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Bill S. #45507 09/19/12 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Quote:
whether the moderator took offense to the post that was deleted or simply obliged the whining


Why would you need to assume that either was the case, unless making such an asumption serves some need of your own?

Why assume then that Kates reasoning wasn't strictly a need and opinion of her own and has nothing to do with the majority as were those who threatened to leave?

Let's suppose the world operates from a source that is not democratic. What then determines what should or shouldn't be posted? Is it logic based on personal reasoning or logic based on universal principals?
Originally Posted By: Bill S.

I thought Kate's reason was clearly expressed, and perfectly justified.
It was clearly expressed. As for justification.. Does science remove itself from life? I would suggest the nqs forum carries many topics and conversations that have nothing to do with science as it is implied in this situation and NO ONE has removed any of it.

This is idealized when it is convenient as a sterile environment catering to science, yet, it is not so.

There is religion, politics, psychology and philosophy interwoven throughout this website.

I might also add, that in the past, moderators have moved items deemed as not science to the nqs forum without making the statement that it had nothing to do with science even tho it was missing the scientific attachments and beliefs.

There is no consistency in the personal approach when it is idealized from one person to another.
Democracy is a compromise and the Universe goes on regardless of what anyone thinks.

Anyone can stick their head in the sand and withdraw from the world, but the world will not withdraw itself from you or anyone else.


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




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Orac #45511 09/20/12 06:38 AM
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I will be sorry to say goodbye to Orac. He has had the courage to stand up for his principles, and I agree with him on this occasion whole heartedly. The atrocities committed against a whole race of people by the most civilised country on Earth during World War 2 must never ever be forgotten. It happened-- the numbers dead, massive though they be, are really secondary-- one Jew dead merely for being a Jew is one too many.

We need to remember, not because we want to punish but because we need to know how quickly we humans can descend to barbarity, and then turn around and smoothly deny responsibility and re-write history to suit ourselves. We do it all the time.

I find this whole episode very upsetting, and am VERY surprised that the very first post was not removed promptly.

Orac was correct.

Ellis #45521 09/20/12 07:50 PM
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oh come on now , give us a break , Ellis

I imagine that if orac left for any purpose it wasn't due to the holocaust issue.

he most likely lost his internet judging from his posting habbits.

crikey, lets not go making a martyr out of him.

can't we just burn Bill S and be done with it?


3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
paul #45538 09/21/12 01:31 PM
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I see Paul is still as religious caring as ever ... maybe GOD came and took my net away ... haha.

No really I won't be returning I just popped thru to say a thank you for those who offered support on the issue.

My decision stands mainly because of the random nature of moderation on the forum.

TutorTurtle makes some points about this which are true and he more or less advocates an open field no holes bared approach. He advocates you can choose to ignore posts etc and in life we allow that but I do not have to attend KKK meetings or Neo_nazi meetings and give there message the time of day either I have the option to walk away.

What these scumbags do is choose forums that have an audience and try and spread their disgusting messages on them because no one would visit a website that was setup to discuss there garbage. You see this with preearth.net which has a traffic content lower than the black plague or the pox they simply can not generate any traffic and FatFreddy would have the same issue.

This forum supposedly has standards and I highlighted that by the fact when I personally insulted someone I was given a very stern warning ... so my question remained why was "holocaust denial" not given the same treatment.

Noone is stopping freedom of speach here if people want to put neo-nazi stuff out create there own website I will not object because I don't have to attend it. Simillarly i don't complain about sex sites and a massive number of other controversial sites that are on the internet.

Paul's response about all this is quite comical this is the guy who was warning me that he wanted to make an internet association complaint or have me banned for anti-god posts aimed at him. I am reading his responses I can't quite work out if he wants no moderation at all or complete moderation perhaps you could clarify Paul? I fear in TutorTurtles world you are going to get far worse than my views aimed squarely at your religion and no you can't complain so perhaps you better go for the complete moderation.

The moderators are also not delineating between pseudoscience garbage and science and enforcing the sections and there seems to be no clear policy on things which is something Paul picked up on that I do agree.

