'Shea
Robert William O'Shea
Timothy F. O'Sullivan
James A. Oakley
Douglas E. Oelschlager
Takashi Ogawa
Albert Ogletree
Philip Paul Ognibene
Joseph J. Ogren
Samuel Oitice
Gerald Michael Olcott
Christine Anne Olender
Linda Mary Oliva
Edward Kraft Oliver
Leah E. Oliver
Eric T. Olsen
Jeffrey James Olsen
Maureen Lyons Olson
Steven John Olson
Toshihiro Onda
Seamus L. O'Neal
John P. Oneill
Frank Oni
Michael C. Opperman
Christopher Orgielewicz
Margaret Orloske
Virginia Anne Ormiston
Ronald Orsini
Peter Ortale
Juan Ortega-Campos
Alexander Ortiz
David Ortiz
Emilio Ortiz, Jr.
Pablo Ortiz
Paul Ortiz, Jr.
Sonia Ortiz
Masaru Ose
Elsy C. Osorio
James R. Ostrowski
Jason Douglas Oswald
Michael Otten
Isidro D. Ottenwalder
Michael Chung Ou
Todd Joseph Ouida
Jesus Ovalles
Peter J. Owens, Jr.
Adianes Oyola
Angel M. Pabon
Israel Pabon, Jr.
Roland Pacheco
Michael Benjamin Packer
Rene Padilla-Chavarria
Deepa Pakkala
Jeffrey Matthew Palazzo
Thomas Palazzo
Richard Palazzolo
Orio J. Palmer
Frank Anthony Palombo
Alan N. Palumbo
Christopher Matthew Panatier
Dominique Lisa Pandolfo
Paul J. Pansini
John M. Paolillo
Edward Joseph Papa
Salvatore T. Papasso
James Nicholas Pappageorge
Vinod Kumar Parakat
Vijayashanker Paramsothy
Nitin Parandkar
Hardai Parbhu
James Wendell Parham
Debra Marie Paris
George Paris
Gye Hyong Park
Philip Lacey Parker
Michael Alaine Parkes
Robert E. Parks, Jr.
Hashmukhrai C. Parmar
Robert Parro
Diane Marie Parsons
Leobardo Lopez Pascual
Michael Pascuma
Jerrold Paskins
Horace Robert Passananti
Suzanne H. Passaro
Avnish Ramanbhai Patel
Dipti Patel
Manish Patel
Steven Bennett Paterson
James Matthew Patrick
Manuel D. Patrocino
Bernard E. Patterson
Cira Marie Patti
Robert E. Pattison
James Robert Paul
Patrice Paz
Victor Paz-Gutierrez
Stacey Lynn Peak
Richard Allen Pearlman
Durrell V. Pearsall
Thomas Pedicini
Todd Douglas Pelino
Michel Adrian Pelletier
Anthony G. Peluso
Angel Ramon Pena
Richard Al Penny
Salvatore F. Pepe
Carl Peralta
Robert David Peraza
Jon A. Perconti
Alejo Perez
Angel Perez, Jr.
Angela Susan Perez
Anthony Perez
Ivan Perez
Nancy E. Perez
Joseph John Perroncino
Edward J. Perrotta
Emelda H. Perry
Glenn C. Perry
John William Perry
Franklin Allan Pershep
Danny Pesce
Michael John Pescherine
Davin Peterson
William Russell Peterson
Mark Petrocelli
Philip Scott Petti
Glen Kerrin Pettit
Dominick Pezzulo
Kaleen Elizabeth Pezzuti
Kevin Pfeifer
Tu-Anh Pham
Kenneth Phelan
Sneha Ann Philips
Gerard Phillips
Suzette Eugenia Piantieri
Ludwig John Picarro
Matthew M. Picerno
Joseph Oswald Pick
Christopher Pickford
Dennis J. Pierce
Bernard Pietronico
Nicholas P. Pietrunti
Theodoros Pigis
Susan Elizabeth Pinto
Joseph Piskadlo
Christopher Todd Pitman
Joshua Piver
Joseph Plumitallo
John Pocher
William Howard Pohlmann
Laurence Polatsch
Thomas H. Polhemus
Steve Pollicino
Susan M. Pollio
Joshua Iousa Poptean
Giovanna Porras
Anthony Portillo
James Edward Potorti
Daphne Pouletsos
Richard N. Poulos
Stephen Emanual Poulos
Brandon Jerome Powell
Shawn Edward Powell
Antonio Pratt
Gregory M. Preziose
Wanda Ivelisse Prince
Vincent Princiotta
Kevin Prior
Everett Martin Proctor III
Carrie Beth Progen
Sarah Prothero-Redheffer
David Lee Pruim
Richard Prunty
John Foster Puckett
Robert David Pugliese
Edward F. Pullis
Patricia Ann Puma
Hemanth Kumar Puttur
Edward R. Pykon
Christopher Quackenbush
Lars Peter Qualben
Lincoln Quappe
Beth Ann Quigley
Michael Quilty
James Francis Quinn
Ricardo J. Quinn
Carlos Quishpe-Cuaman
Carol Millicent Rabalais
Christopher Peter A. Racaniello
Leonard J. Ragaglia
Eugene Raggio
Laura Marie Ragonese-Snik
Michael Ragusa
Peter Frank Raimondi
Harry A. Raines
Ehtesham Raja
Valsa Raju
Edward Rall
Lukas Rambousek
Maria Ramirez
Harry Ramos
Vishnoo Ramsaroop
Lorenzo E. Ramzey
Alfred Todd Rancke
Adam David Rand
Jonathan C. Randall
Srinivasa Shreyas Ranganath
Anne T. Ransom
Faina Aronovna Rapoport
Robert A. Rasmussen
Amenia Rasool
Roger Mark Rasweiler
David Alan Rathkey
William Ralph Raub
Gerard P. Rauzi
Alexey Razuvaev
Gregory Reda
Michele Reed
Judith Ann Reese
Donald J. Regan
Robert M. Regan
Thomas Michael Regan
Christian Michael Otto Regenhard
Howard Reich
Gregg Reidy
James Brian Reilly
Kevin O. Reilly
Timothy E. Reilly
Joseph Reina, Jr.
Thomas Barnes Reinig
