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Even more interesting, will be if sensibility is a valid trait amongst the human species. Will evolution reveal to the current living society, what it has learned about the dead and their ambitions driven by ideals rather than the apparent facts about reality?
Comprehension of reality being a factor.

Will the ability of the human species to make decisions continue to be inclusive of the destruction of life to find what makes it work?
Will the species be able to determine the meaning of life, by observing the death of the species, thru self destructive and self defeating policy?
Will the ineffective authorities guiding the scientific course of action and who determine what is financially useful, rather than useful in preserving the health and life of human life be destroyed by a greater mind as evolution of the species progresses?

Our reasoning says probably, or even possibly. Our history tells us that our intelligence may not be enough to prevent our chaotic choices from anhialating the earth and it's species, since there are those who prefer to go to war and destroy each other as a solution or cure to our differences, which are often diagnosed as the ills of human ambition.


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I have been looking at the title of this topic again and I wonder:

What is faith? Why would a scientist need it? Does it include faith in self?

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Originally Posted By: Ellis
I have been looking at the title of this topic again and I wonder:

What is faith? Why would a scientist need it? Does it include faith in self?

First off, to be scientific, nothing would be ignored.
All things would find a place since ignoring anything might sabotage objectivity.
Secondly. Faith of any kind need not be blind unless one ignores the connections that reside in the relative world as mind dissects reality through experience.
Thirdly. The relationship in connectivity must be present. The philosophical knower, and the known, in the process of knowing as a reality.

Without at least something in the quality of these ideals there can be no foundation to expand or build upon. Faith that these will continue as tomorrow will follow today, is as much a reality as belief and fact.


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Meow! Curiosity killed the cat! had to un-ignore!

And that post makes sense TT. You seem to feel that reality is knowing--- does that mean comprehension is there as well. It is possible to know and not to understand--- that's the sort of 'knowing' that has to apply, I think, in matters religious. Or do you feel that belief and/or faith must necessarily accompany knowledge? I would suggest it often does not.

You also connect faith and experience, which is logical, but will curtail faith in things not experienced. You appear to infer that the process of knowing transcends reality, that faith and experience matter more. I, on the other hand, think that reality often shapes belief.

I'll ignore point 1 because I'm not very good at ignoring and because you ARE correct--- ignoring does compromise just about anything!

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Originally Posted By: Ellis the curious
Meow! Curiosity killed the cat! had to un-ignore!

And that post makes sense TT. You seem to feel that reality is knowing--- does that mean comprehension is there as well.
in the process of knowing, comprehension is relative to states of consciousness and the refinement of the senses.
Originally Posted By: Ellis the comprehensive
It is possible to know and not to understand--- that's the sort of 'knowing' that has to apply, I think, in matters religious. Or do you feel that belief and/or faith must necessarily accompany knowledge? I would suggest it often does not.
Faith implies devotion, as it is implied, one can have faith in a dog or a cat, or science. To a non scientist, faith in science is often without the knowledge and experience of a scientist, and such devotion to the authority without the fullness of experience and understanding would be blind. Blind faith is not just a religious application.
Originally Posted By: Logical Ellis

You also connect faith and experience, which is logical, but will curtail faith in things not experienced. You appear to infer that the process of knowing transcends reality, that faith and experience matter more. I, on the other hand, think that reality often shapes belief.
Physics is beginning to explore the idea that thoughts and beliefs have an impact on creating reality. Medical sciences used to follow the dictates that the body shaped the mind, but in practical approaches to modern day methods in healing, doctors know the mind affects the body in that it can both heal and make the body sick. This has been explored thru the study of placebos.
Originally Posted By: Wise Ellis

I'll ignore point 1 because I'm not very good at ignoring and because you ARE correct--- ignoring does compromise just about anything!
Faith in a higher process?


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I reserve the right to suggest that you are not a higher process.

