Science a GoGo's Home Page Forums General Discussion Physics Forum Goodbye Post.

I would like to say a goodbye to Bill S, Bill Gill, Redenwur, Rev K, Ellis, Paul and probably quite a few I have missed .... Socratus not so much :-)

I wish you all well and hope you find what you are looking for in around and through science and science discussion.

There are very very few things that would ever offend me but as a member of Amnesty International "holocaust denial" or other genocides would be one of the very few.

The fact the moderators will not act on that thread is a disgrace and brings the whole site into disgrace.

I find it farcical that you can get a warning for calling someone "mentally retarded" yet "holocaust denial" is fine is beyond belief or anything I can stomach.

I thought I was pushing the limit in some deliberate heated exchanges with Paul over GOD and trolling but I was careful not to target any specific religion or version of GOD, seems my caution was probably not needed which is also wrong if it ever occured on the site.

Well I have said all that needs to be said ... to those of the faith godspeed and to those not Bon Voyage.

I survived WW2, just; our house having been hit by an incendiary when I was two. My father didn’t survive. However, when I look at the undeniable horrors of that time, I consider myself one of the fortunate ones.

Out of respect for those who suffered immeasurably more than I did, I feel I too must take a stand on this issue. The suggestion that this can be considered as a scientific topic because numbers are involved is ludicrous.

I would seek to deny no one the right to question historical events, and accept that possibly there are sites on which this discussion would be appropriate. I do not believe that SAGG is such a site.

I would be sad to leave SAGG, I have enjoyed the discussion and the company, but, like Orac, I do not intend continuing to post while the holocaust denial thread remains on this forum.

If that means goodbye, so be it.

So I take it the uproar is in regards to some idea that the posted information inspired a conclusion that posting information means whoever posts it, is supporting the illusion that the events didn't happen? Maybe even if the forum is open to support free posting of information regarding this thought, that it also supports the idea?

Reminds me of a case where an aryan extremist might want to leave a place because a black person was present.

So is Fat Freddy trying to promote the idea of the Holocaust being a non-issue? Or are there other reasons for the personal and emotional reactions?

FF keeps posting new stuff that questions what is unquestionable. Any body who posts asking if the undeniable is false, and keeps on doing it, is going to be tarred with the same brush as the deniers. For people who deny the Holocaust that makes them pretty much scumbags, and people are known by the company they keep. FF doesn't seem to take that to heart, so he seems to be another scumbag.

As far as what FF has posted is concerned it is not science in any shape or form, not even NQS. Therefore it has no place on a science forum. The thread should have been pulled immediately when it was first started.

Bill Gill

I don't see it as an issue.

IF you look at the way the Muslims have taken their opinion of someone else's opinion of Muhammad into violence, it shows us how people don't even want to take responsibility of their own thoughts and emotions. They would rather react violently and without wisdom or intelligence and pretend to believe that it is being caused by something outside of themselves.

Perpetuating this idea only gives liberties to those who wish to act irrationally and make excuses by pointing the finger at others for their choices.

A person can always ignore the post and and it will die a natural death.

Look at the Reverends topic on religions. 4 million hits and very few of those 4 million need to react or respond. They can intelligently ignore the topic and pass thru, without becoming emotionally disturbed.

The posts, having nothing remotely to do with science, have been removed.

Thanks, Kate. As I said in my earlier post, I have no quarrel with those who question history; I started doing it myself at a very tender age when I first began to think about the stories of the Crusades.
SAGG tends very easily to wander off the scientific track, often with entertaining results; I accept my share of the blame for that. Perhaps it’s a good thing to start a topic with science, though.
I hope Orac will come back now. With Kallog and Bryan seemingly long gone, we need someone who is willing to pick a stick up by the hot end.

orac
the things that you post are not focused on science they are
focused on stirring up emotional responces.

this goodbye post of yours does not belong in the physics forum...
you dont deserve such a grand farewell.

it should be moved to the not quite science forum as that would reflect the major percentage of content of what you have posted
in the SAGG forums.

frankly , I truly believe that this forum is on its last leg
because of people such as yourself.

nobody dares to start a thread on any topic because they dont want the ridicule and harassment that you and others on this
forum tend to freely dish out.

people start discussions because they want to discuss a topic.
not because they want you and your cohorts to bash them and their
thoughts or ideas into the sand that you have your head stuck in.

that said.

good riddance.

Sheesh. So much for perspectives in thought and reality.