Frank Bennett Reisman
Joshua Scott Reiss
Karen Renda
John Armand Reo
Richard Cyril Rescorla
John Thomas Resta
Luis Clodoaldo Revilla
Eduvigis Reyes, Jr.
Bruce Albert Reynolds
John Frederick Rhodes
Francis Saverio Riccardelli
Rudolph N. Riccio
Ann Marie Riccoboni
David H. Rice
Eileen Mary Rice
Kenneth Frederick Rice III
Vernon Allan Richard
Claude Daniel Richards
Gregory David Richards
Michael Richards
Venesha Orintia Richards
James C. Riches
Alan Jay Richman
John M. Rigo
Theresa Risco
Rose Mary Riso
Moises N. Rivas
Joseph Rivelli
Carmen Alicia Rivera
Isaias Rivera
Juan William Rivera
Linda Ivelisse Rivera
David E. Rivers
Joseph R. Riverso
Paul V. Rizza
John Frank Rizzo
Stephen Louis Roach
Joseph Roberto
Leo Arthur Roberts
Michael Roberts
Michael Edward Roberts
Donald Walter Robertson, Jr.
Catherina Robinson
Jeffery Robinson
Michell Lee Jean Robotham
Donald A. Robson
Antonio A. Rocha
Raymond James Rocha
Laura Rockefeller
John Rodak
Antonio J. Rodrigues
Anthony Rodriguez
Carmen Milagros Rodriguez
Gregory Ernesto Rodriguez
Marsha A. Rodriguez
Mayra Valdes Rodriguez
Richard Rodriguez
David Bartolo Rodriguez-Vargas
Matthew Rogan
Karlie Barbara Rogers
Scott Williams Rohner
Keith Roma
Joseph M. Romagnolo
Efrain Romero, Sr.
Elvin Romero
Juan Romero
Orozco James A. Romito
Sean Paul Rooney
Eric Thomas Ropiteau
Aida Rosario
Angela Rosario
Wendy Alice Rosario Wakeford
Mark Rosen
Brooke David Rosenbaum
Linda Rosenbaum
Sheryl Lynn Rosenbaum
Lloyd Daniel Rosenberg
Mark Louis Rosenberg
Andrew Ira Rosenblum
Joshua M. Rosenblum
Joshua Alan Rosenthal
Richard David Rosenthal
Daniel Rosetti
Norman S. Rossinow
Nicholas P. Rossomando
Michael Craig Rothberg
Donna Marie Rothenberg
Nicholas Rowe
Timothy Alan Roy, Sr.
Paul G. Ruback
Ronald J. Ruben
Joanne Rubino
David M. Ruddle
Bart Joseph Ruggiere
Susan A. Ruggiero
Adam Keith Ruhalter
Gilbert Ruiz
Obdulio Ruiz Diaz
Stephen P. Russell
Steven Harris Russin
Michael Thomas Russo, Sr.
Wayne Alan Russo
Edward Ryan
John Joseph Ryan, Jr.
Jonathan Stephan Ryan
Matthew Lancelot Ryan
Tatiana Ryjova
Christina Sunga Ryook
Thierry Saada
Jason Elazar Sabbag
Thomas E. Sabella
Scott Saber
Joseph Francis Sacerdote
Neeraha Sadaranghgani
Mohammad Ali Sadeque
Francis John Sadocha
Jude Safi
Brock Joel Safronoff
Edward Saiya
John Patrick Salamone
Hernando Salas
Juan G. Salas
Esmerlin Antonio Salcedo
John Salvatore Salerno, Jr.
Richard L. Salinardi, Jr.
Wayne John Saloman
Nolbert Salomon
Catherine Patricia Salter
Frank Salvaterra
Paul Richard Salvio
Samuel Robert Salvo, Jr.
Rena Sam-Dinnoo
Carlos Alberto Samaniego
James Kenneth Samuel, Jr.
Michael San Phillip
Sylvia San Pio
Hugo M. Sanay
Erick Sanchez
Jacquelyn Patrice Sanchez
Eric M. Sand
Stacey Leigh Sanders
Herman S. Sandler
James Sands, Jr.
Ayleen J. Santiago
Kirsten Santiago
Maria Theresa Santillan
Susan Gayle Santo
Christopher Santora
John A. Santore
Mario L. Santoro
Rafael Humberto Santos
Rufino Conrado Flores Santos Iii
Jorge Octavio Santos Anaya
Kalyan Sarkar
Chapelle R. Sarker
Paul F. Sarle
Deepika Kumar Sattaluri
Gregory Thomas Saucedo
Susan M. Sauer
Anthony Savas
Vladimir Savinkin
Jackie Sayegh
John Michael Sbarbaro
Robert L. Scandole, Jr.
Michelle Scarpitta
Dennis Scauso
John Albert Schardt
John G. Scharf
Frederick Claude Scheffold, Jr.
Angela Susan Scheinberg
Scott Mitchell Schertzer
Sean Schielke
Steven Francis Schlag
Jon Schlissel
Karen Helene Schmidt
Ian Schneider
Thomas G. Schoales
Frank G. Schott, Jr.
Gerard Patrick Schrang
Jeffrey H. Schreier
John T. Schroeder
Susan Lee Schuler
Edward William Schunk
Mark E. Schurmeier
Clarin Shellie Schwartz
John Burkhart Schwartz
Mark Schwartz
Adriane Victoria Scibetta
Raphael Scorca
Randolph Scott
Sheila Scott
Christopher Jay Scudder
Arthur Warren Scullin
Michael Herman Seaman
Margaret M. Seeliger
Anthony Segarra
Carlos Segarra
Jason Sekzer
Matthew Carmen Sellitto
Howard Selwyn
Larry John Senko
Arturo Angelo Sereno
Frankie Serrano
Alena Sesinova
Adele Christine Sessa
Sita Nermalla Sewnarine
Karen Lynn Seymour
Davis Sezna
Thomas Joseph Sgroi
Jayesh S. Shah
Khalid M. Shahid
Mohammed Shajahan
Gary Shamay
Earl Richard Shanahan
Neil Shastri
Kathryn Anne Shatzoff
Barbara A. Shaw
Jeffrey James Shaw
Robert John Shay, Jr.
Daniel James Shea
Joseph Patrick Shea
