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#45069 - 08/29/12 03:15 AM Re: Flatness Problem: To call a spade a spade. [Re: Amaranth Rose II]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
yes , be nice orac.

or R2 will bannish you to the furthermost region of the void.

LOL

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3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#45070 - 08/29/12 03:20 AM Re: Flatness Problem: To call a spade a spade. [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
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Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
No she is quite correct I apologise to Socratus I got frustrated that he couldn't get the units thing which children get with money and time at an early age and I assumed he was being deliberately silly about it.
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#45083 - 08/29/12 02:27 PM Re: Flatness Problem: To call a spade a spade. [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
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Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
You seem hell bent on treating every one as an adversary which I do not. For me there are no sides in science there is only that which is known and how well it has been tested.

Growing up in a country as a ethnic and political minority that is brutally supressed teaches you a little about life and the pointless conflicts over beliefs and your own ego.

I am however not immune to frustration and anger.

Thus all I can do is show compassion and understanding which Rev told me is a hallmark of christianity if you are of that particular faith.


Edited by Orac (08/29/12 02:28 PM)
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I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#45103 - 08/29/12 10:20 PM Re: Flatness Problem: To call a spade a spade. [Re: socratus]
Bill S. Offline
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Registered: 08/20/10
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BTW: Can a void be said to have a "furthermost region"?
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There never was nothing.

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#45108 - 08/30/12 03:01 AM Re: Flatness Problem: To call a spade a spade. [Re: Bill S.]
Orac Offline
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Registered: 05/20/11
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Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
You keep dragging out the old arguments Bill S that one is actually the same as the +ve and -ve energy in the other thread.

It's a historic argument about whether the vacuum of space could ever be empty even if you removed all the matter.

The argument revolves around the fact the space or void has dimensions left, right, up down and so it moves to the problem can something that has dimensions be empty.

The argument breaks to the fact a literal nothing has no dimensions so how can I move in 3D in nothing.

The historic argument can be seen in fletcher's paradox

"If everything when it occupies an equal space is at rest, and if that which is in locomotion is always occupying such a space at any moment, the flying arrow is therefore motionless"

There has been interest of late in QM in the question can QM explain the rise of dimensionality I will leave you to read before we discuss further

http://phys.org/news/2011-03-physicists-dimensions-universe.html

http://www.lmu.edu/lmunews/mureika.htm

http://www.buffalo.edu/news/12493


Edited by Orac (08/30/12 03:34 AM)
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#45111 - 08/30/12 06:53 AM Re: Flatness Problem: To call a spade a spade. [Re: socratus]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Thx for the links, Orac. So, the idea is that the highest energy levels allow only 1 spatial dimension, whilst additional dimensions unfold as the energy level drops. In that case, as one of the referenced articles says, planar scattering might be detected at LHC.

Wow, that's something else. Truly amazing stuff. I hadn't heard of it, and it's over a year old already.

From the Physorg link (above):

So the physicists suggest that a future gravitational wave detector looking deep into space might find that primordial gravity waves cannot be produced beyond a certain frequency, and this frequency would represent the transition between dimensions. Looking backwards, it would appear that one of our spatial dimensions has “vanished.”

...The scientists added that it should be possible, though perhaps more difficult, to test for the existence of (1 + 1)-dimensional spacetime. “It will be challenging with the current experiments,” Stojkovic told PhysOrg.com. “But it is within the reach of both the LHC and cosmic ray experiments if the two-dimensional to one-dimensional crossover scale is 10 TeV.”

...the cosmological constant is fine-tuned to fit observations and does not match theoretical calculations. A solution may lie in the existence of energy that is currently hiding between two folds of our (3 + 1)-dimensional spacetime, which will open up into (4 + 1)-dimensional spacetime in the future when the universe’s decreasing energy level reaches another transition point.






Edited by redewenur (08/30/12 06:57 AM)
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"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#45114 - 08/30/12 03:15 PM Re: Flatness Problem: To call a spade a spade. [Re: redewenur]
Orac Offline
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Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
The alternative is that the universe was born with 3+1 dimensions but the uneasy question why 3+1?

I had the pleasure to hear Dejan speak and it was that historic paradox that got him to think about space and dimensionality and I was amazed that aristotle insight could be as valid today as it was back then ... scary hey.

The historic arrow paradox where he was trying to explain how the air was not actually empty and trying to not be executed for offending the gods is pretty amazing.

At the time for Aristole open air spaces were considered nothing and the god of the wind made its presence felt but by and large air was perceived as empty.

Aristotle worked out that if you keep reducing the frame of reference in tighter and tighter on the arrow eventually you reach a point where you can not tell the arrow is moving. That state must therefore be nothing or as he declares "the flying arrow is therefore motionless". So by deductive reasoning if you can move by definition there is most definitely something and therefore the arrow is moving thru something you can not see.

I am told like alot of science at the time it was bound in these almost philosophical wordings so only fellow scientists would understand apparently "hey I can prove that there is something in this space I will call air and your gods aren't real" would get you killed :-)

What is also so cool is the idea after all these years should pop up in space and should very soon be testable by the LHC probably after the restart at higher energies.


Edited by Orac (08/30/12 03:18 PM)
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I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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