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#43753 - 05/22/12 12:25 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rev Pneumatology King
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
...This is supposed to be a science based forum.
Good idea, Bill! Keeping in mind that this is the philosophy and not-quite-science (NQS) section, let's do it. Bill S, any suggestions you, or anyone, have as to HOW to accomplish this, will be welcomed.

My suggestion? In the spirit of agape, may I suggest that theology, pneumatology psychology, sociology, etc. ... fill in the blanks ... are, IMO, all worthy of attention.

First question.. Rev. Says "let's DO IT"
Let's do what? Make this a science based forum, or make all that's in the forum science based? Or fill in all the Rev. Sees as blanks with Pneumatology?
Could Bill possibly be a bit clearer in what he is referring to before Rev. Pneumatology defines what is being implied?
Some thoughts about science and the Rev's Sermon on the mount..
1) this is a not quite science thread. Might have to do away with it. Since lots o' folks seem to look but not participate, it may not be such a loss.
2)Is psychology a science? I've read where the scientific community doesn't recognize psychiatry as a science, is there any similarity in the way science perceives psychology?
3)You're gonna have trouble with Theology as a science as long as God or G~O~D or G%O%D..., or any other personal variations upon spiritual and physical counterparts remains unidentifiable within the measure of scientific instruments, and suspect to the definitions of religions or a product of delusion or psychosis.
4)Pneuma and Pneumatology. What is the science of pneuma as it fits into Pneumatology when Pneumatology is defined by a blend of characteristics called mind, body, and spirit?
Obviously science is still working on unraveling the mind and the body.
Is there scientific reference to the validity of the soul or spirit, or any scientific exploration or validation currently in progress?


Edited by Tutor Turtle (05/22/12 02:48 AM)
Edit Reason: had to "DO IT"
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#43788 - 05/24/12 10:53 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
...This is supposed to be a science based forum.
Good idea, Bill! Keeping in mind that this is the philosophy and not-quite-science (NQS) section, let's do it--be science-based, but flexible.
In this recent posting I mentioned what some call the soft sciences: theology, pneumatology psychology, sociology, etc.... It seems to me that topics like these are worthy of our attention. Perhaps I should start a thread so we can discuss "death" frankly but with sensitivity. Anyone object?

Bill, in addition, there is another category of science: There are sciences that are UNusual like, for example, thanatology. However, it is defined as the scientific study of death, its cause and the many important phenomena related to the topic.

I presume that it is the phenomena related to thanatology, or at least some of such phenomena, that qualify as a soft--not-quite-science--science.

BTW, has anyone ever come up with a list of how many sciences there really are?
BTW 2. Now that I am an octogenarian I am very interested smile in having all the knowledge I can get about the "science" of thanatology.

FROM WORLD BOOK DICTIONARY
thanatism--the belief that at death the human soul ceases to exist.
thanatophobia--an abnormal fear of death.
thanatopsis--a contemplation of death; meditative viewing--Me? I like having a META-tative viewing--of the end of life.
Thanatos (Greek mythology). From Thanatos we get "euthanasia"(an easy and painless death) Thanatos was death personified as a god. The Romans called him Mors--from which we get mortality.

Watch for the new thread, OK?

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#43789 - 05/24/12 11:14 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Bill S. Offline
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Quote:
Watch for the new thread, OK?


Koko, (in The Mikado) argued that no one should be able to “cut off another’s head until he’d cut his own off”.

Perhaps we should insist that no one start a thread about death until he (she) had experienced his (her) own. What do you think?
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#43790 - 05/24/12 11:59 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Ellis Offline
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I'm dying to see it---- TT That's a metaphor!


Edited by Ellis (05/25/12 12:00 AM)

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#43793 - 05/25/12 03:34 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Bill S.]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Quote:
Watch for the new thread, OK?
Koko, (in The Mikado) argued that no one should be able to “cut off another’s head until he’d cut his own off”.

Perhaps we should insist that no one start a thread about death until he (she) had experienced his (her) own. What do you think?
"Perhaps we should insist..." With tonge-in-cheek I ask: Who are the we?