Linda Sheehan
Hagay Shefi
John Anthony Sherry
Atsushi Shiratori
Thomas Joseph Shubert
Mark Shulman
See Wong Shum
Allan Abraham Shwartzstein
Johanna Sigmund
Dianne T. Signer
Gregory Sikorsky
Stephen Gerard Siller
David Silver
Craig A. Silverstein
Nasima Hameed Simjee
Bruce Edward Simmons
Arthur Simon
Kenneth Alan Simon
Michael J. Simon
Paul Joseph Simon
Marianne Teresa Simone
Barry Simowitz
Jeff Lyal Simpson
Khamladai Singh
Kulwant Singh
Roshan Ramesh Singh
Thomas E. Sinton III
Peter A. Siracuse
Muriel Fay Siskopoulos
Joseph Michael Sisolak
John P. Skala
Francis Joseph Skidmore, Jr.
Toyena Skinner
Paul A. Skrzypek
Christopher Paul Slattery
Vincent Robert Slavin
Robert F. Sliwak
Paul K. Sloan
Stanley S. Smagala, Jr.
Wendy L. Small
Catherine Smith
Daniel Laurence Smith
George Eric Smith
James Gregory Smith
Jeffrey R. Smith
Joyce Patricia Smith
Karl T. Smith
Keisha Smith
Kevin Joseph Smith
Leon Smith, Jr.
Moira Ann Smith
Rosemary A. Smith
Bonnie Jeanne Smithwick
Rochelle Monique Snell
Leonard J. Snyder, Jr.
Astrid Elizabeth Sohan
Sushil S. Solanki
Ruben Solares
Naomi Leah Solomon
Daniel W. Song
Michael Charles Sorresse
Fabian Soto
Timothy Patrick Soulas
Gregory Spagnoletti
Donald F. Spampinato, Jr.
Thomas Sparacio
John Anthony Spataro
Robert W. Spear, Jr.
Maynard S. Spence, Jr.
George Edward Spencer III
Robert Andrew Spencer
Mary Rubina Sperando
Tina Spicer
Frank Spinelli
William E. Spitz
Joseph Spor, Jr.
Klaus Johannes Sprockamp
Saranya Srinuan
Fitzroy St. Rose
Michael F. Stabile
Lawrence T. Stack
Timothy M. Stackpole
Richard James Stadelberger
Eric Stahlman
Gregory Stajk
Alexandru Liviu Stan
Corina Stan
Mary Domenica Stanley
Anthony Starita
Jeffrey Stark
Derek James Statkevicus
Craig William Staub
William V. Steckman
Eric Thomas Steen
William R. Steiner
Alexander Steinman
Andrew Stergiopoulos
Andrew Stern
Martha Stevens
Michael James Stewart
Richard H. Stewart, Jr.
Sanford M. Stoller
Lonny Jay Stone
Jimmy Nevill Storey
Timothy Stout
Thomas Strada
James J. Straine, Jr.
Edward W. Straub
George J. Strauch, Jr.
Edward T. Strauss
Steven R. Strauss
Steven F. Strobert
Walwyn W. Stuart, Jr.
Benjamin Suarez
David Scott Suarez
Ramon Suarez
Yoichi Sugiyama
William Christopher Sugra
Daniel Suhr
David Marc Sullins
Christopher P. Sullivan
Patrick Sullivan
Thomas Sullivan
Hilario Soriano Sumaya, Jr.
James Joseph Suozzo
Colleen Supinski
Robert Sutcliffe
Seline Sutter
Claudia Suzette Sutton
John Francis Swaine
Kristine M. Swearson
Brian Edward Sweeney
Kenneth J. Swenson
Thomas Swift
Derek Ogilvie Sword
Kevin Thomas Szocik
Gina Sztejnberg
Norbert P. Szurkowski
Harry Taback
Joann Tabeek
Norma C. Taddei
Michael Taddonio
Keiichiro Takahashi
Keiji Takahashi
Phyllis Gail Talbot
Robert Talhami
Sean Patrick Tallon
Paul Talty
Maurita Tam
Rachel Tamares
Hector Tamayo
Michael Andrew Tamuccio
Kenichiro Tanaka
Rhondelle Cheri Tankard
Michael Anthony Tanner
Dennis Gerard Taormina, Jr.
Kenneth Joseph Tarantino
Allan Tarasiewicz
Ronald Tartaro
Darryl Anthony Taylor
Donnie Brooks Taylor
Lorisa Ceylon Taylor
Michael Morgan Taylor
Paul A. Tegtmeier
Yeshauant Tembe
Anthony Tempesta
Dorothy Pearl Temple
Stanley Temple
David Tengelin
Brian John Terrenzi
Lisa M. Terry
Shell Tester
Goumatie T. Thackurdeen
Sumati Thakur
Harshad Sham Thatte
Thomas F. Theurkauf, Jr.
Lesley Anne Thomas
Brian Thomas Thompson
Clive Thompson
Glenn Thompson
Nigel Bruce Thompson
Perry A. Thompson
Vanavah Alexei Thompson
William H. Thompson
Eric Raymond Thorpe
Nichola Angela Thorpe
Sal Edward Tieri, Jr.
John p Tierney
Mary Ellen Tiesi
William R. Tieste
Kenneth Francis Tietjen
Stephen Edward Tighe
Scott Charles Timmes
Michael E. Tinley
Jennifer M. Tino
Robert Frank Tipaldi
John James Tipping II
David Tirado
Hector Luis Tirado, Jr.
Michelle Lee Titolo
John J. Tobin
Richard Todisco
Vladimir Tomasevic
Stephen Kevin Tompsett
Thomas Tong
Doris Torres
Luis Eduardo Torres
Amy Elizabeth Toyen
Christopher Michael Traina
Daniel Patrick Trant
Abdoul Karim Traore
Glenn J. Travers
Walter Philip Travers
Felicia Y. Traylor-Bass
Lisa L. Trerotola
Karamo Trerra
Michael Angel Trinidad
Francis Joseph Trombino
Gregory James Trost
William P. Tselepis
Zhanetta Valentinovna Tsoy
Michael Tucker
Lance Richard Tumulty
Ching Ping Tung
Simon James Turner