True reactionary behavior exemplified as altruism. Who is righteous and just. Just like the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades... or even the preservation of the Aryan race thru the extermination of the invasive thought and the species that might endanger rigid thinking.

If science is going to be exemplified as defining human thought and emotion as being canned and preserved into a particular form, then there ain't gonna be much room for evolution of the species as long as freedom of thought and speech is continually met with censorship and strangulation.

Change the outside so that whatever is inside ones self can be preserved, and the emotional baggage protected with all superstitions held intact.

The "Burn the witch" mentality!!!

Because that makes sense as the smart thing to do, or the scientific approach?

I didn't read the post , I haven't been concerning myself with the
forum in a few days.

but , let me say this.

I think your right TT , the thread should have remained , and can be copied from a database backup then reposted.

what FF wrote about is a issue concerning human rights and the evils that are committed in the world because of hate.

the people who think that the holocaust did not occur have their reasons and views as to why they think that.

it is an issue that needs to be addressed , but not in this science forum.

because this science forum does not have a human rights forum.
it also does not have a religion forum , or a political forum , or a alternative energy forum.

I cannot understand why SAGG chooses to avoid these subjects as
they are popular topics on the internet that interest people.

this web site pays for itself through advertisement such as the
advertisement found below this post.

and those advertisements are generated by google from the content
of key words that the search engines find within in the post.

a few popular key word's on the internet today is

Barack Obama
and
Mitt Romney

lets see if that generates a campaign advertisement below.

BTW , it will probably look like harassment to Fat Freddy
because his thread was deleted and all the other non science threads that are in the various forum's are still there.

and because of that the forum will probably lose an active poster who does not engage in wolf pack harassment tactics.


hitler simply burned the books



then he burned the Jews



least we forget , how can we forget?

if we forget , we can expect it to happen again.

Not per se.. but it does have a nqs forum where all judgments regarding reality and belief that is not boxed into scientific format is tolerated.

Moderators on the other hand don't necessarily approach their function with scientific objectivity, nor does a scientist approach science without their beliefs and emotional baggage.

NQS , not quite science.

the name of the forum troubles me.

it should be called not science !

leave the quite out.

there would be no reason for any imaginable topic to be deleted
if it were called (not science).

that way no one should be offended by any religious topics.
or any other topic for that matter.

of course there would have to be some restriction's.
but the Terms Of Use policy should cover the restrictions.

TT, your posts suggest that you are a person who values logic. So let's look at the logic of that statement. We might learn from it.

Moderators don't necessarily approach their function with scientific objectivity.

Scientists don't necessarily approach their function with scientific objectivity.

Ergo: moderators approach their function as scientists approach their function.

What more could one ask for on a science forum.

I am sure the Mods will appreciate these supportive words of yours at a time when they must feel they are "damned if they do and damned if they don't".

Perhaps because it provides a measure of amusement to those to whom “God has given”, as Dame Edna put it, “the Gift of the ability to laugh at the misfortunes of others”.

Ellis might supply the Australian accent, if asked nicely.

If you really believe that, Paul, why do you so often rise to the bait? Why not just ignore him?

I think I'm the only one who has been the subject of a call for burning on SAGG! The cry of "Burn Bill S still rings in my ears.

Agreed. Hopefully, now that the thread is deleted; Orac will reconsider.

I was looking forward to getting his input on BECs and Royce Haynes' take on the BB.

No doubt, and this might also raise the question of whether the moderator took offense to the post that was deleted or simply obliged the whining that took place and was directed to their court.
If it had been me that was moderating this particular blip in the matrix, I would appreciate an opinion, but not necessarily join one in their stress and emotional baggage.

Why would you need to assume that either was the case, unless making such an asumption serves some need of your own?

I thought Kate's reason was clearly expressed, and perfectly justified.

Why assume then that Kates reasoning wasn't strictly a need and opinion of her own and has nothing to do with the majority as were those who threatened to leave?

Let's suppose the world operates from a source that is not democratic. What then determines what should or shouldn't be posted? Is it logic based on personal reasoning or logic based on universal principals?
It was clearly expressed. As for justification.. Does science remove itself from life? I would suggest the nqs forum carries many topics and conversations that have nothing to do with science as it is implied in this situation and NO ONE has removed any of it.

This is idealized when it is convenient as a sterile environment catering to science, yet, it is not so.

There is religion, politics, psychology and philosophy interwoven throughout this website.

I might also add, that in the past, moderators have moved items deemed as not science to the nqs forum without making the statement that it had nothing to do with science even tho it was missing the scientific attachments and beliefs.