With no clear moderation policy I am therefore left between Paul bleating that I am being mean to him as he posts anti-science stupidity, Socratus posting inane rubbish, preearth posting anti-jewish and anti-US junk and now holocaust denial not even getting moderated.

To be blunt it just isn't worth my time and effort to turn the other cheek continually and when I do get frustrated and lash out I get moderated for making a personal insult?

We had a Amnesty International meeting 2 weeks ago at another group in asia trying to white wash the Khmeer Rouge genoicide in a similar way as FF was trying with the holocaust and i would be equally offended if such posts where allowed and under current moderation I can't see how it could be stopped.

The moderators and forum owners need to think about consistancy and where the forum goes from here.

Paul will no doubt be glad to see me go but the reality is people are not stupid and start ignoring him as I notice many of you do. In essence he like preearth gains from my and your presence and our sane rational science discussion because we create an audience for him to try and hijack which he could reach with his stupidity on it's own.

So anyhow a rather long post and I might drop thru from time to time but I do not intend to be an active participant under the current moderation rules which simply creates an audience from the nutcase and lunatics.

Peace and good luck to you all.


I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
Orac #45542 09/21/12 02:44 PM
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so your intentions are to become a wound that is never allowed to heal.

I was thinking about leaving before you left , you just beat me to it.

I want to find a science forum or a alternative energy forum or a survival forum or a forum that has all the above , where people exchange ideas and work together to accomplish goals.

this forum is a great place for negative input , but I have evolved beyond that.

or I am evolving.


3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
Orac #45543 09/21/12 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: Orac


Tutor Turtle makes some points about this which are true and he more or less advocates an open field no holes barred approach.

Not really. More of a conscious approach where a psychological balance is achieved, and where objectivity is a reality.
Originally Posted By: Orac
He advocates you can choose to ignore posts etc and in life we allow that but I do not have to attend KKK meetings or Neo_nazi meetings and give there message the time of day either I have the option to walk away.

See, here's the thing. FF posed a question regarding the information (links) he attached to his post. it would have been easy enough to respond with the personal opinion without getting all viral about whether there was any moral issues regarding posting links to ideas that challenged the known history of the world.
I personally never saw any comments made by FF that he was a flaming Neo Nazi or that he advocated any of it as truth. He did ask a question if there was any plausible science in the challenges made towards the ideas of piling so many people in a room at the same time. It (the idea of extermination) wasn't removed from the reality, but rather how it was possible and whether the numbers were exaggerated seemed to be the challenge. At least from my perspective.

Obviously if he had come forth with an attachment of swastika's and Heil Hitler salutes followed by it never happened claim... after posting the links it would be obvious he had an agenda.
What I observed was a whole lot of reacting to the link because of personal feelings. It wasn't exactly what I would call a scientific reaction for all the fanfare and claims that followed the deletion as being scientific and this being a strictly science forum.

At least we agree that the moderators have no scientific approach to moderation here, where sometimes the definition of science gets to be stretched if the topic seems less of an emotional issue for all involved to be thrown in the nqs section of this website.


Originally Posted By: Orac

This forum supposedly has standards and I highlighted that by the fact when I personally insulted someone I was given a very stern warning ... so my question remained why was "holocaust denial" not given the same treatment.

Once again it had nothing to do with Holocaust denial but rather emotional baggage regarding control..
Originally Posted By: Orac

No one is stopping freedom of speech here if people want to put neo-nazi stuff out create there own website I will not object because I don't have to attend it. Simillarly i don't complain about sex sites and a massive number of other controversial sites that are on the internet.

But that is not the issue here, 'cause once again... FF didn't come here and outright preach the idea that it didn't happen. IF he had then I would imagine the emotional reactions of all here would have been much more volatile and maybe even entertaining.

Originally Posted By: Orac
I fear in Tutor Turtles world you are going to get far worse than my views aimed squarely at your religion and no you can't complain so perhaps you better go for the complete moderation.