Donald Joseph Tuzio
Robert T. Twomey
Jennifer Tzemis
John G. Ueltzhoeffer
Tyler V. Ugolyn
Michael A. Uliano
Jonathan J. Uman
Anil Shivhari Umarkar
Allen V. Upton
Diane Marie Urban
John Damien Vaccacio
Bradley Hodges Vadas
Renuta Vaidea
William Valcarcel
Felix Antonio Vale
Ivan Vale
Benito Valentin
Santos Valentin, Jr.
Carlton Francis Valvo II
Erica H. Van Acker
Kenneth W. Van Auken
Richard B. Van Hine
Daniel M. Van Laere
Edward Raymond Vanacore
Jon C. Vandevander
Barrett Vanvelzer, 4
Edward Vanvelzer
Paul Herman Vanvelzer
Frederick Thomas Varacchi
Gopalakrishnan Varadhan
David Vargas
Scott C. Vasel
Azael Ismael Vasquez
Arcangel Vazquez
Santos Vazquez
Peter Anthony Vega
Sankara S. Velamuri
Jorge Velazquez
Lawrence G. Veling
Anthony Mark Ventura
David Vera
Loretta Ann Vero
Christopher James Vialonga
Matthew Gilbert Vianna
Robert Anthony Vicario
Celeste Torres Victoria
Joanna Vidal
John T. Vigiano II
Joseph Vincent Vigiano
Frank J. Vignola, Jr.
Joseph Barry Vilardo
Sergio Villanueva
Chantal Vincelli
Melissa Vincent
Francine Ann Virgilio
Lawrence Virgilio
Joseph Gerard Visciano
Joshua S. Vitale
Maria Percoco Vola
Lynette D. Vosges
Garo H. Voskerijian
Alfred Vukosa
Gregory Kamal Bruno Wachtler
Gabriela Waisman
Courtney Wainsworth Walcott
Victor Wald
Benjamin James Walker
Glen Wall
Mitchel Scott Wallace
Peter Guyder Wallace
Robert Francis Wallace
Roy Michael Wallace
Jeanmarie Wallendorf
Matthew Blake Wallens
John Wallice, Jr.
Barbara P. Walsh
James Henry Walsh
Jeffrey P. Walz
Ching Wang
Weibin Wang
Michael Warchola
Stephen Gordon Ward
James Arthur Waring
Brian G. Warner
Derrick Washington
Charles Waters
James Thomas Waters, Jr.
Patrick J. Waters
Kenneth Thomas Watson
Michael Henry Waye
Todd Christopher Weaver
Walter Edward Weaver
Nathaniel Webb
Dinah Webster
Joanne Flora Weil
Michael T. Weinberg
Steven Weinberg
Scott Jeffrey Weingard
Steven George Weinstein
Simon Weiser
David M. Weiss
David Thomas Weiss
Vincent Michael Wells
Timothy Matthew Welty
Christian Hans Rudolf Wemmers
Ssu-Hui Wen
Oleh D. Wengerchuk
Peter M. West
Whitfield West, Jr.
Meredith Lynn Whalen
Eugene Whelan
Adam S. White
Edward James White III
James Patrick White
John Sylvester White
Kenneth Wilburn White, Jr.
Leonard Anthony White
Malissa Y. White
Wayne White
Leanne Marie Whiteside
Mark P. Whitford
Michael T. Wholey
Mary Catherine Wieman
Jeffrey David Wiener
Wilham J. Wik
Alison Marie Wildman
Glenn E. Wilkenson
John C. Willett
Brian Patrick Williams
Crossley Richard Williams, Jr.
David J. Williams
Deborah Lynn Williams
Kevin Michael Williams
Louie Anthony Williams
Louis Calvin Williams III
John P. Williamson
Donna Ann Wilson
William Wilson
David Harold Winton
Glenn J. Winuk
Thomas Francis Wise
Alan L. Wisniewski
Frank Thomas Wisniewski
David Wiswall
Sigrid Wiswe
Michael Wittenstein
Christopher W. Wodenshek
Martin P. Wohlforth
Katherine Susan Wolf
Jennifer Yen Wong
Siu Cheung Wong
Yin Ping Wong
Yuk Ping Wong
Brent James Woodall
James John Woods
Patrick J. Woods
Richard Herron Woodwell
David Terence Wooley
John Bentley Works
Martin Michael Wortley
Rodney James Wotton
William Wren
John Wayne Wright
Neil Robin Wright
Sandra Lee Wright
Jupiter Yambem
Suresh Yanamadala
Matthew David Yarnell
Myrna Yaskulka
Shakila Yasmin
Olabisi Shadie Layeni Yee
William Yemele
Edward P. York
Kevin Patrick York
Raymond R. York
Suzanne Youmans
Barrington Young
Jacqueline Young
Elkin Yuen
Joseph C. Zaccoli
Adel Agayby Zakhary
Arkady Zaltsman
Edwin J. Zambrana, Jr.
Robert Alan Zampieri
Mark Zangrilli
Ira Zaslow
Kenneth Albert Zelman
Abraham J. Zelmanowitz
Martin Morales Zempoaltecatl
Zhe Zeng
Marc Scott Zeplin
Jie Yao Justin Zhao
Ivelin Ziminski
Michael Joseph Zinzi
Charles A. Zion
Julie Lynne Zipper
Salvatore Zisa
Prokopios Paul Zois
Joseph J. Zuccala
Andrew S. Zucker
Igor Zukelman
List of Victims on American Airlines Flight 11
Anna Allison
David Lawrence Angell
Lynn Edwards Angell
Seima Aoyama
Barbara Jean Arestegui
Myra Joy Aronson
Christine Barbuto
Carolyn Beug
Kelly Ann Booms
Carol Marie Bouchard
Robin Lynne Kaplan
Neilie Anne Heffernan Casey
Jeffrey Dwayne Collman
Jeffrey W. Coombs
Tara Kathleen Creamer
Thelma Cuccinello
Patrick Currivan
Brian Paul Dale
David Dimeglio
Donald Americo Ditullio
Alberto Dominguez