There is no consistency in the personal approach when it is idealized from one person to another.
Democracy is a compromise and the Universe goes on regardless of what anyone thinks.

Anyone can stick their head in the sand and withdraw from the world, but the world will not withdraw itself from you or anyone else.

I will be sorry to say goodbye to Orac. He has had the courage to stand up for his principles, and I agree with him on this occasion whole heartedly. The atrocities committed against a whole race of people by the most civilised country on Earth during World War 2 must never ever be forgotten. It happened-- the numbers dead, massive though they be, are really secondary-- one Jew dead merely for being a Jew is one too many.

We need to remember, not because we want to punish but because we need to know how quickly we humans can descend to barbarity, and then turn around and smoothly deny responsibility and re-write history to suit ourselves. We do it all the time.

I find this whole episode very upsetting, and am VERY surprised that the very first post was not removed promptly.

Orac was correct.

oh come on now , give us a break , Ellis

I imagine that if orac left for any purpose it wasn't due to the holocaust issue.

he most likely lost his internet judging from his posting habbits.

crikey, lets not go making a martyr out of him.

can't we just burn Bill S and be done with it?

I see Paul is still as religious caring as ever ... maybe GOD came and took my net away ... haha.

No really I won't be returning I just popped thru to say a thank you for those who offered support on the issue.

My decision stands mainly because of the random nature of moderation on the forum.

TutorTurtle makes some points about this which are true and he more or less advocates an open field no holes bared approach. He advocates you can choose to ignore posts etc and in life we allow that but I do not have to attend KKK meetings or Neo_nazi meetings and give there message the time of day either I have the option to walk away.

What these scumbags do is choose forums that have an audience and try and spread their disgusting messages on them because no one would visit a website that was setup to discuss there garbage. You see this with preearth.net which has a traffic content lower than the black plague or the pox they simply can not generate any traffic and FatFreddy would have the same issue.

This forum supposedly has standards and I highlighted that by the fact when I personally insulted someone I was given a very stern warning ... so my question remained why was "holocaust denial" not given the same treatment.

Noone is stopping freedom of speach here if people want to put neo-nazi stuff out create there own website I will not object because I don't have to attend it. Simillarly i don't complain about sex sites and a massive number of other controversial sites that are on the internet.

Paul's response about all this is quite comical this is the guy who was warning me that he wanted to make an internet association complaint or have me banned for anti-god posts aimed at him. I am reading his responses I can't quite work out if he wants no moderation at all or complete moderation perhaps you could clarify Paul? I fear in TutorTurtles world you are going to get far worse than my views aimed squarely at your religion and no you can't complain so perhaps you better go for the complete moderation.

The moderators are also not delineating between pseudoscience garbage and science and enforcing the sections and there seems to be no clear policy on things which is something Paul picked up on that I do agree.

With no clear moderation policy I am therefore left between Paul bleating that I am being mean to him as he posts anti-science stupidity, Socratus posting inane rubbish, preearth posting anti-jewish and anti-US junk and now holocaust denial not even getting moderated.

To be blunt it just isn't worth my time and effort to turn the other cheek continually and when I do get frustrated and lash out I get moderated for making a personal insult?

We had a Amnesty International meeting 2 weeks ago at another group in asia trying to white wash the Khmeer Rouge genoicide in a similar way as FF was trying with the holocaust and i would be equally offended if such posts where allowed and under current moderation I can't see how it could be stopped.

The moderators and forum owners need to think about consistancy and where the forum goes from here.

Paul will no doubt be glad to see me go but the reality is people are not stupid and start ignoring him as I notice many of you do. In essence he like preearth gains from my and your presence and our sane rational science discussion because we create an audience for him to try and hijack which he could reach with his stupidity on it's own.

So anyhow a rather long post and I might drop thru from time to time but I do not intend to be an active participant under the current moderation rules which simply creates an audience from the nutcase and lunatics.

Peace and good luck to you all.

so your intentions are to become a wound that is never allowed to heal.

I was thinking about leaving before you left , you just beat me to it.

I want to find a science forum or a alternative energy forum or a survival forum or a forum that has all the above , where people exchange ideas and work together to accomplish goals.

this forum is a great place for negative input , but I have evolved beyond that.

or I am evolving.