ALso I think you blur the distinction between reality and belief by the fact of your beliefs. Yes, a placebo works well for some, though not all, whereas the correct medication would probably do the job for many more. The presence of belief and faith does not always indicate the presence of truth....though as others before Bill S (I think it was!) have said, "What is truth?"

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I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




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Originally Posted By: Ellis the Activist
I reserve the right to suggest that you are not a higher process.
I would never make claims to the propriety of Said process. I do however have my door pass to the library.. wink
Originally Posted By: Ellis of Distinction

ALso I think you blur the distinction between reality and belief by the fact of your beliefs.
Your belief is noted
Originally Posted By: Ellis of Truth
Yes, a placebo works well for some, though not all, whereas the correct medication would probably do the job for many more.

Or not. Not all prescriptions relieve symptoms, and none cure the cause.
The point of interest however is that Doctors are aware of how the mind influences the body and it's health. The unconscious practice of projecting any comments regarding patients status or recovery from the conversation in any surgery has been changed for the known effects it has on patients subconscious activity and patient recovery.

Then there is the controversial subject of consciousness and it's influence at the level of particles in quantum physics.

Originally Posted By: Ellis of Little Faith

The presence of belief and faith does not always indicate the presence of truth....though as others before Bill S (I think it was!) have said, "What is truth?"

I like to think it is the ineffable which remains in its integrity of unbounded potential, prior, during, and after the rendering of suppositions that are projected from the personal reality, or belief system supported by the subjective ego.


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Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle

Originally Posted By: Ellis
Yes, a placebo works well for some, though not all, whereas the correct medication would probably do the job for many more.

Or not. Not all prescriptions relieve symptoms, and none cure the cause.

"How do antibiotics work?"
http://health.howstuffworks.com/medicine/medication/question88.htm


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Rede-- What do you think of the possibility of further (if indeed there has been any in the West) research into phages in view of the superbug situation that we have, admittedly unknowingly, brought on ourselves. Could they help? It is similar to the intestinal treatment mentioned on the title page.

Maybe the placebo effect works with effective treatments too. We want it to work so it does.

May I describe a moment of chagrin, at the very least, for me? My doctor, having dealt with my continuing aches and pains for ages, suggested that I try an acupuncturist. I am nothing if not a sceptic, but I had so much of a problem that I went to see a practitioner. It worked! Not only did it work, but he told me I would not get as much relief on the right side as there was a blockage of the chi. There sure was--- a hip replacement which I hadn't mentioned as I thought he was treating my back only!!!! I still continue to have treatment, maybe it is anti-placebo effect.

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I imagine that people in need of pain relief are unlikely to postpone acupuncture treatment simply because the scientific method has yet to explain its efficacy. Fortunately, in my opinion, authorities in the US and UK appear to take the same view. It has gained a measure of official respectability and recognition, and it's now possible to receive the treatment (if yer lucky) from the National Health Service (UK):

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/womenshealth/features/acupuncture.htm

It's reasonable, and demonstrable, that attitude of mind affects health and can help or hinder healing, be it related to the placebo effect or not. Let's not get too carried away though - placebos don't work on unconscious patients, but antibiotics do smile

Re phages, I think there's reason to be hopeful. The following is dated 18thJan 2012...

Phages: The powerful new bio-ammo in superbug war

"Genetically altered phages can be developed for any bacterium and used in hospital settings to reverse antibiotic resistance in bacteria that cause hospital-acquired infections," the Wall Street Journal notes.

If successful it calls a halt to the arms race between antibiotic-resistant bugs, and superbugs (such as MRSA), and the pharmaceutical industry's ever more powerful bunker-busting antibiotics. The NHS has trialled phages as protection against MRSA (Methicillin resistant Staphylococcus aureus, a variant of Staphylococcus) noting their success.


http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/01/18/phages_fight_superbugs/


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TRIGGERING THE PLACEBO EFFECT USING WILLPOWER...

FIRST, by now most of us know that only in the Comic Books are there supermen, superwomen, superheroes and supergods who will come to earth to rescue and save us in our hour of need. Agreed?