3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
paul #46045 11/11/12 02:37 PM
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Posts: 4,136
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Posts: 4,136
they didn't all fit into my last reply.

Alberto Dominguez
Paige Marie Farley-Hackel
Alexander Milan Filipov
Carol Ann Flyzik
Paul J. Friedman
Karleton D.B. Fyfe
Peter Alan Gay
Linda M. George
Edmund Glazer
Lisa Reinhart Gordenstein
Andrew Peter Charles Curry Green
Peter Paul Hashem
Robert Jay Hayes
Edward R. Hennessy, Jr.
John A. Hofer
Cora Hidalgo Holland
John Nicholas Humber, Jr.
Waleed Joseph Iskandar
John Charles Jenkins
Charles Edward Jones
Barbara A. Keating
David P. Kovalcin
Judith Camilla Larocque
Natalie Janis Lasden
Daniel John Lee
Daniel M. Lewin
Sara Elizabeth Low
Susan A. Mackay
Karen Ann Martin
Thomas F. McGuinness, Jr.
Christopher D. Mello
Jeffrey Peter Mladenik
Carlos Alberto Montoya
Antonio Jesus Montoya Valdes
Laura Lee Morabito
Mildred Naiman
Laurie Ann Neira
Renee Lucille Newell
Kathleen Ann Nicosia
Jacqueline June Norton
Robert Grant Norton
John Ogonowski
Betty Ann Ong
Jane M. Orth
Thomas Nicholas Pecorelli
Berinthia B. Perkins
Sonia M. Puopolo
David E. Retik
Jean Destrehan Roger
Philip Martin Rosenzweig
Richard Barry Ross
Jessica Leigh Sachs
Rahma Salie
Heather Lee Smith
Dianne Bullis Snyder
Douglas Joel Stone
Xavier Suarez
Madeline Amy Sweeney
Michael Theodoridis
James Anthony Trentini
Mary Barbara Trentini
Pendyala Vamsikrishna
Mary Alice Wahlstrom
Kenneth Waldie
John Joseph Wenckus
Candace Lee Williams
Christopher Rudolph Zarba, Jr.