Not really. More of a conscious approach where a psychological balance is achieved, and where objectivity is a reality.
See, here's the thing. FF posed a question regarding the information (links) he attached to his post. it would have been easy enough to respond with the personal opinion without getting all viral about whether there was any moral issues regarding posting links to ideas that challenged the known history of the world.
I personally never saw any comments made by FF that he was a flaming Neo Nazi or that he advocated any of it as truth. He did ask a question if there was any plausible science in the challenges made towards the ideas of piling so many people in a room at the same time. It (the idea of extermination) wasn't removed from the reality, but rather how it was possible and whether the numbers were exaggerated seemed to be the challenge. At least from my perspective.

Obviously if he had come forth with an attachment of swastika's and Heil Hitler salutes followed by it never happened claim... after posting the links it would be obvious he had an agenda.
What I observed was a whole lot of reacting to the link because of personal feelings. It wasn't exactly what I would call a scientific reaction for all the fanfare and claims that followed the deletion as being scientific and this being a strictly science forum.

At least we agree that the moderators have no scientific approach to moderation here, where sometimes the definition of science gets to be stretched if the topic seems less of an emotional issue for all involved to be thrown in the nqs section of this website.



Once again it had nothing to do with Holocaust denial but rather emotional baggage regarding control..

But that is not the issue here, 'cause once again... FF didn't come here and outright preach the idea that it didn't happen. IF he had then I would imagine the emotional reactions of all here would have been much more volatile and maybe even entertaining.


That's always the paranoid point of view, but in reality common sense usually prevails when the extremists can't get a permanent foothold in the reality of the living.
Sometimes its necessary to let sanity reveal itself in and amongst the paranoia of all those who have given their freedoms of thought and action to the authority behind the pseudo scientific/political powers that influence the world as it is, where people ignore each other to protect their own interests.

Ah yes, the proverbial sterile environment. Can it really exist and would humanity really want to live in one?


It's not a moderation issue. It's an intelligence issue based on awareness and objectivity, or psychological stability.
Unfortunately Psychology is not quite science, and so psychological standards are not a scientific issue. That (the underlying psychological issue) becomes more of an emotional issue......
It's not worth your time and effort to expand yourself beyond reactionary behavior? Sheesh no one has the time anymore other than to just throw their sensibility and reason to the wind. People are just lazy, and allow their emotions to rule their thoughts and actions.
Oh what a world, what a world.....


Oh I'm sure their projections of the future of this site are constantly being stamped into changing and evolving ideas based on their changing beliefs. They are not likely any different than any other human with an ego that has it's influence in beliefs that are attached with emotional baggage. I doubt you will find anyone of the moderators make a claim to be different than anyone else.


Peace... Hmmmm... Is that a subjective thing or an objective thing?
One mans paradise is another mans hell.
--------------------------------------------------

Negative or positive.. Contrast is necessary for evolution and the difference between light and darkness often reveals that projections of belief and the delusions of misperception create distortions in reality.

What is necessary for growth and evolution is often pushed away when it threatens the ego and the personal idea of comfort. Pride (ego) does not like being threatened.

I am not sure if you are the most tolerant person on the planet or the most naive TurtleTutor :-)

So can I ask if I decided to post comical pictures of the prophet mohamad and ask if they are funny, or perhaps naked female images and ask are they rude or anti-jesus images and ask if they offend is that ok ... I mean I am not sure?

It's easy to use I am not sure, just checking and a mirriad of other reasons why I need to post such things, I just need a really long list of "GOOD ENOUGH REASONS".

yes contrast is necessary , but contrast requires
positive and negative input.

not just negative.

as I said this forum is a great place for negative input.

and as I said , I am evolving
(away from the negative only input).

I haven't felt as if I was threatened by anyone or what
they have written , that would be like being afraid of the
invisible man.

I just want to make it clear that if I do leave the forum
it is because I want to be able to discuss a topic.

not argue about a topic with people who cant discuss a topic.

in this forum if it looks as if the discussion is going
in a direction away from the person that you are having the discussion with , then some other topic is brought up to try and sway the discussion in favor of the person your having a discussion with.

orac's favorite vector is someones religious belief's
as soon as he gets stumped he starts crying about religion.

that is not a discussion.

as far as I know of there's no way to keep you from posting
any type of image.

so sure go ahead and feel free to post whatever you think would
be appropriate.

just remember it must conform to the internet rules.

those rules should be available on the internet , we shouldn't
have to provide you with a long list.
that is your responsibility.

Apparently according to TT so long as you are asking a question with it it isn't offensive or illegal and this stuff exists on the internet so you just link it with a question and your post.

Essentially thats all FatFreddy was doing posting neo-nazi u-tube videos because he wasn't sure and a needed to talk about them and that is okay according to TT.

