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Ellis, you have some points, but keep in mind that while we changed the way our new government was structured it came pretty close to mirroring the British governmental structure. Britain had a hereditary King (or Queen), the US had an elected President. Britain had a hereditary House of Lords, the US had an appointed (by the state governments) Senate. Britain had an elected House of Commons, the US had an elected house of representatives. Basically we had a government that was much like the government we had before the Revolution. Most of our laws were based on English Common Law, we just wrote them down. We basically followed the British pattern in our government with the difference that we elected our top leaders. Britain was going that way in any case. The biggest difference was that we no longer had an imperial government trying to tell us what to do.

We also of course had the example of the rule of law given us by Britain to help us chart our way. Many of the revolutions that followed ours fell apart because the people didn't have a good background in the rule of law. That is one of the great gifts that we got from Britain's rule of the American Colonies.

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Bill--- An elected senate is in no way comparable to an hereditary peerage. Neither is an hereditary monarch the same as a President. Peers are peers for life, and their sons (or closest male relative) will inherit that position with all its advantages for all of their life until death. For ever. Whilst there are some recent changes to the House of Lords it is still a house of inherited power. (Whist there are a only a very few inherited peerages that can be held by a woman, the monarch may be female (of course).)

Any one can (in theory) be a senator or a President (although there are birth issues for President). Then after (is it two terms?) the President is sacked! Definitely NOT the same as monarchy.

The American republic in victory modified the Westminster parliamentary system for their own society, but, as in Australia, the chosen model was in fact a federation of states-- and the states retained power and governors etc, This is not true of Britain, though in he last few years the devolution of Wales and Scotland, and earlier the break with southern Ireland has changed the political environment, Britain is still not a federation of states. It is a kingdom, until recently a United Kingdom. Now it is Great Britain!

Here in Australia we have the monarch of Britain as our head of state -her title is Queen of Australia. Her representative is the Governor General-- a largely ceremonial position. She is also represented in the states by a Governor. These are not elected positions but appointments by parliament --- but then we haven't had our Revolution yet! The Rev would understand as it is similar to Canada.

The victorious American colonialists drew up a constitution which is the foundation of the government today. Britain had no written constitution, they just muddled along without it, which was probably why the new government in America felt it was necessary to codify their ideals. Whilst they adopted many of the traditional rules of government they also adapted many of them and introduced new ones.They took as the basis of their ideology that representation in government was the right of every man (with some qualifications to start with, and if you were female --- forget it). That was an historic recognition of the concept of equality, and it was used in the Constitution.

They did a really good job, and it dos not give them enough credit to say they merely slid into place without altering things. America was changed completely by their fight, and probably for the better!

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Ellis, One of the things about all of that is that the American colonies were to a large extent self governing before the revolution. We were nominally ruled by the Crown and Parliament, but we weren't very interesting. Nobody was making a lot of money off of us and we were generally let go with only general guidance from Britain. That in general was what kicked off the war. Britain started trying to tighten up their rule and get us to work the way they thought we should. A lot of that was so that they could get more money out of us. So we went to war to keep the rights we had received, more from neglect than anything else. And in fact the first government we tried under the Articles of Confederation was really based on that. Each colony had its own way of doing things and they wanted to keep on doing them that way. So we were really trying to not change the way things were done, at least for us. To many people the King was just a foreigner who was nominally in charge.

And at first the Senate wasn't elected. The Senators were selected by the states in any way they wanted. For a long time the Senate was known as a rich man's club. The main way to get in was to be rich and know the governor of the state.

And up until Roosevelt the 2 term limit for the president was a precedent, not a law. George Washington set that precedent because he didn't want to be a king. When Roosevelt was elected for a 4th term it threw a scare into a lot of people that we might wind up with a hereditary monarch and they ran with the term limit amendment.

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Bill--Like I said--- you sack your president after 2 terms. And you select your own senators, now by popular voting. And you have a federation of states which have their own laws decided by their own legislative chambers. This is a system of government that has never had a place in British parliamentary history. (Perhaps until recently with, as I mentioned before, the devolution of Wales and Scotland--- but that still seems to me to be a work in progress.)

One of the main advantages of the actual Westminster system of democracy that was in place in the C18th is that of a recognised opposition. It is the alternative government, and as such has a legal (even moral) standing which is very difficult for other governmental systems to understand. It is possible to have elections where multiple candidates stand for office and voters are able choose between them. They are however all from the same party and the idea that a complete change of government can take place peacefully, and with the power from this change belonging to the electorate, is the main difference between true democracy and the somewhat flawed affairs the lead to the sort of conclusion that we see in Syria and the M/E. Also it has to be recognised that sometimes voters do not elect the best candidates! This can usually work out at the next election where the power changes.