List of Victims on United Airlines Flight 175
Alona Abraham
Garnet Edward Bailey
Mark Lawrence Bavis
Graham Andrew Berkeley
Touri Bolourchi
Klaus Bothe
Daniel Raymond Brandhorst
David Reed Gamboa Brandhorst
John Brett Cahill
Christoffer Mikael Carstanjen
John J. Corcoran III
Dorothy Alma de Araujo
Ana Gloria Pocasangre Debarrera
Robert John Fangman
Lisa Anne Frost
Ronald Gamboa
Lynn Catherine Goodchild
Peter M. Goodrich
Douglas Alan Gowell
Francis Edward Grogan
Carl Max Hammond, Jr.
Christine Lee Hanson
Peter Burton Hanson
Susan Kim Hanson
Gerald Francis Hardacre
Eric Hartono
James Edward Hayden
Herbert Wilson Homer
Michael Robert Horrocks
Robert Adrien Jalbert
Amy N. Jarret
Ralph Kershaw
Heinrich Kimmig
Amy R. King
Brian Kinney
Kathryn L. LaBorie
Robert G. Leblanc
Maclovio Lopez, Jr.
Marianne Macfarlane
Alfred Gilles Marchand
Louis Mariani
Juliana McCourt
Ruth Magdaline McCourt
Wolfgang Peter Menzel
Shawn M. Nassaney
Marie Pappalardo
Patrick J. Quigley IV
Frederick Charles Rimmele III
James Roux
Jesus Sanchez
Victor J. Saracini
Mary Kathleen Shearer
Robert M. Shearer
Jane Louise Simpkin
Brian David Sweeney
Michael C. Tarrou
Alicia N. Titus
Timothy Ray Ward
William Michael Weems
List of Victims at the Pentagon (Not Including Flight 77)
Note: USA - United Stated Army; USN - United States Navy
SPC Craig S. Amundson, USA
YN3 Melissa Rose Barnes, USN
MSG Max J. Beilke, Retired
IT2 Kris Romeo Bishundat, USN
Carrie R. Blagburn
COL Canfield D. Boone, ARNG
Donna M. Bowen
Allen P. Boyle
ET3 Christopher L. Burford, USN
ET3 Daniel M. Caballero, USN
SFC Jose O. Calderon-Olmedo, USA
Angelene C. Carter
Sharon A. Carver
SFC John J. Chada, USA, Retired
Rosa Maria Chapa
Julian T. Cooper
LCDR Eric A. Cranford, USN
Ada M. Davis
CAPT Gerald F. DeConto, USN
LTC Jerry D. Dickerson, USA
IT1 Johnnie Doctor, Jr., USN
CAPT Robert E. Dolan, Jr., USN
CDR William H. Donovan, USN
CDR Patrick Dunn, USN
AG1 Edward T. Earhart, USN
LCDR Robert R. Elseth, USNR
SK3 Jamie L. Fallon, USN
Amelia V. Fields
Gerald P. Fisher
AG2 Matthew M. Flocco, USN
Sandra N. Foster
CAPT Lawrence D. Getzfred, USN
Cortez Ghee
Brenda C. Gibson
COL Ronald F. Golinski, USA, Retired
Diane Hale-McKinzy
Carolyn B. Halmon
Sheila M.S. Hein
ET1 Ronald J. Hemenway, USN
MAJ Wallace Cole Hogan, Jr., USA
SSG Jimmie I. Holley, USA, Retired
Angela M. Houtz
Brady Kay Howell
Peggie M. Hurt
LTC Stephen N. Hyland, Jr., USA
Lt Col Robert J. Hymel, USAF, Retired
SGM Lacey B. Ivory, USA
LTC Dennis M. Johnson, USA
Judith L. Jones
Brenda Kegler
LT Michael S. Lamana, USN
David W. Laychak
Samantha L. Lightbourn-Allen
MAJ Stephen V. Long, USA
James T. Lynch, Jr.
Terence M. Lynch
OS2 Nehamon Lyons IV, USN
Shelley A. Marshall
Teresa M. Martin
Ada L. Mason-Acker
LTC Dean E. Mattson, USA
LTG Timothy J. Maude, USA
Robert J. Maxwell
Molly L. McKenzie
Patricia E. Mickley
MAJ Ronald D. Milam, USA
Gerard P. Moran, Jr.
Odessa V. Morris
ET1 Brian A. Moss, USN
Teddington H. Moy
LCDR Patrick J. Murphy, USNR
Khang Ngoc Nguyen
DM2 Michael A. Noeth, USN
Ruben S. Ornedo
Diana B. Padro
LT Jonas M. Panik, USNR
MAJ Clifford L. Patterson, Jr., USA
LT Darin H. Pontell, USNR
Scott Powell
CAPT Jack D. Punches, USN, Retired
AW1 Joseph J. Pycior, Jr., USN
Deborah A. Ramsaur
Rhonda Sue Rasmussen
IT1 Marsha D. Ratchford, USN
Martha M. Reszke
Cecelia E. (Lawson) Richard
Edward V. Rowenhorst
Judy Rowlett
SGM Robert E. Russell, USA, Retired
CW4 William R. Ruth, ARNG
Charles E. Sabin, Sr.
Marjorie C. Salamone
COL David M. Scales, USA
CDR Robert A. Schlegel, USN
Janice M. Scott
LTC Michael L. Selves, USA, Retired
Marian H. Serva
CDR Dan F. Shanower, USN
Antionette M. Sherman
Diane M. Simmons
Cheryle D. Sincock
ITC Gregg H. Smallwood, USN
LTC Gary F. Smith, USA, Retired
Patricia J. Statz
Edna L. Stephens
SGM Larry L. Strickland, USA
LTC Kip P. Taylor, USA
Sandra C. Taylor
LTC Karl W. Teepe, USA, Retired
SGT Tamara C. Thurman, USA
LCDR Otis V. Tolbert, USN
SSG Willie Q. Troy, USA, Retired
LCDR Ronald J. Vauk, USNR
LTC Karen J. Wagner, USA
Meta L. (Fuller) Waller
SPC Chin Sun Pak Wells, USA
SSG Maudlyn A. White, USA
Sandra L. White
Ernest M. Willcher
LCDR David L. Williams, USN
MAJ Dwayne Williams, USA
RMC Marvin Roger Woods, USN, Retired
IT2 Kevin W. Yokum, USN
ITC Donald M. Young, USN
Edmond G. Young, Jr.
Lisa L. Young
List of Victims on American Airlines Flight 77
Paul W. Ambrose
Yeneneh Betru
Mary Jane Booth
Bernard C. Brown, II
CAPT Charles F. Burlingame III, USNR, Retired
Suzanne M. Calley
William E. Caswell
David M. Charlebois
Sarah M. Clark
Asia S. Cottom
James D. Debeuneure
Rodney Dickens
Eddie A. Dillard
LCDR Charles A. Droz III, USN, Retired
Barbara G. Edwards
Charles S. Falkenberg
Dana Falkenberg
Zoe Falkenberg
J. Joseph Ferguson
Darlene E. Flagg
RADM Wilson F. Flagg, USNR, Retired
1stLt Richard P. Gabriel, USMC, Retired
Ian J. Gray
Stanley R. Hall
Michele M. Heidenberger
Bryan C. Jack
Steven D. Jacoby
Ann C. Judge
Chandler R. Keller
Yvonne E. Kennedy
Norma Cruz Khan
Karen Ann Kincaid
Dong Chul Lee
Jennifer Lewis
Kenneth E. Lewis
Renee A. May
Dora Marie Menchaca
Christopher C. Newton
Barbara K. Olson
Ruben S. Ornedo
Robert Penninger
Robert R. Ploger III
Zandra F. Ploger
Lisa J. Raines
Todd H. Reuben
John P. Sammartino
George W. Simmons
Donald D. Simmons
Mari-Rae Sopper
Robert Speisman
Norma Lang Steuerle
Hilda E. Taylor
Leonard E. Taylor
Sandra D. Teague
Leslie A. Whittington
CAPT John D. Yamnicky, Sr., USN, Retired
Vicki Yancey
Shuyin Yang
Yuguag Zheng
List of Victims on United Airlines Flight 93
Christian Adams
Lorraine G. Bay
Todd Beamer
Alan Beaven
Mark K. Bingham
Deora Frances Bodley
Sandra W. Bradshaw
Marion Britton
Thomas E. Burnett Jr.
William Cashman
Georgine Rose Corrigan
Patricia Cushing
Jason Dahl
Joseph Deluca
Patrick Driscoll
Edward Porter Felt
Jane C. Folger
Colleen Fraser
Andrew Garcia
Jeremy Glick
Lauren Grandcolas
Wanda A. Green
Donald F. Greene
Linda Gronlund
Richard Guadagno
Leroy Homer, Jr.
Toshiya Kuge
CeeCee Lyles
Hilda Marcin
Waleska Martinez
Nicole Miller
Louis J. Nacke, II
Donald Arthur Peterson
Jean Hoadley Peterson
Mark Rothenberg
Christine Snyder
John Talignani
Honor Elizabeth Wainio
Deborah Ann Jacobs Welsh
Kristin Gould White