That's always the paranoid point of view, but in reality common sense usually prevails when the extremists can't get a permanent foothold in the reality of the living.
Sometimes its necessary to let sanity reveal itself in and amongst the paranoia of all those who have given their freedoms of thought and action to the authority behind the pseudo scientific/political powers that influence the world as it is, where people ignore each other to protect their own interests.
Originally Posted By: Orac

The moderators are also not delineating between pseudoscience garbage and science and enforcing the sections and there seems to be no clear policy on things which is something Paul picked up on that I do agree.

Ah yes, the proverbial sterile environment. Can it really exist and would humanity really want to live in one?

Originally Posted By: Orac

With no clear moderation policy I am therefore left between Paul bleating that I am being mean to him as he posts anti-science stupidity, Socratus posting inane rubbish, preearth posting anti-jewish and anti-US junk and now holocaust denial not even getting moderated.

It's not a moderation issue. It's an intelligence issue based on awareness and objectivity, or psychological stability.
Unfortunately Psychology is not quite science, and so psychological standards are not a scientific issue. That (the underlying psychological issue) becomes more of an emotional issue......
Originally Posted By: Orac

To be blunt it just isn't worth my time and effort to turn the other cheek continually and when I do get frustrated and lash out I get moderated for making a personal insult?
It's not worth your time and effort to expand yourself beyond reactionary behavior? Sheesh no one has the time anymore other than to just throw their sensibility and reason to the wind. People are just lazy, and allow their emotions to rule their thoughts and actions.
Oh what a world, what a world.....

Originally Posted By: Orac

The moderators and forum owners need to think about consistancy and where the forum goes from here.

Oh I'm sure their projections of the future of this site are constantly being stamped into changing and evolving ideas based on their changing beliefs. They are not likely any different than any other human with an ego that has it's influence in beliefs that are attached with emotional baggage. I doubt you will find anyone of the moderators make a claim to be different than anyone else.

Originally Posted By: Orac

Peace and good luck to you all.

Peace... Hmmmm... Is that a subjective thing or an objective thing?
One mans paradise is another mans hell.
--------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By: paul

this forum is a great place for negative input , but I have evolved beyond that.

or I am evolving.


Negative or positive.. Contrast is necessary for evolution and the difference between light and darkness often reveals that projections of belief and the delusions of misperception create distortions in reality.

What is necessary for growth and evolution is often pushed away when it threatens the ego and the personal idea of comfort. Pride (ego) does not like being threatened.


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




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I am not sure if you are the most tolerant person on the planet or the most naive TurtleTutor :-)

So can I ask if I decided to post comical pictures of the prophet mohamad and ask if they are funny, or perhaps naked female images and ask are they rude or anti-jesus images and ask if they offend is that ok ... I mean I am not sure?

It's easy to use I am not sure, just checking and a mirriad of other reasons why I need to post such things, I just need a really long list of "GOOD ENOUGH REASONS".

Last edited by Orac; 09/21/12 05:17 PM.

I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
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Quote:
Negative or positive.. Contrast is necessary for evolution and the difference between light and darkness often reveals that projections of belief and the delusions of misperception create distortions in reality.

What is necessary for growth and evolution is often pushed away when it threatens the ego and the personal idea of comfort. Pride (ego) does not like being threatened.


yes contrast is necessary , but contrast requires
positive and negative input.

not just negative.

as I said this forum is a great place for negative input.

and as I said , I am evolving
(away from the negative only input).

I haven't felt as if I was threatened by anyone or what
they have written , that would be like being afraid of the
invisible man.

I just want to make it clear that if I do leave the forum
it is because I want to be able to discuss a topic.

not argue about a topic with people who cant discuss a topic.

in this forum if it looks as if the discussion is going
in a direction away from the person that you are having the discussion with , then some other topic is brought up to try and sway the discussion in favor of the person your having a discussion with.

orac's favorite vector is someones religious belief's
as soon as he gets stumped he starts crying about religion.

that is not a discussion.