Even without the out and out illegal, what Freddy was posting is only illegal in 17 countries so perhaps we better talk about which country what is illegal in Paul. A point I also made to you about a complaint you had at me and tried to make me subject to the laws of Australia.

There is an Australian called Julian Assange I am sure we would be interested in discussing internet illegal with as well.

Lets not even do illegal so lets take say comics of the prophet mohamad or anti-jesus comics for example which are not illegal in any places unless they are certain contexts such as to incite racial or religious hatred.

Thats how the french paper got to publish some comics of the phrophet mohamad yesterday.

Similarly as I pointed out to your once before if I went to town on god there is nothing you could do it is not an offense anywhere to be anti-god zealot yet I am sure I would offend you.

I could become a devil worship zealot I am sure that would offend some as well and a pile of other borderline things.

I however do not think such behaviour is acceptable TT would disagree.

The bottom line is this is why you have moderators on forums and that is supposedly their role to define a consistant policy and guideline on what may and may not be discussed on the forum. Free speech exists start your own website if you have something to say which a forum will not allow.

Most forums moderate a fact our mate preearth dislikes because for obvious reason he gets moderated alot

http://www.preearth.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=26&sid=e61b2292695eea5f7a048eb46451fe70



Was hardly surprising to me ... you will note SAGG was one of the those not to ban preearth even given the nature of many of his postings and shows the state of moderation of SAGG.

Similarly socratus carries an almost legendary banned list from forums for posting inane garbage but still he survives on SAGG :-)

I should also say socratus has own site as well http://www.socratus.com/eng/abouteng.html and the same as preearth it generates about as much traffic as the black plague and thats why he needs to post on more sane accessed forum sites.

And you seem like a naive hippy kumbaya singing tree hugger but hey who am I to judge :-)

I like a good whine & wine especially my naive friends and I am a bad boy because apparently I upset Paul all the time because I beat up on his god :-)

I am not upset about holocaust denial I am aware there are nutters who believe that stuff what iw as upset about was it being on a site I thought had higher standards. Ok I have changed my view on that.

Can I ask what you view would be if someone starts a post on the current anti-islamic movie that is causing alot of problems around the world?




If you bothered to read anything I wrote you would realise I said I would refuse to participate in any science discussions because I don't want to give life to the lunatics and nutcases on the forum.

This thread is about moderation and lack there off on SAGG and I am perfectly happy to participate in it.

How long that is well thats in the lap of the GOD, DEVIL, GOAT, DEITY or whatever else you believe in.

My sentiments exactly. Obviously you want to be noticed otherwise why the big, "I'm leaving rant" while continuing to hang around and whine about everything and everyone here on this site that doesn't please you?

Apparently? You applied the title to yourself, so I'm guessing you've made it your mission to upset your so called friends... or at least the moderators, since you're not here for the science.

Sure you are, you already said you were.followed by..
(note that I left your spelling mistakes intact so that you know I haven't tampered with your own words)

Your view on what the site standards should be or whether you should invest yourself in what others think?

I think you contradict yourself. You seem to just want to gain some kind of control and are having a hissy fit because you aren't getting what you want.

Sure.


OF course you did. And you said good bye to these people:
because they would never join you in any discussions other than a science discussion, as you restrict yourself (definitively speaking).


Oh good, then all those who said you will be missed can breathe easier while you hang around and pester the ones you call friends to maintain your Bad Boy image.

Since you're not here for the science....

Doesn't matter what I believe. You're making it up as you go along, since it's not about science for you anymore.


A note to the Moderators.. perhaps we can change the title of this thread to Goodbye to my participation as a scientific participant, and hello to "My Opinion of SAGG and the Moderators" since Orac is just blowing smoke around any rash ideas of leaving Sagg.

BTW..I see my prediction came true regarding the deletion of my last response to your questions. so I'm gonna predict a possibility that this thread will be deleted along with the other thread because it just ain't science, and you might not be given special treatment to have a thread that is just about your opinion of the moderators and this website.
At the least it might get moved from the physics forum section to the NQS section.. But my money is on deletion.
If I lose the bet then at least you can continue to badger your friends as well as the moderators of this website.

Life is interesting... is it not?

I'm also thinking those that had a higher opinion of you have lowered the bar a tad.. as you now decide to take the emotional position and leave scientific approaches behind... since you're not here for the science.

Poor TT .. it's ok I still love you ... lets sing Kumbaya together and it will be alright.

Now you have had your little rant it feels good doesn't it now take a cup of camomile tea and get on with your life.

