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#34979 - 06/15/10 08:39 AM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Go for it.

But if the program says there's motion further than the length of the pipe, what then? I don't want to decipher code to look for bugs.

If the program says there's no long term change in the pipe's velocity, will you still post the results? What will your next step be?

Top
.
#34981 - 06/15/10 04:09 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: Momos]
ImagingGeek Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/19/10
Posts: 410
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Momos
@ImagingGeek
You wrote some interesting stuff I didn't know, especially about the back-pressure and maximum exhaust speed, thanks!


I only wish I had explained it better in the beginning...

It is an interesting problem when it comes to rocket design. I remember waaaay back in the mid-1990's when I built my first rocket engines, they constantly preformed well below my expectations. I spent the better part of a year thinking the problem was in my design/fabrication. Turns out I had used the ideal gas formulas, and missed out on the choked flow issue.

When I used the correct math, my engine performance was dead-on predicted.

Later designed however did have some design/fabrication flaws - those ones go "whoosh - BOOM", instead of under preforming. Basically expensive confetti = you screwed up...

Bryan
_________________________
UAA...CAUGCUAUGAUGGAACGAACAAUUAUGGAA

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#34986 - 06/15/10 09:30 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136



Quote:
Go for it.

But if the program says there's motion further than the length of the pipe, what then?


well , I cant think of any reason it wouldnt go further than
the lenght of the pipe.

what then?

NASA perhaps.


Quote:
I don't want to decipher code to look for bugs.


I would use visual basic for something this simple.

however you might get lost in the code that writes the info
to a text file , flat for excell.

Quote:
If the program says there's no long term change in the pipe's velocity, will you still post the results?


sure , why not.


Quote:
What will your next step be?


try to contact someone within NASA I suppose.
what would you do if you were certain it would work?
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#34987 - 06/16/10 01:50 AM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: paul

try to contact someone within NASA I suppose.
what would you do if you were certain it would work?


I'd make sure nobody steals my idea. To do that I'd have to continue the internet discussion in such a way as to make sure nobody believes me. Perhaps by swearing at everyone who replies :P

Then I'd build it myself. I'd pour all my savings into it, I'd borrow money if I had to. I'd learn whatever I needed to design and build it, even if that meant quitting work and enrolling in a course.

Afterwards, I'd either be richer than god, or poorer than an american auto-worker.

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#35000 - 06/16/10 04:21 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
I'd make sure nobody steals my idea.


how long has magnetism using electricty been around?
surely Im not the first to think of this idea , sadly there
are probably thousands of others.

others who followed the supposedy correct path , keeping the
idea a secret to keep someone from stealing it.

and they most likely ended up with a gag order or even worse.

and just think of the trouble I've had trying to get you and bryan to see its possibilities.
and then think of the trouble I would have trying to get people at
NASA or some other institution to see its possibilities.

because they think the same as bryan does.
book thinking not common sence thinking.

if something seems to violate a law , then it will not work
because of the way they understand the laws or the way they
have been taught to understand the laws.

but I think this would work well in a submarine , do you see
the implications involved there.

you would need no control surfaces or propeller on the submarine
thus extreme silence accompanied by extreme speed.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#35003 - 06/16/10 09:45 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: paul
and they most likely ended up with a gag order or even worse.

No, you have no evidence for that occurring. The freedom of sharing information on the internet makes such suppression impossible these days, it's not like the middle ages anymore.


Here's a thought, it violates:
Netwon's 1st law
Newton's 2nd law
Newton's 3rd law
The law of conservation of momentum

That means if you use any of those laws in the calculation, and it results in the behaviour you've predicted, then the result is automatically wrong.

It may mean you've disproven those laws, by showing them to be internally inconsistent. In that case the disproof only needs to be theoretical. There's no need to even build it. Tho of course you won't be able to know if it works or not without building it.

Again, please stop talking about applications for it. Everybody can easily see many amazing applications, just as we can all see amazing applications for magic carpets. It's called counting your chickens.

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#35005 - 06/16/10 11:27 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: kallog]
ImagingGeek Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/19/10
Posts: 410
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: kallog

Here's a thought, it violates:
Netwon's 1st law
Newton's 2nd law
Newton's 3rd law
The law of conservation of momentum

Am I the only one who see's the irony here - paul's little "invention" fall foul of four of the most basic laws of physics. These laws have stood the tests of time, and been validated time and time again - take Noether's proof conservation of momentum.