3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
Orac #45547 09/22/12 12:05 AM
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Quote:
So can I ask if I decided to post comical pictures of the prophet mohamad and ask if they are funny, or perhaps naked female images and ask are they rude or anti-jesus images and ask if they offend is that ok ... I mean I am not sure?


as far as I know of there's no way to keep you from posting
any type of image.

so sure go ahead and feel free to post whatever you think would
be appropriate.

just remember it must conform to the internet rules.

those rules should be available on the internet , we shouldn't
have to provide you with a long list.
that is your responsibility.


3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
paul #45549 09/22/12 02:01 AM
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Apparently according to TT so long as you are asking a question with it it isn't offensive or illegal and this stuff exists on the internet so you just link it with a question and your post.

Essentially thats all FatFreddy was doing posting neo-nazi u-tube videos because he wasn't sure and a needed to talk about them and that is okay according to TT.

Even without the out and out illegal, what Freddy was posting is only illegal in 17 countries so perhaps we better talk about which country what is illegal in Paul. A point I also made to you about a complaint you had at me and tried to make me subject to the laws of Australia.

There is an Australian called Julian Assange I am sure we would be interested in discussing internet illegal with as well.

Lets not even do illegal so lets take say comics of the prophet mohamad or anti-jesus comics for example which are not illegal in any places unless they are certain contexts such as to incite racial or religious hatred.

Thats how the french paper got to publish some comics of the phrophet mohamad yesterday.

Similarly as I pointed out to your once before if I went to town on god there is nothing you could do it is not an offense anywhere to be anti-god zealot yet I am sure I would offend you.

I could become a devil worship zealot I am sure that would offend some as well and a pile of other borderline things.

I however do not think such behaviour is acceptable TT would disagree.

The bottom line is this is why you have moderators on forums and that is supposedly their role to define a consistant policy and guideline on what may and may not be discussed on the forum. Free speech exists start your own website if you have something to say which a forum will not allow.

Most forums moderate a fact our mate preearth dislikes because for obvious reason he gets moderated alot

http://www.preearth.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=26&sid=e61b2292695eea5f7a048eb46451fe70

Quote:

While advertising my paper (the one at http://preearth.net/) to various forums, I have found that censorship is very much alive and well, on the internet.

These sites deleted the article (this one) I posted to them and immediately banned me.

...<snip>

The above is not the entire list of sites that censored me, just the one's that I kept a record of.

This was over 35% of the sites I published on.


Was hardly surprising to me ... you will note SAGG was one of the those not to ban preearth even given the nature of many of his postings and shows the state of moderation of SAGG.

Similarly socratus carries an almost legendary banned list from forums for posting inane garbage but still he survives on SAGG :-)

I should also say socratus has own site as well http://www.socratus.com/eng/abouteng.html and the same as preearth it generates about as much traffic as the black plague and thats why he needs to post on more sane accessed forum sites.

Last edited by Orac; 09/22/12 02:37 AM.

I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
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Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle

Just out of Curiosity. Why do you use the tag Sagg Bad Boy?
You seem like more of a whiner than a Bad Boy...


And you seem like a naive hippy kumbaya singing tree hugger but hey who am I to judge :-)

I like a good whine & wine especially my naive friends and I am a bad boy because apparently I upset Paul all the time because I beat up on his god :-)

I am not upset about holocaust denial I am aware there are nutters who believe that stuff what iw as upset about was it being on a site I thought had higher standards. Ok I have changed my view on that.

Can I ask what you view would be if someone starts a post on the current anti-islamic movie that is causing alot of problems around the world?


Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle

Oh one more question out of curiosity. I really have no investment whether you actually leave or not. Is this one of those really long goodbyes that goes on for however long one decides they have to make their point?


If you bothered to read anything I wrote you would realise I said I would refuse to participate in any science discussions because I don't want to give life to the lunatics and nutcases on the forum.

This thread is about moderation and lack there off on SAGG and I am perfectly happy to participate in it.

How long that is well thats in the lap of the GOD, DEVIL, GOAT, DEITY or whatever else you believe in.