As you said it's not about science on here for me anymore the thread will die naturally if you stop posting unless I was going to have a long conversation with myself :-)

I just had a look at the "Who's Online".

I am here with 101 guests and 2 spiders. I find myself wondering what those guests think of the content of our threads, and how many of that 101 will join to further their interest in science.

Tesla2 has just joined with a topic that is distinctly outside standard thinking. In a few days it will be interesting to compare the number of posts in his thread to the number of personal rants in this one.

Let's not leave the science to the spiders.

It's always all right.

Life is ongoing, it never stops. So... take it all in, for none of it is more or less life. Right?
I'm sure it will, eventually. However I think everyone just wanted to make sure you weren't alone in these trying times where you have decided to focus on what is really important for you.
-------------------------------------------------------------


People always find what they want. Why fear the occasional stress and feelings that everyone has.
If you try to keep the natural parts of life from happening and get all sphinctered, then you forget about what you really enjoy in life and end up giving all sensibility to your stress and emotional baggage.
Like Orac dedicating his time to complaining about this forum instead of being here for science.

Psychologically speaking, if the pipes are clogged, nothing flows.
Because people are afraid of their own feelings, they try to keep others from having theirs, so they don't have to deal with their own.

Science is not sterile, but the ego will try to eliminate all things that it fears and the more it becomes encumbered with fear based stress, the less the imagination will function. When that happens you end up losing sight of reality and giving all your attention to what it is you don't like rather than what it is you really love in life.

Words of wisdom, no doubt, but as a response to your quote from my post they are “but sounding brass and tinkling cymbals”.

I see Paul=TutorTurtle sockpuppet can't let the thread die hence the bait ... I thought that might be the case you do like the last word :-)

You really need to not get more aggressive at god and religious stuff if you are going to play a different sock puppet.

Hint if you really were the tolerant type you would just have ignored my last post ... one always uses the right bait when fishing!

The thread was on post responses Bill S I have taken it off now because there is not much left to say or do in it. I am still very uncertain still what I will do with forum participation going forward and whether I can be bothered we will see there is still mostly just junk being posted as you can see and this thread has become one of those :-)

Or being tolerant, I see no reason as absolute. Opportunities to expand truths are always a choice to continue with truth, rather than platitudes or assumptions.

Not at all in need of the last word..
Your turn..
The thread started out that way, since it was initiated as an emotional breakdown due to the inability to control other people and their actions.

Of course. When emotions are high, truth is irrelevant.

So what is the idea behind the sock puppet did you think people wouldn't know?

Hint if you were all about brother lee love and free speech this would have died 20 posts ago.

So long as the thread rolls I will be here ;-)

Your delusion that Paul and I are the same? No one can stop a person from thinking what they will.

Why because no one (including me) would have anything to say?
If everyone were about brotherly love and free speech, emotional tirades like the one that initiated this thread would be unlikely. You could have vented your thoughts about the holocaust on the thread that was deleted, and continued to believe that FF was a Neo Nazi. Just like you believe Paul and I are the same person.

Oh good. More testimony to the illusion of your goodbye speech.

No doubt w'ell see you drift back to where you were pestering your friends to keep up your self image of the Sagg Bad Boy.

Orac; why are you squandering your time and effort on this thread that achieves nothing but feed the desires of the verbose?

You are capable of much more valuable input in other areas.

It really matters little who agrees or disagrees with your science; we need a variety of views to sustain discussion. A combination of your QM and Paul's physics brings out some interesting thoughts for "searchers" like myself.

Get out of this thread, and let's have some science, however off-beat it might be.

I have great experience with plagiarism from students over the years I am very good at detecting it.

To be honest you are terrible ... let me guess you weren't even smart enough to use two different e-mails for the two accounts which a moderator or admin can easily check .. haha

You weren't sure how to play this you tried avoiding the subject initially now your going for the soft denial.

The problem was you got to involved for your supposed personal brother lee love type too early and I was already suspicious by post 2. You gave the game away in your long rant post and your response to how my title came about etc.

You have now invested a hell of a lot of time attacking me in this thread for your supposed brotherly love type and thats what brought you undone.

Paul is the only one on this site I have had adverse interactions enough to generate that reaction so you are either the worst tolerant brother lee love person in the world as remember before this thread supposedly I had never spoken to you .... or ..... you are Paul :=)

Would be interesting to be a moderator or admin about now :-)

we'll , I suppose the cat's out of the bag , Orac.