But kellog and I are the ones who are "crazy" because we don't think his device won't work.

Someone needs to read up on the history of perpetual motion ...

Bryan
_________________________
UAA...CAUGCUAUGAUGGAACGAACAAUUAUGGAA

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#35006 - 06/16/10 11:56 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: ImagingGeek]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
I give up , you two guys have a nice time dissagreeing with every post that gets posted here until nobody post here anymore.

but I still think you two have a great misunderstanding
of newtons laws , and I dont think that between the both of you you could glue two sticks together

so long everyone , and have a nice life.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#35007 - 06/17/10 04:40 AM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
So you realised that writing a program won't prove it works, but you still believe it would. Are you going to go and build it in private? Or spend the rest of your life frustrated at other people without actually finding out the truth (whatever it may be) for yourself?

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#35010 - 06/17/10 01:25 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
So you realised that writing a program won't prove it works, but you still believe it would. Are you going to go and build it in private? Or spend the rest of your life frustrated at other people without actually finding out the truth (whatever it may be) for yourself?


No !! I realized that you two guys contridict yourselves to the point that you dont even know what you think.

first you say the pipe will move , then you say it wont.

now you say it will only move the lenght of the pipe.
which is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

theres nothing that will stop the pipe once it starts moving in
the concept that I have put up.

WHY WOULD IT STOP?

you cant give a reason , except that it would break a law.

then you say that it is breaking all three of newtons laws of motion , which is another one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

you've never shown that it would break any of these three laws.
or any other law.

the only reason you or bryan have ever given is that it would break newtons laws , when the fact is that you two guys cant even comprehend newtons laws , and thats a fact , given what you two guys have shown.

I give up because you two dont know what your talking about so
why should I keep trying to explain something so simple to a couple of people that cant comprehend it.

its like talking to a recorded message that never stops spewing out its recorded ignorance.

Originally Posted By: imagegeek
But kellog and I are the ones who are "crazy"


I didnt say that , but Im glad you did , like stupid is stupid does.

ie... I never said you two were "crazy" besides some of
the smartest people in the world were considered "crazy" , I certainly wouldnt accuse you two of being "crazy".








_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#35012 - 06/17/10 02:33 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: paul

first you say the pipe will move , then you say it wont.
now you say it will only move the lenght of the pipe.
which is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.


Please quote where I said something contradictory. I do have a habit of sometimes understating important points, but I am careful to be precise.




Quote:

WHY WOULD IT STOP?

you cant give a reason , except that it would break a law.


I wrote out the equations showing it would stop in a recent message. If you evaluate the final expression, you'll find it says momentum=0. Feel free to point out any mistake I made.



Quote:

why should I keep trying to explain something so simple to a couple of people that cant comprehend it.


You know somebody else who can comprehend it?


This is a forum for science, not politics. In normal life with real world people you can usually get away with just repeating things and insulting people until somebody agrees. But scientific types demand reasons and evidence.

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#35014 - 06/17/10 03:35 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: paul]
ImagingGeek Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/19/10
Posts: 410
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: paul
Quote:
So you realised that writing a program won't prove it works, but you still believe it would. Are you going to go and build it in private? Or spend the rest of your life frustrated at other people without actually finding out the truth (whatever it may be) for yourself?

No !! I realized that you two guys contridict yourselves to the point that you dont even know what you think.

Really? Point out one example where we contradict ourselves.

Preferably an example where its a true contradiction, not you mis-interpreting our claims, or lying about them.

Originally Posted By: paul

first you say the pipe will move , then you say it wont.

now you say it will only move the lenght of the pipe.
which is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

But it is the correct answer, paul, and it has been experimentally/functionally verified - the same principal is used by doo-dads on spacecraft (i.e. gyroscopes) to hold or change the orientation of the spacecraft without altering its net momentum.

Let's see if you can follow the bouncing ball:

1) Momentum cannot be changed by internal forces in closed systems.
2) The momentum of a closed system is measured from its center of mass.
3) Internal forces can shift mass around inside of a closed system.
4) The movement in #3 would change the momentum of the closed system, by moving its center of mass, therefore to not violate the conservation of momentum the "equal an opposite" reaction generated by the forces moving the mass creates an equal, but opposite movement of momentum (mass) in the opposite direction.