Over the years I have enjoyed openly conversing with and asking question of reincarnationists--that is, those who live their lives based on a strong belief in the karmic principle; that they have lived lives before this one; that they will live again and that we all reap what we sow. I certainly respect the beliefs of Buddhists, Hindus and others who take thanatology seriously.

As a one who has had the privilege of ministering to many in their last days in this life, I have experienced that it is not all gloom and doom. Many times pneumatherapy has helped people make the great transition, as I like to think of it, pain free and peacefully.

WHERE VALUABLE PROGRAMS ARE OFFERED
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanatology
http://db2.centennialcollege.ca/ce/certdetail.php?CertificateCode=7982
http://www.thanatology.org/home.html
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#43797 - 05/25/12 11:38 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Revlgking]
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Thanatology seems to be the observation of death from the perspective of the living.

Not much reference to what happens within the conscious awareness of the dying, or what one experiences while dead.

An interesting slant would be the perspective of the dead.

Science seems to blow off NDE's by attributing them to slowed brain activity after the heart and lungs stop and prior to rescucitation.

Dr. George Rodonai however tells an interesting story of his own murder by the KGB, and subsequent autopsy which took place three days after being pronounced dead.
With no brain activity, he was flash frozen before his three day storage in the morgue.
During the autopsy he regained consciousness.
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#43805 - 05/26/12 01:15 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Revlgking]
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking

Over the years I have enjoyed openly conversing with and asking question of reincarnationists--that is, those who live their lives based on a strong belief in the karmic principle; that they have lived lives before this one; that they will live again and that we all reap what we sow. I certainly respect the beliefs of Buddhists, Hindus and others who take thanatology seriously.

Thought I'd add a comment regarding the study of Buddhism and Hinduism as I've experienced them, (Buddhists and Hindus) in the conversation of spiritual sciences, in a descriptive comparison to the summary you've given as a definition of karma.

The notion of Karma varies within religious belief, same as the superstitions and conflicting ideas regarding the idea of God.
It would be safe to say, that in general any reference to the idea of thanatology is going to be suspect to a wide range of perspectives.

From what children believe according to what they've been told, and faithfully carried into the adult belief system. To the study of ancient texts and the comparisons made to modern physics, and the practical application of meditative methods used to replicate experiences similar to the dream state, revelations in altered states of consciousness, and near death experiences. Karma is going to be subject to belief.

Religion sees it (karma) as the idea of consequence in regard to action. You reap what you sow kinda thing. Cause and effect based on a judgmental God or universal law.

Spiritual science sees it similar to the effects of particles under observation by quantum physicists. When the physicist wants to observe a particle and make a measurement it behaves in accord with the impulse of the thought to be measured.

Karma is seen then by the spiritual scientist as the effect of thought on matter. Time and space according to physics not being linear, past present and future exist now, or all at the same observable point of reference within a unified field. This means that just as easily as the future can be seen in the making so can the present and past be created as one wishes to experience it now.

If one believes, or is hypnotized into thinking the world around them has a structure separate from the notions of the observer, then the believer carries the world as they make it along with them into experience unconsciously.

Once one knows and recognizes themself as consciousness and the observer, they stop being the victim to circumstance, replacing one hypnotic suggestion after another or placing one thought on top of another in conflict with each other as a course correction to the thoughts that were unconsciously thrown into the unified field.

What a superstitious Buddhist or Hindu believes, given all RESPECT, could be tantamount to the observable Respect you say you give to religionists Reverend. The Respect you have shown towards Maharishi Mahesh Yogi based on the testimony of second hand information by the person you acknowledged as expert, after spending an hour or so making judgements about the Maharishi listening to one of his discourses.
In a conversation here, you gave your authoritative opinion to your expert as reinforcement to the idea, that MMY sold snake oil.

Being that the spiritual science he studied and practiced has the same roots as Buddhism an Hinduism (inclusive of karma) I think you may be trying to bring these religions in as a matter of convenience to use karma, thanatology, and spirituality to sell your invention of hypnotism retitled (by you) as Pneumatherapy.