I am well aware of the way that a country can govern itself in absolutely every way possible and yet still have a foreigner as head of state as since Australia, in a referendum where everyone voted, decided not to break with the status quo and keep Her Maj, I live in one!

Something you may find interesting to do is to 'compare and contrast' the American and French revolutions. It was indeed 'the best of times and the worst of times'* and revolution was definitely in the air. And a really fascinating player was Ben Franklin. He is a really interesting character.

* Dickens 'A Tale of Two Cities'.



This is SO not even NQS I am surprised it is still here!

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The Declaration of Independence: A Transcription

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.





this is sort of what the atmosphere in the U.S. is like
and has been this way for the last decade.

brought on by fear tactics , sword rattling , and rumors.

and facts.

personally I think that our military would turn if they
were ever faced with choosing who their loyalty belongs to.

I think we are really dumb , but were not stupid.

and we did break from brittish rule because of the
sudden changes that the brittish imposed on us.

you guys just havent done it yet , you may never do it.

there may be no reason to break from brittish rule.




Last edited by paul; 08/04/12 03:24 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Ellis
This is SO not even NQS I am surprised it is still here!


I agree that this does not even come close to science, not even NQS. Sometimes these threads do kind of drift.

Bill


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well , it may not be science but it gets attention.

you may have made another SAGG 4.6 million view blockbuster thread , Bill.

this thread isnt a month old yet and it already has 9 pages
and 2862 views.

look at the thread

( Philosophy of Religion -- all Religions )

its not science either but it has 199 pages and 4.6 million views!!!
and 1985 replies.



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Quote:

its not science either but it has 199 pages and 4.6 million views!!!
and 1985 replies.

That means it gets one reply for every 2,317 views. However there are only a handful of regulars who play on that thread. The reverend makes up for 60% of the posts and most of them are repetitive advertizements for anyone who might want to read his biography.


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




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right , thats what Im saying this thread is more popular
because it has 87 replies for only 2886 views.

vs the 1 reply for 2317 views !!!

a blockbuster is born.


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Well, I think partly the interest may be that we aren't just rehashing a lot of stuff that has already been discussed to death. At the same time it has most recently been a discussion between myself and Ellis about how revolutionary the American Revolutionary War was. And since what we are disagreeing about is more a point of view than of fact I think we have said about all there is to say. So I am about ready to let the whole thing die unless something different comes up.

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I agree with Bill-- and I wonder why more of those 2886 people who visited did not post their points of view. I think we two have exhausted our arguments and further discussion would be repetitive and boring. However I must say I enjoyed the discussion very much!

So now we need a new slant on just how dumb we are!!

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I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




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I agree with TT

we are being numbed into submission , this is evident in
the programming we have to endure , I am fortunate enough
to not have television any longer so I am not exposed to
the numbing and degradation imposed on tv viewers today.

here is a new slant on how dumb we have proven ourselves to be.

the below could be the future of the American highway infrastructure.
due to decreases in tax dollars , because of free trade.




in fact it already is pretty bad.
when President Obama stated that all buisnesses in america
built their buisness with government assistance he was 100%
correct , because all buisnesses require an transportation system in order to function.
along with a millitary to safeguard the country their buisness
does transactions in.
etc...etc...etc...







see how much you can save.

save money , live better.

dont worry about anything else , just save money and live better.

wallmart continues to build stores all over the world so that
you and your children will have a place to work.

so dont worry , just save money and live better.

no need for worrying about sending your children to college
you dont even need a high school education to work at wallmart.

you dont even have to be 18 years old...

just save money and live it up...

worried about your childrens health coverage , not to worry , walmart has that covered , if you work at walmart they will ensure that your income is low enough so that you qualify for
government health assistance.

worries about having a place to live ?

once again if you work at walmart you can get government housing assistance because your income is low.

just think about it , a job , health insurance and a place to live all just because you work at walmart.

where else can you find a bargain like that?

and you dont even have to work a full week.
you only have to work about 28 hours a week , WOW.


so just save money and live better and dont you worry about a thing the government will pick up the tab.


after all its the governments fault for introducing the
idiotic free trade that has caused all of our major problems
concerning our economy and as long as they can keep the idiots in office they will continue the free trade.

so just save money and live better.




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It's feel good TV -and reporting.