I logged in as paul this time , my other identity who has
been discussing this with you was doing such a good job of it
that I was not going to allow this identity to interfere.

however , my other identities , Bill , Bill5, Bill6, Bill S
Redeneur, Amaranth RoseII, Mike Kremer, Fat Freddy, Kate, and of course Tutor Turtle are all sitting on the fence , undecided
about whether you are socratus or not.

but I guess time will tell.

it shows up in your post like red paint on a yellow barn.

myself and others who are not my other identities are thinking
that you invented socratus in order to have someone to ridicule
so that you could boost your social standing in the forum.

which is common in internet forums these days among people such as yourself.

will you admin it?

I think you will deny it.

I was hoping we could at least level the playing field first.

The crackpots and nutcases I don't mind so long as we have some rules and understandings and so it just doesn't become mindnumbingly boring and stupid like the discussion of Paul physics turned into.

Besides my stupid goodbye thread we have a great selection in the physics/science section for the period since I left.

"My philosophical ideas" .. a complaint that science won't allow nutcases to publish. That of coarse is garbage anyone can publish it's just we have rules of which there are whopping 3 and the nutcases can't even adhere to those 3.

"Our Modern Scientific Philosophy" .. a cryptic meaningless post by socratus.

"CERN/OPERA - IKARUS - TSOLKAS" ... another whackjob that can't understand the only 3 rules science has but at least in his favour he understands one of the rules that an idea has to be testable he fails at understanding the other 2.

I am hardly missing out on a lot at the moment Bill S ... I think I had more fun trying to get you burnt at the stake in that post we had going :-)

although Paul has presented a less than normal approach to Physics
he does have a few interesting points in his observations , I have
considered a few of your points as well.

perhaps if we decide to avoid the unnecessary jargon in the threads we can return to discussions concerning science.

[edit]
Orac

I forgot to log out as paul , and when I replied to your last post , I used the paul account instead of the Bill s account.

and since you have most likely already seen this post
( I noticed that you are logged in now )
I decided to leave it , because I have already told you who we are.

also, I logged in as Amaranth Rose II , because Im going to bann you soon , or I might bann myself or one of my other identities.

Im just in a banning mood , heck I might even close the web site down for a few days because I also own the web site.

[/edit]

Allow the stress to move thru. Once the emotional tirade is over it's likely he might begin to reintegrate.

Leveling the playing field takes some time and control. The latter of the two seems to be the issue at the moment.

That is what this post is really about.
You don't have control.

An I.P. Address check would be better than an e-mail check, to see if either personalities are even posting from the same country.

TT

the IP address can be mucked about by using a remote connecion
to my home computer in essex, this way I cannot be found out
by the IP address.

if Im in a airport or a hotel or in my vehicle all I need to do
is to remote into any one of my home computers throughout the world and then connect to SAGG as that Identity.

so the IP isn't the best method.

Only an admin could do that and to be honest I don't think anyone cares :=)

TT perhaps you are the worlds worst brother lee love type and free speech advocate and you did just take an instant dislike to me ... I am not going to lose sleep over the issue.

Only seems to be important to you two for some strange reason and long conversations won't change my view don't bother get on with life :-)

Perhaps try letting the thread die it has been on the active list way too long :-)

I dont think anyone is trying to change your views Orac.

were just trying to get you to stop with the constant ranting
and raving about peoples personal beliefs.

you will never change someones beliefs by arguing so just stop trying.

its a little after 2 am in sydney so I'll have to pick this back up again in the morning.

Oh good, the accusation that Paul and I are the same personality was just another rant that turned out to be mindless chatter. Glad we could help you move thru these emotional glitches so Bill can have your attention again.

Don't necessarily like or dislike anyone. You can like someone and still get pretty angry with them and not like them when you are dealing with emotional attachments to control. So I've learned to recognise that you're not your feelings even if you have them. So being objective is a bit easier and as a result control is not an issue.
Glad you could come to a rational resolve.

Wasn't thinking you could change your view. Not all assumptions are rational, and not all people can deal with reality.
As for getting on with life.. This is life. Perhaps you might some day see that it doesn't start and stop every time you don't have a grip on the world as it is unfolding in your experiences, whether you like them or not.There's that life and death thing again.
Perhaps you might ask yourself whether what you originally posted had any real life in it in the first place. Since you are still following what you started?

You are correct Paul you won't change my view I trust my instincts.

If TT wants to convince me he really is a different person there is a simple way post your best anti-god post you can muster ... something Paul would never do :-)

Other than that ignore my view and let the thread die ... who really cares.