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,62151,00.html#ixzz2BvOwHwjq


3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
paul #46049 11/11/12 09:45 PM
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Paul, I was not talking about releasing suspected terrorists, I was talking about the credibility of your assertions.

If UK, for example, is saying “these are our responsibility, we will deal appropriately with them here”; and US is saying “No, we are going to keep them”; how easy is it to believe it when you assert that you don’t want them.

We don’t want them, but we’re not letting you have them, so we’ll ship them off to another country and let them rot, guilty or not.


There never was nothing.
paul #46055 11/12/12 12:16 AM
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Bill is right. These people have not been tried. Some are possibly not guilty. Punishing them in the manner in which they are being punished is revenge and not justice.

Yesterday was Remembrance Day. It is a day to remember all the soldiers who died, and this year it was the anniversary of the end of WW1. The death toll in that war was terrible. It marked the population of Europe for years to come. Many of the troops died in battle, some in senseless and meaningless conflict.

Six names were added to the War Memorial in Canberra yesterday. They were the names of the latest Australian soldiers to have died in war- this time Afghanistan. Now the memorial stretches from 1914 to yesterday-- that's nearly 100 years of young soldiers dying. No amount if ill-treating the enemy will bring them back.

The prisoners need a trial, and if they are found guilty they need to pay the penalty. At the very least they should be returned to their countries of origin, where they can be brought to trial and dealt with appropriately.

Ellis #46059 11/12/12 12:27 PM
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First off they are not being held in a foreign country.
the Guantanimo Cuba Naval Base is U.S. ground.

I agree they should be tried , but there are many things to consider.

1) suppose we tried one and found him not guilty.
we then returned him to where we captured him.

he blends in with the population and will always be considered as
someone who through information could have caused the deaths of terrorist , how long will he live?

2) if he was found not guilty but really was a terrorist and is returned to where we captured him.
he will always be considered as someone who through information could have caused the deaths of his fellow terrorist , how long will he live?
what must he do in order to achieve the trust of his fellow terrorist?
strap on a bomb and murder hundreds of innocent bystanders?

3) the release of a terrorist will tell terrorist that if they
are captured they will be returned at a later date.

perhaps the in humane United States should just strap a bomb on
one of them and allow one of them to remotely detonate the bomb while they are having dinner.

we have a bomb , we have innocent people , lets blow us up.

its what they do , they do it well , and they wouldnt care if
any of them are innocent or not , they would make a profound statement at that point.

and that statement would be that we are stupid heartless idiots.


3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
paul #46060 11/12/12 03:10 PM
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Good logical thinking Paul, but taken to its logical conclusion is the stuff of genocides.


There never was nothing.
Bill S. #46062 11/12/12 09:36 PM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp
Quote:
Since January 2002, 779 men have been brought to Guantanamo. Eight men died in the prison camp and 600 have been released. Most of them have been released without charge or transferred to facilities in their home countries. The Department of Defense often referred to these prisoners as the "worst of the worst", but a 2003 memo by then Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld says, "We need to stop populating Guantanamo Bay (GTMO) with low-level enemy combatants ... GTMO needs to serve as an [redacted] not a prison for Afghanistan." As of June 2012, 169 prisoners remained at Guantanamo. According to former US president Jimmy Carter, about half have been cleared for release, yet have little prospect of ever obtaining their freedom.


169 people out of 779 does not sound like genocide to me.

half of the 169 detainees have been cleared for future release.

how did you arrive at your logical conclusion?






3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
paul #46063 11/12/12 10:14 PM
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One of the first things we were told in expert witness training was: Whatever question the opposing barrister asks you, use it as a means to say what you want to say. Either you are working on this principle, Paul, or you are deliberately misconstruing what I am saying. Either way, its getting a bit pointless, and distinctly non-scientific. Another case of quot homines, tot sententiae.


There never was nothing.
Bill S. #46067 11/13/12 03:41 AM
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Quote:
deliberately misconstruing what I am saying.

?
Quote:
Good logical thinking Paul, but taken to its logical conclusion is the stuff of genocides.


Quote:
pointless, and distinctly non-scientific. Another case of quot homines, tot sententiae.


there are many opinions by many men about the detention center but today was the only time I have heard anything about genocide.

were you trying to claim something so that I would question you about it so that you could claim that I was in error by questioning you about it?

or is that just the way your mind works?


Quote:
but taken to its logical conclusion is the stuff of genocides.


perhaps you could elaborate a little bit more about what you were wanting to say.









3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
paul #46068 11/13/12 04:38 AM
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I am not suggesting that the following reflects US policy, just that there is a similarity between your reasoning and, for example, the thinking which has resulted in genocide in other parts of the world.
Try a line of thought that goes something like your points 1 – 3.

These people might want to blow us up.
We should try them to find out.
If we try them and find them not guilty, they might be picked on when we send them home.
Better not try them, just in case, just keep them locked up.
Since we don’t know if they are guilty or not (because we haven’t tried them) we might as well torture them a bit to see what we can find out.
These people are all a potential threat, chances are if we let them go they will blow someone up.
Wouldn’t the world be a safer place without any of them?
Actually it would save a lot of trouble if we just bombed them.


There never was nothing.
Bill S. #46069 11/13/12 04:46 AM
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Quote:
An understandable sentiment, Paul, but one that would have a more authentic ring to it if the US had not been so reluctant, over the years, to agree to British citizens returning here.


I was not talking about just letting terror suspects go free. I was talking about British citizens being returned to this country for trial. Do you think the British are incapable of conducting a fair trial?


There never was nothing.
paul #46070 11/13/12 05:17 AM
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Re re-drawing national boundaries to suit political target. We do that here. We have chopped up Australia into bits that aren't Australia and decided other bits are, so the we can deport refugees there and can say they are not n Australia. The prison is on one of those sort of areas in Cuba. Very legal indeed. And totally morally suss.

Our two guys were returned to us a while ago, One without a trial and scarred from torture in another country from the US, but under its control. The other was tried in America and sentenced, then returned here to finish his sentence. He did so and recently was described as not amongst the 'worst of the worst' after all. Which I am sure he is p[leased about. It's just a shame no one realised that before he served his sentence.

Maybe the idea is that if the whole thing is strung out long enough and the treatment is harsh enough, there will be no one left there after all. Or, as Bill remarks---bomb them. After all that is what happened in their homelands.

Ellis #46083 11/14/12 03:35 AM
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We'll let's hear how you guys would want the detainees to be
handled then.

give us an idea of what we should do in your opinion.


3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
paul #46093 11/14/12 02:41 PM
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My opinion: Anybody in US custody should be granted the constitutional rights of any American. After all we think that the rights granted us under the constitution are fundamental and all men should have them. That means if we really believe in the constitution we should apply it in all cases. Prisoners of war and convicted criminals are a slightly different situation, but they still have rights.

Bill Gill


C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.
paul #46095 11/14/12 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Do you think the British are incapable of conducting a fair trial?


Originally Posted By: Paul
We'll let's hear how you guys would want the detainees to be handled then.