The net effect in your new system is simple - you move mass forward, and as a consequence the pipe moves backwards due to the equal, but opposite force induced by the movement of the mass forwards. The center of mass of the system is maintained, and thus the law of conservation of momentum is not violated.

Originally Posted By: paul
theres nothing that will stop the pipe once it starts moving in
the concept that I have put up.

laugh
Other than the laws of physics

Quote:
WHY WOULD IT STOP?

you cant give a reason , except that it would break a law.

Because the mass you've moved forward also has to stop. The force stopping the mass moving forward would also stop the movement of the mass moving backwards.

Basic laws of physics, paul - every reaction has an opposite and equal reaction. The ball you throw won't magically stop.

Bryan
_________________________
UAA...CAUGCUAUGAUGGAACGAACAAUUAUGGAA

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#35015 - 06/17/10 05:47 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
are you talking trash again , kallog like the below trash you posted.

Quote:
- The pipe starts with momentum
pp = 0
- An accelerated mass starts with momentum p1.
- After acceleration at force F for time t it ends up with momentum p1+F*t. The reaction has the opposite effect on the pipe,
pp = 0-F*t
- After turning around 180deg, its momentum in the free-floating stage is -(p1+F*t). This is a change in momentum of -2*(p1+F*t), so the reaction on pipe causes the opposite change in momentum. The pipe gains 2*(p1+F*t),
pp = 0-F*t+2(p1+F*t)
- But at the same time a free-floater is turning around at the other end, imparting momentum -2*p1 onto the pipe.
pp = 0-F*t+2(p1+F*t)-2*p1
Then that just-turned-around free-floater starts to accelerate, imparting -F*t to the pipe during it's travels.
pp = 0-F*t+2(p1+F*t)-2*p1-F*t

originally I thought you were only talking about the two
masses that are being turned around at the ends but from your
last post it seems that this must be where you atttempted
to show that the "pipe" would not move.

what a farce of physics...

explaining away 22 masses using only 2 masses.
but normal for your type of genius.

why didnt you add some numbers in the above genius?

you know like 100 kg accelerated at 5 m/s

for a distance of 500 ft then repeat the above

for the other 19 masses being accelerated.

these 20 forces add up to the forces applied to the pipe for movement.

then add up what little negative forces there are from the 2 masses being turned around.


in your poisoned mind you neglect that there are

TWENTY , 20 , MASSES being accelerated at any moment.

NOT JUST ONE --- NOT JUST ONE -- NOT JUST ONE.

but I suppose that is the only way you can show no pipe movement.

ISNT THAT REALLY IT , kallog.

the results are no matter how scrambled your brains are...

at any moment.

there are 20 forces being applied to the pipe that cause
the pipe to move.

and the pipe is not as stupid as you guys are so it dont know it needs to stop just to serve you two guys misinterpretation of newtons laws suddenly as soon as it has traveled the lenght of the pipe. LOL , sickening.

at any moment there are 20 forces that are moving the pipe
and the two forces at the ends would in no way cancel out the 20 forces that move the pipe.

suppose each mass being accelerated applies a force
of 25 kg to the pipe.

that means that each mass can only subtract 25 kg from the pipe.

there are 20 masses at any time supplying a force of 20 kg
so 20 * 25kg = 500kg

now when 1 reaches the end the most it can subtract is

25 kg.

result = 475 kg ---> pipe
25 kg <--- turnaround

so when 2 reach the end
result = 450 kg ---> pipe
50 kg <--- turnaround

see what wonders numbers can do.

and I didnt even use close numbers.

just simple grade school numbers that you two might understand.

when one of the masses moves through the 180 turnaround
do you think it alone will subtract more force than the 20 being accelerated towards the end?

just how dumb are you guys?

no way , the most that the one single mass could possibly subtract is the amount of force that would be required to stop it completely.

no tweedle dumb and tweedle dumber physics dont work that way.

so maybe you can tell us exactly how the two masses turning around will apply more force than the 20 masses being accelerated and keep the pipe from moving.

until you can SHOW SOMETHING OTHER THAN YOUR LIP SERVICE
your wrong and Im right.

kallogs bloopers

Quote:
- After turning around 180deg, its momentum in the free-floating stage is -(p1+F*t).


so according to your brain the mass that has been accelerating for the lenght of the pipe will suddenly
lose all momentum that it has gained...?

that way you have an exact number that just happens to
have be identical number only its a negatve number.
this way you can say +5 added to -5 = 0 movement.

how convenient and ridiculous to say the least.

this way you can say +5 added to -5 = 0 movement.
or as you put it
pp = 0-F*t+2(p1+F*t)-2*p1-F*t


I never said the ends were brakes their just turnarounds.