My stance BTW remains really unchanged from the initial posting I have been fairly consistant throughout with my intent.

Anti God? You mean there is no God?

Well if you exclude me ... I am GOD voted myself in to that position because apparently I am emotionally and mentally unstable so I have good form for doing it.

Stop now or we will upset Paul.

Stop what?
You from voting yourself in as God?

Wouldn't think of it. Can't wait to see what you decide to do with this forum now that you are God.

Perhaps you can make yourself a moderator..

Who wants to be a moderator when they can be a GOD :-)

Good I was hoping you would support me in my quest as the free speech type you are ... so I can count on your support for my right to speak up that I am the one the only true GOD?

I suspect I am going to need alot of support because I am going to offend alot of people but it's my right isn't it TT?

...and Fat Freddy's Cat?

I suppose it's my sense of the ridiculous that brings me back into this ridiculous thread, but if you didn't laugh at it, there might be a risk of depression.

That should give TT something to wax expansive about.

What have I done?

I had already logged out , but I wanted to watch a show before
I went to sleep, the nine network is pretty good.

and I wanted to see if anyone has posted anything interesting.

anyway got to go for now, I have an appointment at glenbrook
tomorrow so Im catching a choppa hop from richmond in the am if I get up in time.

No. The other cat.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/ca/FatFreddiesCat.jpg/220px-FatFreddiesCat.jpg

I totally support your right to say what you believe. However as long as you got the right to believe what you want, so does everyone else. That's where the trouble starts...

And you have to see the humour in the scenario I have setup here ... :-)

Yeah I get that I will have to accept "holocaust denial" discussion but Paul and now you are going to have to accept that I have the right to be the "one true GOD".

Now that would be an interesting forum :-)

You've exposed the underlying source of all inspiration for true living. To follow the great guru, R. Crumb.

What this whole whine about the holocaust denial?
You have just as much right to make the claim as anyone does.
However, its one thing to claim to be able to fly, but then jumping off the cliff might decide for you whether or not your claims meet yours and every one elses expectations.

As you might imagine God hasn't met the expectations of most people in any history.

Of course, God might argue that that was because people were expecting the wrong things.

We all have a right to our expectations, but if we are going to have gods, they must have a right to expectations as well.

BTW, if we stick with this thread it could catch up with the Philosophy of Religions. All we need to do is get Rev posting in it.

No doubt he will if given the proper invitation to advertise himself.

Mentioning God is likely to be a way that makes that happen.

Um- I'm very interested, possibly curious, as to why God should fulfil OUR expectations? Are we not supposed to live up to those of him/her? Next I'll be reading that the God concept is a human construct!

This area of this topic should be transferred--it seems wrong to debate it without Rev!

Isn't there a conflict regarding the proof or experience of God and what we are told to believe? If everyone knew exactly what they were dealing with, rather than going on whatever we are told by the authority that doesn't live up to its image regarding God, there might be a better image of God and its voice or it's representation.
How many religions are built upon the claim to know God while condemning the shortcomings of false believers?


Unless you want to believe that the God concept is implanted in our DNA, then yes all constructs of measure and conceptual imagery are human interpretations based on the human idea and its attachments to reality.

Because he is the quintessential authority?

Besides, he claims to only dialogue and will never admit to entering a debate, especially concerning God.
He'll only ramble on about how old (er excuse me) how long he has been on the planet knowing what is what and who is who trying to give you the impression that old age means knowledge and wisdom.

He's changed his acronyms and his definitions of God many times since I've known him. For all his years he is still trying to attach himself to an idea that might impress enough people to help him believe he hasn't wasted his time or gone on without some kind of real relationship with whatever he wants to believe in.
Like many his age, he hopes to leave an imprint where nothing is permanent so that life has more meaning than just being born to live for a few experiences of personal belief before you die.

No it was an excercise in logic to arguments I set out to put you and Paul on opposite sides of an argument to see if you really were one and the same. I got a bonus in being able to also make a point! I note Paul hasn't come back to the thread .. hmmm.

I am sorely tempted to support your free speech view and endure issues that I dislike for the chance to be the "one and only true GOD Orac" could be alot of fun but I am sure others would not see the humour in it :-)




No one expects the spanish inquisition :-)

Thought you were sure of your determination, and the issue was closed.
Interesting to see you only holding the assumed position, along with the delusions of grandeur.

No guts, no glory.
But then you obviously are coming to your senses after losing sight of reality, and after holding so many assumptions as absolute truth.