Last edited by Orac; 09/22/12 10:51 AM.

I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
Orac #45554 09/22/12 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted By: Orac
but hey who am I to judge :-)

My sentiments exactly. Obviously you want to be noticed otherwise why the big, "I'm leaving rant" while continuing to hang around and whine about everything and everyone here on this site that doesn't please you?
Originally Posted By: Orac

I like a good whine & wine especially my naive friends and I am a bad boy because apparently I upset Paul all the time because I beat up on his god :-)

Apparently? You applied the title to yourself, so I'm guessing you've made it your mission to upset your so called friends... or at least the moderators, since you're not here for the science.
Originally Posted By: Orac

I am not upset about holocaust denial

Sure you are, you already said you were.
Originally Posted By: Orac
There are very very few things that would ever offend me but as a member of Amnesty International "holocaust denial" or other genocides would be one of the very few.
followed by..
Originally Posted By: Orac
I am aware there are nutters who believe that stuff what iw as upset about was it being on a site I thought had higher standards.
(note that I left your spelling mistakes intact so that you know I haven't tampered with your own words)
Originally Posted By: Orac
Ok I have changed my view on that.

Your view on what the site standards should be or whether you should invest yourself in what others think?

I think you contradict yourself. You seem to just want to gain some kind of control and are having a hissy fit because you aren't getting what you want.
Originally Posted By: Orac

Can I ask what you view would be if someone starts a post on the current anti-islamic movie that is causing alot of problems around the world?

Sure.

Originally Posted By: Orac

Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle

Oh one more question out of curiosity. I really have no investment whether you actually leave or not. Is this one of those really long goodbyes that goes on for however long one decides they have to make their point?


If you bothered to read anything I wrote you would realise I said I would refuse to participate in any science discussions because I don't want to give life to the lunatics and nutcases on the forum.

OF course you did. And you said good bye to these people:
Quote:
I would like to say a goodbye to Bill S, Bill Gill, Redenwur, Rev K, Ellis, Paul and probably quite a few I have missed..
because they would never join you in any discussions other than a science discussion, as you restrict yourself (definitively speaking).

Originally Posted By: Orac

This thread is about moderation and lack there off on SAGG and I am perfectly happy to participate in it.

Oh good, then all those who said you will be missed can breathe easier while you hang around and pester the ones you call friends to maintain your Bad Boy image.

Since you're not here for the science....

Originally Posted By: Orac

How long that is well thats in the lap of the GOD, DEVIL, GOAT, DEITY or whatever else you believe in.
Doesn't matter what I believe. You're making it up as you go along, since it's not about science for you anymore.


A note to the Moderators.. perhaps we can change the title of this thread to Goodbye to my participation as a scientific participant, and hello to "My Opinion of SAGG and the Moderators" since Orac is just blowing smoke around any rash ideas of leaving Sagg. wink

BTW..I see my prediction came true regarding the deletion of my last response to your questions. so I'm gonna predict a possibility that this thread will be deleted along with the other thread because it just ain't science, and you might not be given special treatment to have a thread that is just about your opinion of the moderators and this website.
At the least it might get moved from the physics forum section to the NQS section.. But my money is on deletion.
If I lose the bet then at least you can continue to badger your friends as well as the moderators of this website.

Life is interesting... is it not?

I'm also thinking those that had a higher opinion of you have lowered the bar a tad.. as you now decide to take the emotional position and leave scientific approaches behind... since you're not here for the science. whistle


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




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Poor TT .. it's ok I still love you ... lets sing Kumbaya together and it will be alright.

Now you have had your little rant it feels good doesn't it now take a cup of camomile tea and get on with your life.

As you said it's not about science on here for me anymore the thread will die naturally if you stop posting unless I was going to have a long conversation with myself :-)


I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
Orac #45562 09/23/12 01:45 PM
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I just had a look at the "Who's Online".

I am here with 101 guests and 2 spiders. I find myself wondering what those guests think of the content of our threads, and how many of that 101 will join to further their interest in science.