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#35016 - 06/17/10 06:22 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: ImagingGeek]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
Because the mass you've moved forward also has to stop.


only in your mind , even if it you have been shown that it doesnt stop , it only needs to stop in your mind in order for your mind to accept it.

I suppose that when you were a child you didnt use the
little curvy sections of track and your train stopped when it ran out of track , you poor thing , somebody should have put the train track together for you.

Quote:
Basic laws of physics, paul - every reaction has an opposite and equal reaction.


not really , not when its you that is describing action and reaction

according to you and kallog
a 50 kg force can stop a 450 kg force.

even if the two forces are constantly being applied towards each other.

450 kg ---->0 kg<----- 50 kg

they magically cancel each other out.

thats because you two guys are the smartest people on earth.

what I generally refer to as stupid smart people.




_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#35017 - 06/17/10 07:26 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: paul]
ImagingGeek Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/19/10
Posts: 410
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: paul
Quote:
Because the mass you've moved forward also has to stop.


only in your mind , even if it you have been shown that it doesnt stop , it only needs to stop in your mind in order for your mind to accept it.

I suppose that when you were a child you didnt use the
little curvy sections of track and your train stopped when it ran out of track , you poor thing , somebody should have put the train track together for you.

I didn't have a train set - I did have an electric car set though. And I apparently paid more attention to my childhood toy than you did to yours.

When a car rocketed around a corner the whole track slid (if you got the cars up fast enough). The reason for this movement is simple - the track produced an inwards force which caused the car to turn, but in turn experienced an opposing force in the opposite direction. If you got things up fast enough that outward force would overcome friction and the track would then slide in the opposite direction of the force on the car.

But, when the car got to the other end of the track and hit the next corner, the track slid back - because once again the track applied a force to the car and thus experienced an opposing force.

Its an imperfect example (due to friction), but does reflect your system somewhat - both the car and the track undergo movement relative to each other, due to the internal forces. But the net product in the end was zero movement - every time the car turned at one end of the oval it created returned the track to its origin.

The major difference in your system is that every acceleration, change of direction, etc, will result in movement of the whole system - due to the absence of friction in space. The net is a sum of zero change in momentum - just as with my childhood toy.

Originally Posted By: paul
Quote:
Basic laws of physics, paul - every reaction has an opposite and equal reaction.


not really , not when its you that is describing action and reaction

according to you and kallog
a 50 kg force can stop a 450 kg force.


Nope, that is not what we are saying. What we are saying is when you move either one of those you get equal forces in both directions. The net effect is zero change in momentum of the total system, since the movement of the mass in one direction is exactly countered by the opposing force which is exerted on the system in the opposing direction.

The problem you are having is quite simple - you're ignoring the "reaction" half of the equation. You forget that when you move one of those masses, you're both exerting the force which moves the mass (the action) as well as exerting a force on the internal environment of your closed system in the direction opposite (the reaction).

Originally Posted By: paul
even if the two forces are constantly being applied towards each other.

450 kg ---->0 kg<----- 50 kg

they magically cancel each other out.


Nope, you've still got it wrong:

(reaction)<--mass-->(action)

<--450kg--> (equal and opposite force/momentum)
<--50kg--> (another equal and opposite force/momentum)

Net force/momentum of <--450kg--> is zero
Net force/momentum of <--50kg--> is zero
Net of the two combined is zero

Like I said earlier, you're missing half the equasion.

Bryan
_________________________
UAA...CAUGCUAUGAUGGAACGAACAAUUAUGGAA

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#35018 - 06/17/10 08:05 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: ImagingGeek]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
Nope, you've still got it wrong:

(reaction)<--mass-->(action)

<--450kg--> (equal and opposite force/momentum)
<--50kg--> (another equal and opposite force/momentum)

Net force/momentum of <--450kg--> is zero
Net force/momentum of <--50kg--> is zero
Net of the two combined is zero

Like I said earlier, you're missing half the equasion.