Aggression = evasion, not an answer.


There never was nothing.
Bill S. #46113 11/15/12 02:19 AM
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do we have detainees at guantanamo who are brittish ?

its really hard to try and figure out what your trying to say
Bill s , maybe you should try and understand that I am not familiar with any brittish detainees , perhaps we have several in city jails awaiting trial in some city.

and I dont have a clue about the brittish courts system.

so I couldnt answer your question.

but where did this come from?

Quote:
Aggression = evasion, not an answer.


we were discussing the detainees at guantamino naval base
and you seem to want them to either get a trial or released
or something , which is why I asked those of you who seem
concerned about this matter to post a suggestion or two about what you think we should do with them.

just continually repeating that we should do something
is senseless , it may be time to say put up or shut up!






3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
Bill #46115 11/15/12 03:11 AM
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Quote:
Anybody in US custody should be granted the constitutional rights of any American.


there's a problem with that also.
http://www.aclu.org/national-security/president-obama-signs-indefinite-detention-bill-law

Quote:
The ACLU believes that any military detention of American citizens or others within the United States is unconstitutional and illegal, including under the NDAA.


by granting a wartime prisoner the same right's that we have because we are American citizens or our Constitutional right's
would mean that a wartime prisoner could not be deported.

because American Citizens cannot be deported.

I dont think that wartime prisoners should be granted our rights as citizens , which are written down in the constitution and the many additions or amendments to the constitution.


3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
paul #46118 11/15/12 02:14 PM
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Let’s get things in perspective. My understanding is that SAGG is a discussion forum. How dull discussion would be if everyone agreed with everyone else all the time. You will recall that I tempered what seemed to be a unanimous appreciation of Obama with a mention of something he had promised but not delivered. That is hardly enough to tarnish the halo of a popular politician, it’s something that most, if not all, do.

You seem immediately to have responded as though I had criticised America’s use of Guantanamo Bay. Whatever thoughts I might have had on that subject, I kept them to myself. Any implied criticism was yours.

Only in response to your comments, such as: “our People dont want them in the U.S., would you like to have them in Essex?” did I raise the question of the difficulty our Government had negotiating the return of British nationals. Again, this was not a criticism of policy, it was simply an attempt to discover how well your assertions matched reality. Clearly, however appropriate a long list of names may have been to what was in your mind, it did nothing to address my quest for clarity.

If you are going to take issue over criticism, it might be a good thing to make sure the criticism is real rather than a product of your interpretation.

Quote:
its really hard to try and figure out what your trying to say
Bill s , maybe you should try and understand that I am not familiar with any brittish detainees


If you are not familiar with the situation, how wise is it to hold forth about it?


There never was nothing.
paul #46120 11/15/12 03:42 PM
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You complain that prisoners of war aren't citizens and shouldn't have the rights of citizens. I didn't say they should. I clearly said that POWs and criminals were a special case, but that they should still have the basic rights we are guaranteed in the constitution.

Bill Gill


C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.
Bill #46122 11/15/12 04:18 PM
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Prisoners do have basic rights already , and
heres a link where you can read about them.



http://www.aclu.org/prisoners-rights

and heres a handbook that might also help.

http://www.pailp.org/Images/PRISONERS%20RIGHTS%20HANDBOOK%202009.pdf

hope this helps.


3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
Bill S. #46123 11/15/12 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Only in response to your comments, such as: “our People dont want them in the U.S., would you like to have them in Essex?” did I raise the question of the difficulty our Government had negotiating the return of British nationals.


maybe its because we can't figure out what you are trying to ask us to do...

have you ever considered that being direct and to the point
helps in negotiations vs dropping little hints and quoting latin?

maybe we will just keep them a few more years until you guys
figure out how to actually tell us what you want to tell us...

it sounds fair to me.

but its not fair to them , now is it.

Brittish barganing skills that consist of dilly dallying around
in the same manner as you dilly dally around isnt heping.


You guys once owned and operated America , however due to your
governing skills you lost America to people who didnt understand
why you did things the way you did.

face it , your tiny little country wouldn't even exist anymore were it not for the in humane U.S. govenment stepping in to save
you from ruin (( not once but 3 times now )) , we seem to be capable of governing ourselves and our territories ...

the Brittish empire was at one time the greatest on earth
what happened ?



heres a nice little animated map of the brittish empire as
it grows in strength and shrinks in strength.



as far as capabilities go , there's a definite capability
that the brittish have.













3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
paul #46133 11/15/12 10:16 PM
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Thanks Paul, I take it as a compliment to contemporary Brits that those who would criticise us always seem to have to resort to history. Compliment accepted.

BTW, there is only one "T" in Britain, in spite of the numerous brands we drink. smile


There never was nothing.
paul #46138 11/16/12 05:39 AM
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Paul- It may interest you to know that many of Britain's Empire members still have the Queen as Head of State, and the independence they enjoy was achieved in close co-operation with Britain.

I do not expect others to understand the details of this situation but it is known as The Commonwealth of Nations and is still alive and more or less viable, and an amazing achievement of peaceful independence and growth.

Commonwealth countries are democratic and allow the possibility of equality among their citizens.

No, it's not perfect, but it is a very good effort!

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I suppose this thread could go on forever and all those who
seem to think that the U.S. is doing wrong by the terrorist suspects that are in detention camps are only going to complain.

I asked if anyone had any ideas , but that might ease the complaints off a bit , so complaining seem's to be what
people here at sagg really want to do.

thats the way I see it.


3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
paul #46147 11/17/12 05:30 AM
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Paul- We have suggested solutions, perhaps you have not processed them.

They are---Try the prisoners in a court of law-- in America or perhaps somewhere neutral if preferred, and deal with them according to the findings.

The guilty ones could go to serve a gaol term* in America, and the others could be returned to their countries of origin-- or offered residence in either the US or a country that was willing to have them. They would have been found 'not guilty' and thus are owed something for their wrong imprisonment.

Or, if they are citizens of another, allied, country they should be dealt with by their country of citizenship.



* I deliberately do not suggest a death penalty. There is none in my country and I do not think that killing people in such a situation makes for anything but martyrs.

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