Tesla2 has just joined with a topic that is distinctly outside standard thinking. In a few days it will be interesting to compare the number of posts in his thread to the number of personal rants in this one.

Let's not leave the science to the spiders.


There never was nothing.
Bill S. #45569 09/23/12 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted By: Orac
Poor TT .. it's ok I still love you ...
smile
Originally Posted By: Orac
lets sing Kumbaya together and it will be alright.

It's always all right. wink
Originally Posted By: Orac

Now you have had your little rant it feels good doesn't it now take a cup of camomile tea and get on with your life.

Life is ongoing, it never stops. So... take it all in, for none of it is more or less life. Right?
Originally Posted By: Orac

As you said it's not about science on here for me anymore the thread will die naturally if you stop posting unless I was going to have a long conversation with myself :-)
I'm sure it will, eventually. However I think everyone just wanted to make sure you weren't alone in these trying times where you have decided to focus on what is really important for you.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
I just had a look at the "Who's Online".
I am here with 101 guests and 2 spiders. I find myself wondering what those guests think of the content of our threads, and how many of that 101 will join to further their interest in science.

Tesla2 has just joined with a topic that is distinctly outside standard thinking. In a few days it will be interesting to compare the number of posts in his thread to the number of personal rants in this one.

Let's not leave the science to the spiders.


People always find what they want. Why fear the occasional stress and feelings that everyone has.
If you try to keep the natural parts of life from happening and get all sphinctered, then you forget about what you really enjoy in life and end up giving all sensibility to your stress and emotional baggage.
Like Orac dedicating his time to complaining about this forum instead of being here for science.

Psychologically speaking, if the pipes are clogged, nothing flows.
Because people are afraid of their own feelings, they try to keep others from having theirs, so they don't have to deal with their own.

Science is not sterile, but the ego will try to eliminate all things that it fears and the more it becomes encumbered with fear based stress, the less the imagination will function. When that happens you end up losing sight of reality and giving all your attention to what it is you don't like rather than what it is you really love in life.


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




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Words of wisdom, no doubt, but as a response to your quote from my post they are “but sounding brass and tinkling cymbals”.


There never was nothing.
Bill S. #45576 09/24/12 02:53 AM
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I see Paul=TutorTurtle sockpuppet can't let the thread die hence the bait ... I thought that might be the case you do like the last word :-)

You really need to not get more aggressive at god and religious stuff if you are going to play a different sock puppet.

Hint if you really were the tolerant type you would just have ignored my last post ... one always uses the right bait when fishing!

The thread was on post responses Bill S I have taken it off now because there is not much left to say or do in it. I am still very uncertain still what I will do with forum participation going forward and whether I can be bothered we will see there is still mostly just junk being posted as you can see and this thread has become one of those :-)

Last edited by Orac; 09/24/12 02:55 AM.

I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
Orac #45578 09/24/12 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted By: Orac

Hint if you really were the tolerant type you would just have ignored my last post ... one always uses the right bait when fishing!

Or being tolerant, I see no reason as absolute. Opportunities to expand truths are always a choice to continue with truth, rather than platitudes or assumptions.

Not at all in need of the last word..
Your turn.. wink
Originally Posted By: Orac
I am still very uncertain still what I will do with forum participation going forward and whether I can be bothered we will see there is still mostly just junk being posted as you can see and this thread has become one of those :-)
The thread started out that way, since it was initiated as an emotional breakdown due to the inability to control other people and their actions.


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




Bill S. #45579 09/24/12 03:13 AM
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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Words of wisdom, no doubt, but as a response to your quote from my post they are “but sounding brass and tinkling cymbals”.


Of course. When emotions are high, truth is irrelevant.


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




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So what is the idea behind the sock puppet did you think people wouldn't know?

Hint if you were all about brother lee love and free speech this would have died 20 posts ago.

So long as the thread rolls I will be here ;-)

Last edited by Orac; 09/24/12 05:52 AM.

I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
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