Any good sales pitch is gonna need as many references as possible to ideas that are popular or in vogue with those you make your pitch, even tho you really don't agree with those you make the pitch to.

Sometimes the methods of the righteous can be observed as historically consistent. From the Sadducees and Pharisees of old who sold themselves as men of God and crucified Jesus, to the current day priests and ministers who talk the alter boys into private chambers, a salesman will say what he will pretending to honor all men and their beliefs. Until the man seems to pose a conflict in the personal beliefs and opinions of the salesman and his sale.
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#43808 - 05/26/12 06:17 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Ellis Offline
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"Thanatology seems to be the observation of death from the perspective of the living."

Look I don't wish to be rude, but doesn't that statement belong in the Awards of the Bleeding Obvious?

The whole problem with the doctrine that promises life after death is that there has only been one case of life after death with some degree of plausibility in the history of human knowledge, and, if you believe that one example is true and proves something, you believe the person who did it is a god, or perhaps even *the* god. Which is really cheating isn't it?

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#43810 - 05/26/12 09:54 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Ellis]
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Originally Posted By: Ellis Master of the Obvious
"Thanatology seems to be the observation of death from the perspective of the living."

Look I don't wish to be rude, but doesn't that statement belong in the Awards of the Bleeding Obvious?
Ah so... You could be a master of the obvious. However, from what level of possibility in human understanding and awareness?
Originally Posted By: Ellis the Unindoctrinated

The whole problem with the doctrine that promises life after death is that there has only been one case of life after death with some degree of plausibility in the history of human knowledge, and, if you believe that one example is true and proves something, you believe the person who did it is a god, or perhaps even *the* god. Which is really cheating isn't it?

Actually the history of Spiritual Science is full of testimony to the reality that life and death of the physical body is a projection of Consciousness.
From the Hermetic texts which inspired Egyptian sciences and religion, The teachings of the Buddha, Hebraic writings which preceded and spoke of the appearances of Jesus as a follow up to Melchezidek 2000 years prior, and the Teachings of Advaita Vedanta. There are testimonies to life prior to birth, during earthly life, and after physical death, that has been and always will be beyond the limited senses of the human who is hypnotized by the idea of physical time and space and living in the house of the mortal ego.

Plato's allegory of "The Cave" was his description and testimony to his understanding of the science, and the study which could reveal the science in the personal experience.

Psalm 82:6 "I have said, 'Ye are Gods'; Children of the most high."

It ain't cheating if it's in you and you use it.
It's a sin if you go about thinking you are living, only to reach the goal of death, doing it over again and again till you awaken to the reality that the world just ain't flat.
To go to the edge is not to end in oblivion unless you subscribe to the beliefs of the living who have no experience of death beyond the mechanical aspects of limited biological observation.

http://www.bigthink.com/ideas/what-is-real-scientific-understanding?page=all
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#43817 - 05/26/12 06:21 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Bill S. Offline
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Switching briefly from death to life: weaning started today; always a messy business, but Bomber approved; cleaning their faces was a tasty job.

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#43819 - 05/26/12 07:56 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Bill S.]
Blobby2 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Switching briefly from death to life: weaning started today; always a messy business, but Bomber approved; cleaning their faces was a tasty job.

[quote]

Well i quess you are a breeder of multi ethnic mutts?
multi religous as well?since you show em in a religous site mad

Thanks Blobby2

[quote]

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#43821 - 05/26/12 09:42 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ellis
... The whole problem with the doctrine that promises life after death is that there has only been one case of life after death with some degree of plausibility in the history of human knowledge...
Ellis, I hope I have made it clear by now that, unless I have factual knowledge, I always take a total non-doctrinaire and a wait-and-see approach to all the issues you raise.
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#43823 - 05/26/12 11:25 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Ellis Offline
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Bill S _ What a sweet picture. It looks like little Bomber is getting better, she's really fluffy again! Just one thing-- the puppies look like pugs! (Not that there's anything wrong with that!) Very adorable indeed. The one in front has Wil's look of resignation at face wash time.