Bryan


missing half an equasion is not as bad as missing half a brain , bryan.
but Im not missing half the equasion your missing half the brain , maybe all of the brain , bryam.

so if I push a mass in zero g with 450 kg force and you push the same mass in zero g from the opposite end with 50 kg force then the mass will not move?

according to your understanding of physics , that is.

I think I need to find another name for people such as
yourself.

such as stupid stupid people.







_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#35019 - 06/17/10 08:16 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: ImagingGeek]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:

Nope, that is not what we are saying. What we are saying is when you move either one of those you get equal forces in both directions.


just what are you saying bryan?
once again I ask...

1) do you think the pipe will move.

if you think the pipe will move , given that the pipe moves
due to a constant force.

2) do you think the pipe will suddenly stop.


I dont even know why I bother trying to get a straight answer from you two clowns.

neither of you would give an answer that would be truthfull.

if you cant answer the above 2 questions then I dont think there is any reason to reply to any further post that you make , no matter how stupid they are.

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#35021 - 06/17/10 08:32 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: paul]
ImagingGeek Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/19/10
Posts: 410
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: paul
missing half an equasion is not as bad as missing half a brain , bryan.
but Im not missing half the equasion your missing half the brain , maybe all of the brain , bryam.

so if I push a mass in zero g with 450 kg force and you push the same mass in zero g from the opposite end with 50 kg force then the mass will not move?


The insults are really quite ironic, since you're apparently unable to counter my statements without out-and-out lying about them. And I'd point out that repeating the same lie about my claims, which I've now corrected you for 3X, doesn't make that lie true - it just makes you a liar.

Its really simple, as I explained before. You push on the mass with force X. When you push on that mass, the system (i.e. your pipe) experiences a force of -X. Net effect: mass goes one way, the pipe goes the other, the movement of the center of mass (and thus the systems momentum) doesn't change.

So yes, the masses move (as I've said at least 3X now), but so does the pipe they are contained in - net effect, zero change in momentum of the system as a whole.

Same is true when the mass hits the end of the pipe or is otherwise braked. The mass will exert a force on the pipe/brake equal to the force which imparted its movement in the first place. Ergo, the mass stops due to the exertion of force, and that force is also transfered to the pipe. Since the force is exactly the same as what put the mass/pipe in motion to start with, the net effect is the motion of both the mass and the pipe stops.

There it is - so simple even a 2-year old can grasp it.

Now, how are you going to lie about my claims this time? Or perhaps you'll just repeat the same lie you've made the past few posts...

...strange, isn't it - that you can only make your "point" by lying about the claims of others...LOL

Bryan
_________________________
UAA...CAUGCUAUGAUGGAACGAACAAUUAUGGAA

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#35022 - 06/17/10 08:39 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: paul]
ImagingGeek Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/19/10
Posts: 410
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: paul
Quote:

Nope, that is not what we are saying. What we are saying is when you move either one of those you get equal forces in both directions.


just what are you saying bryan?
once again I ask...

1) do you think the pipe will move.

if you think the pipe will move , given that the pipe moves
due to a constant force.

2) do you think the pipe will suddenly stop.


Answer to 1 depends on what you mean by "move". The pipe will move relative to the mass moving inside of it. The center of mass of the whole system - i.e. pipe + mass - will not move, as observed by an outside observer. In other words, the individual parts will move, but the whole will not.

As for 2, the answer is yes. When the ball hits the end of the pipe, or is turned around, or is otherwise braked, it will exert a force equal to the force that started it moving in the first place. That force will stop the movement of the pipe.

On the other hand, if your pipe were open, so the ball could freely exit into space, than the pipe would continue in its movement unabated, and thus you would have achieved a net change in the momentum of the pipe. I'd point out that is the very essence of how a rocket works.

Originally Posted By: paul
I dont even know why I bother trying to get a straight answer from you two clowns.


Probably because deep down inside you realize we're right.

Bryan
_________________________
UAA...CAUGCUAUGAUGGAACGAACAAUUAUGGAA

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#35026 - 06/17/10 09:22 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: ImagingGeek]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
The center of mass of the whole system - i.e. pipe + mass - will not move, as observed by an outside observer.


so your saying that if Im standing outside of the pipe I would not notice that it moves , because it will not move.

correct?
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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