THIS THREAD IS OUR OPPORTUNITY TO EXPLORE AND ASK ABOUT the following factors which, in my opinion, outline who we are.
What factors are you speaking of, that are universal or pervasive within the reality of humanity and not derived from opinion or time related beliefs of past or current scientific or religious understanding?
Would a person of evolving conscious awareness hold themselves to factors derived from lesser states of consciousness?
Do the following descriptions or conditions (within your questions) refer to your opinion of who we (however you define we) are?
1)Anxiety and depression. Who among us, at one time or another, has not felt very anxious and/or depressed?
Contrast to peace is what gives one the experience in differences. Anxiety is not necessarily the precursor to enlightenment or liberation. One can have a happy carefree life and then rise above
that experience into the bliss of the
Now.
Idealists imagine perfection according their understanding. Regardless of experience in the relative, if ones life has been directed to relative boundaries or even the imagination of infinity, it still won't equal the mind when it steps out of the relative and tastes the infinite which is beyond the limits of the ego and its habitual landmarks of identification with the present life as it is perceived..
2)Right now, is there any among us who lives in a state of being that is one of almost continuous anxiety; one of absolute dread, and is utterly devoid of meaning and peace of mind? Anyone?
When asking this question do you propose that whatever the experience one is having that is devoid of peace, is not meaningful or without utility and purpose? Is it possible to live a life where there are absolutely no moments of peace or is it just a sweeping statement that one makes where one ignores all the times when one does not identify with suffering according to the personal definitions of suffering?
3)Anyone who has been through the same kind of crisis as described by Tolle, below, and who now has some idea what it means to be conscious of the NOW?
Yes there are many. And they don't recognize reality as being critical, only that there are critical judgments. Ergo there are no real crisis' in life, just distortions of perception due to the stress within the nervous system.
In addition, I ask:
3)Has anyone among us ever gone through the kind of mysterious and intense experience as that described by Echart (p.5):
I knew, of course, that something profoundly significant had happened to me, but I did not understand it at all...until several years later...the intense pressure of suffering...What was left then was my true nature as the ever-present I am...consciousness in its pure state...Later I also learned to go into that timeless and deathless realm...states of indescribable bliss...a time came when I was left with nothing...no relationships, no job, no home, no socially defined identity. I spent almost two years sitting on a park bench in a state of the most intense joy. But even the most beautiful experiences come and go...But the undercurrent of peace has never left me...Before I knew it, I had an external identity again. I had become a spiritual teacher...
4) Is there anyone reading this above who relates to the Tolle's story, and who has become fully conscious of the NOW?
What are you relating to?
Your first two questions have to do with suffering, and you include the story of suffering as a precursor to the experience of the absolute Self because that's the way Tolle sells his story.
It appeals to the judgments in suffering and the mind that is dissatisfied with the present moment.
Would you determine whether one experienced the now based on their descriptions of the experience?
Are you basing
your idea of finding relief from anxiety as becoming more spiritual?
Do you believe those who experience the
now do not experience pain or anxiety?
Scripture tells us that enlightenment is not the removal of ones perceptions from the relative world with all of the human feeling that is built into the human mechanism.
On another note. Because Tolle describes his experience as intense, does that mean the now is intense? Consciousness is not bound by the attachments that the ego prescribes to any thought feeling or action. It can create and have an experience. Like thoughts, thoughts translate into feelings and experiences as action thru the senses, like stepping into a hot tub of water and feeling an intense sensation but then having the feeling subside into a different experience.
The Now cannot be captured by any one experience. Bliss is more akin to the removal of the senses attachment to the relative and having the awareness of something much bigger than ones sense orientation to measures of intensity.
If you were continually bombarded with the sensory world in the roller coaster of feelings that are sometimes good or bad, to find a still island, removed from the roller coaster could be called bliss. Observance of the relative from this place would be called clear perception.