Now I feel vastly more clever, successful and generally superior to Honey Boo Boo etc. Good for me!!! I love ME!!! I am very important!!!! And thus I am cleverer (and all that) than The Happy Honey Boo Boo tribe and the scum of the earth who work at Walmart in a service industry and so have low low wages. Why should they not be as worried as I am about health and unemployment--- When I am SO MUCH BETTER than them?

I think I'll watch Honey Boo Boo again--- she makes me feel SO G-O-O-D about how superior I really am, (though I am miffed they all seem to be quite happy muddling along in their disorganised way, though the kid will end up FAT I'm sure).

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its not that walmart does not need to have a person filing a job position 24 hours a day , its that walmart fills those job positions using more people.

this way those people can have more for less work.

its the way the system is set up and they are clever enough to
take advantage of it.

and they can avoid the cost of health insurance which is a large
expense per employee.

its quite clear that walmart would be forced to work their employees 40 hours a week if the various low income programs
were not in place because the employees could not afford housing or medical coverage using the wages that walmart pays a employee working 28 hours a week.

if it were not for the low income programs then walmart could not function in the united states.

unless they built housing for their employees and provided a health clinic / hospital and salaried doctors and nurses for their employees.

and Ellis , honey boo boo and her family are people who have been given an opportunity to exploit the people who think they
are better than they are.

and their bank accounts will reflect that.

I know you were being sarcastic , but reading what you wrote was a little spooky.

but there are people who enjoy watching the less fortunate
because it makes them feel good.

I suppose the waltons will all be gathered in the theater
room in the walton bunker mansion with their servants serving up popcorn and milk duds while they watch the less fortunate
honey boo boo and her family.

some people just have a knack for being happy and content
with themselves and their surroundings no matter what their
financial situation is and their happiness is not dependent on others misfortunes.

and they are not faking happiness !




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I just had a great idea while watching the above video.

some clever businessman could start up a local buisness
and run a sale on a few items.

say a gaming console that normaly sells for $300.00
at walmart.

and advertise to sell the gamming console for $150.00

they could run the sale at 3am in the morning and then
their friends could go to walmart with the advertisement from his store.

his friends buy all the $300.00 consoles from walmart for $150.00

his friends could then sell him the consoles for $200.00 each.

he can then sell the console for $250.00

he has made $50.00 for each console.
his friends have made $50.00 for each console.

walmart has learned quite a few $150.00 lessons
about american ingenuity and free trade.

and before long walmart will reconsider
their tactics concerning squeezing local
businesses out of the picture with their price guarantee.

Im almost sure that the walmart price guarantee is utilized
to collect data on local businesses buying power and to
assemble a logistical method of decreasing local competitors.

100% legal.

its legal to start up a business
its legal to advertise your businesses products at any price.
its legal to buy products from any supplier or person.
its legal to sell products that you have purchased from walmart.

your only concern would be that walmart sends people
to your business to buy your products at 3 am.

so your recourse would be that you only have 1 of
those products and you dont offer rain checks for
items not in stock.

meanwhile , his friends are at walmart treating themselves
to a little free trade.

they may only have 50 of those products and they will give
you a rain check on what they dont have.

walmart could really become a nice store to have in a local business environment if local businessmen develop walmart style business tactics.











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Paul----- I WAS being ironic (possibly) and satirical (definitely). And cynical. And possibly a touch arrogant.

Who am I to judge Honey Boo Boo etc? It looks like a train wreck ending eventually, the child needs professional help in my opinion, as does her family --- but I hope they make millions from people who feel that if they can get on TV maybe there's hope for us all.

Or possibly not!

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Originally Posted By: Ellis

Who am I to judge Honey Boo Boo etc?

The same person who made a judgment call regarding me, probably..
Originally Posted By: Ellis
It looks like a train wreck ending eventually, the child needs professional help in my opinion, as does her family ---

There ya go.. That would be a judgment.
Originally Posted By: Ellis
but I hope they make millions from people who feel that if they can get on TV maybe there's hope for us all.

Or possibly not!

That they would put it on Television as something of interest, suggests that there is a mindset that determines the level of hypnosis television viewers have submitted to.
If they make millions, she could breed and have lots of children. Then again even if she is on welfare she could breed and have lots of children, just like herself.
Personally, not my idea of a good thing. sick


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Quote:
Paul----- I WAS being ironic (possibly) and satirical (definitely). And cynical. And possibly a touch arrogant.


well at least you were not being sarcastic.
I will agree with myself of course, being the only one who is correct in this matter.

I hope this child and her family the best...

I havent seen the show , I dont have tv.
I dont want tv.

I must admit that I do miss cnn and the weather channel so
get in the boat or you will miss ships movement.

I have seen both of your so called live broadcast and both
are not worth watching.






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