Having looked at the photo again - I have to add that Bomber still looks a bit stunned--- but happy at the tasty turn of events.


Edited by Ellis (05/26/12 11:31 PM)

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#43824 - 05/26/12 11:28 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Ellis Offline
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Rev- I too have no wish to re-visit this topic. I still don't believe in existence after death. I am content to exist as part of everything that has ever existed, and die when it is my time. Surely death is part of life.

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#43825 - 05/26/12 11:33 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Revlgking]
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Originally Posted By: Rev. Wait and see if it's the fact King
I hope I have made it clear by now that, unless I have factual knowledge, I always take a total non-doctrinaire and a wait-and-see approach to all the issues ...
Like the references you made to Hinduism and Buddhism after talking to some Hindus and Buddhists? Factual as in making references to the afterlife or karma based on the coversations with some Hindus and Buddhists as a means to reference thanatology as a science, to substantiate your invention of Pneumatology, or stage hypnosis with the G~O~D application?
Hypnosis with a spiritual flavor as the facts of spirit apply?
Spirit in need of therapy factual?

Originally Posted By: Surely Ellis
Surely death is part of life.

Born to die. sick
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#43829 - 05/27/12 01:23 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Bill S. Offline
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Originally Posted By: Blobby2
multi religous as well?since you show em in a religous site


NQS=religious? I'd be interested to know where you get your definition.

On the subject of definitions: how do you define "multi ethnic mutts"?

Had you been following the thread, you might have realised that I am not the breader.

You may have to do better with your precision if you are planning to take on Pre in one or more of his threads. smile
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#43830 - 05/27/12 01:31 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Bill S. Offline
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Quote:
What a sweet picture.


Thanks Ellis. Bomber was going to send you one of those "mad" faces for referring to him as "she", but he said he couldn't find one. Actually, I think it was because you had said nice things about him in the past, so he thought you didn't really deserve one.
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#43833 - 05/27/12 10:39 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Ellis Offline
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Bill S- Now I am confused. Please could you post a family tree of those puppies!
I am glad though that no girl dog would be labelled Bomber, though it's a great name for a fluffy boy dog--- he has to be taken seriously!

No wonder he has been traumatised by the appearance of PUPPIES!

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#43844 - 05/28/12 04:12 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Revlgking Offline
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DOGS, WOLVES & US (The pneuma component)

Monday, May 28, 2012
This AM, on the Current, CBC.ca, I heard an interesting interview with neuroscientist, John Coates. It was about his recent book with the interesting title:
THE HOUR BETWEEN DOG AND WOLF

“The Hour Between Dog and Wolf--Risk Taking, Gut Feelings, and the Biology of Boom and Bust.”

Penguin Press USA; Fourth Estate UK; Random House Canada

The book is based on a research paper that J Coates and J Herbert did in 2008, “Endogenous steroids and financial risk taking on a London trading floor.”
=====

Research in Neuroscience suggests that the physical reactions on trading floors are similar to warzones or elite sports--[or fights between animals for dominance--] where the pressure to perform and survive is great. And that in such situations, the Visceral trumps the Rational.

The man behind that view spent years on the trading floor for the big players on Wall St. before investing in a degree in neuroscience. We speak with John Coates, author of The Hour Between Dog and Wolf to explain his ideas.

http://www.neuroscience.cam.ac.uk/directory/profile.php?jmc98
=========
http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/episode/2012/05/28/the-hour-between-dog-and-wolf-john-coates/
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#43845 - 05/28/12 05:17 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
DOGS, WOLVES & US (The pneuma component)

How do you relate this to the soul or spirit?
What makes this stand out as a component of Pneuma (Soul or Spirit) from any other observance in life?
What is the soul?
What is the spirit?
How does the soul or spirit become a target for therapy?
Psychiatry which is not categorized as science by scientists, cannot make any claims to be able to cure anyone under psychiatric observance.
How does one observe the soul, and diagnose the soul?
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