5) How can we become fully, and truly, conscious and spiritual beings--ones beyond being puppets manipulated by the mind and the body--the source of our pain and suffering?
One does not become a spiritual being. One is a spiritual being.
Being aware of it requires the understanding and experience that you are not a puppet to anything outside of your own choices/thoughts and veiled beliefs that cloud any ability to see and experience life clearly. Suffering comes from the attachment to the identifications of the personal relative world and the judgments that separate you from what you want to call God, and all that is. When you measure the world around you and place more of what you like into the idea of God you create evil. This is not something consciousness or the now does with itself, its what human belief does in its perceptions of consciousness.
How it helps you is relative to how far you want to take your awareness. Rearranging your thoughts temporarily will give you temporary satisfaction, but the mind situated in the relative, entertaining its ideas of being in the relative world will still weigh the experiences of like and dislike, good and evil in its mind all the time wanting to think that none of it is real. This does not do anything other than create more stress in the nervous system as one tries to push all that one does not want away and isolate ones self in the neighborhood of good thoughts and experiences. One cannot change the experience of the world around ones self without changing the experience of ones self.
For example:
“If you get the inside right, the outside will fall into place. Primary reality is within; secondary reality without.”
Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now: A Guide to Spiritual Enlightenment
How does one translate the experience of this as it is being described, thru the mind that does not have the experience?
If someone told you when you were a child what it was like to be an adult, would you know what it was like to be an adult and be prepared to handle your adult world without actually going thru the adult experiences?
The Selling of enlightenment often promises an end to suffering. It is the Suffering that most relate to as the evil in ones life. One imagines a new experience where all anxiety is removed and one lives in constant bliss.
Tolle describes the mind when it visits this state of bliss and then returns to tell the story. He can't tell you how he got there, only that he just had the experience. What he sells is the idea of an altered state of being. What those who sell Tolle do is to sell their interpretation of Tolle. Like the Christians sell their interpretation of their thoughts of Jesus the Christ.
For those that have a brief experience with an altered state of consciousness, an idea that some cast is that it is an enlightened experience, and that means one is enlightened. Similar to the God experience that some project.
Being able to shift the awareness from the relative to the absolute
Now requires a familiarity with consciousness or the
NOW, not the projection of ideals.
Some fall into it like Tolle, or describe similar experiences to Tolle like Andrew Cohen, some are born into it like Krishnamurti or Mother Mira Alfassa, but somewhere (in some life) they did the work.
If you read Cohen, he won't paint the pretty picture of gaining enlightenment thru just thinking about like Tolle does even tho his awakening was similar in having the experience of reaching the bottom. IF that was the theme then everyone would prescribe that suffering was the way to enlightenment. Religion tried that and it didn't gain much popularity.
What Type of Meditation Does Eckhart Tolle Recommend?
Tolle is not known to promote any form of meditation. He believes that the most essential part of understanding his message is to simply stay “present” or in his own words “Stay in the now”. Instead of following practices or techniques, which are “mind” based, he suggests that we stay in place of relaxed allowing, where the “now” is allowed to be instead of fighting against it to reach a better state.
-outofstress.com-
Since Tolle does not have a method and simply points toward his own experience of having reached the bottom of the pit in his experience with no where to go but up. Any interpretation of how to get there based on his thoughts are going to be subjective to ones own beliefs and projected ideals rather than their own experiences as long as they are selling Tolle.
If you haven't had or shared his particular experience, then trying to imagine what it is like to be enlightened does little to raise the experience from the familiarity that is one of being self oriented in the relative.
There are plenty who imagine the relative life to be as good as it gets, and are happy to accept the world as it is, with all of its suffering. To them Enlightenment is no different than imagining an afterlife prescribed by religion.
What is enlightenment? Can you imagine the goal if you have not achieved it, or just throw darts at an imaginary target which changes with your perceptions as you evolve?
And finally:
Is it possible to gain enlightenment reading a book or even a thousand books? How would you know?
Do you know anyone who got enlightened reading books?