SECOND, the good news is: YOU CAN BE YOUR OWN PNEUMAMAN, PNEUMAWOMAN, PNEUMABOY, OR PNEUMAGIRL, BY USING YOUR PNEUMA-BASED POWER OF CHOICE. OK?

On numerous occasions, I have used what I call pneumatherapy to help individuals, and/or groups, do as suggested above. I always tell people coming for help: If it is your will, you will soon know how to turn on your personal WILLPOWER, INTELLECT & IMAGINATION functions. This is the first step we need to take in finding the solutions we need to our own pain-and-suffering problems.

When people sincerely and willingly agree to accept and act on the suggestions made above, it always amazes me how quickly they learn how to overcome their own RESISTANCE to the help available. When they do, they invariably begin to find the solutions they need for their physical, mental or spiritual problems.

ICEBERGS AND THE PNEUMA COMPONENT OF OUR HUMAN NATURE

Many icebergs, like the one in the link below are seen every Spring, off Newfoundland and not far from www.bellisland.net the island (about 9x3 miles) where I was born, in 1930. It is 9 miles from St.John's.

PNEUMATOLOGICAL (that is, SPIRITUAL) SYMBOLISM of such bergs

THE PNEUMA-- IS ABOUT THAT WHICH IS ALL-ENCOMPASSING.
The 10% of the ice of a berg, which is seen above the waterline. The sky-blue colour of the berg symbolizes the Pneuma component--that is, the human ability to be self-aware and say:
I am and, therefore, I have WILLPOWER--the power to choose to be, or not to be. Using the principle of the Golden Rule, I choose and agree to take personal responsibility for who I am and what I ought to do about it--for self, for others and for the universe in which we live, move and have our being.

THE GOLDEN SUN IS THE SYMBOL OF KNOWLEDGE AND WISDOM
Thus, I have the power of choice to say: I choose to think, learn, know, reason and understand.

THE RED BENEATH THE EARTH, AND OUR SKIN, IS THE SYMBOL OF POWER.

This is the power and energy which enables me to do and to act, as needed.

Take note that 90% of the iceberg is below the waterline. This darker shade of blue symbolizes the unconscious and animal-like mind (psyche) we all have. Located in the skull, our brain is a somatic organ which appears to be connected to every cell of the body (the soma component).

THE ROLE OF THE PNEUMA (spirit, soul, mind)? It is the source of the all-ecompassing will which helps the soma and the psyche to work together and trigger the placebo effect.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150853594032316&l=0fc22e0a4a

Last edited by Revlgking; 05/24/12 02:32 AM. Reason: Always good to do

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Originally Posted By: Rede
placebos don't work on unconscious patients, but antibiotics do


Since the mind is almost certainly involved in the placebo effect, that would seem to make very good sense, but has it been scientifically tested?


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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Originally Posted By: Rede
placebos don't work on unconscious patients, but antibiotics do


Since the mind is almost certainly involved in the placebo effect, that would seem to make very good sense, but has it been scientifically tested?

Actually when you think about it, the placebo is given with the information that the placebo is going to effect a cure or relief of symptoms, so it is the suggestion at work.
Since doctors have found that the unconscious mind is affected by suggestion, the placebo affect can be said to apply when the patient is unconscious or under the influence of anesthesia.


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Originally Posted By: Rev Pneuma


THE ROLE OF THE PNEUMA (spirit, soul, mind)? It is the source of the all-ecompassing will which helps the soma and the psyche to work together and trigger the placebo

All encompassing suggests the will has created what is in effect determined by the mind as a problem.
If we apply that which the ego then determines is God, good, orderly and designs our experience, there would be a conflict of interest. Healing might be a resistance to the flow of spirit or a determination that spirit is out of control.

Hence a determination that spirit is in need of adjustment.
All that is good orderly and determined to irk the humans sense of spirit, order, design and morality is going to be subject to, the personal determination of all that is or the ego.

Is this a democratic process, or, one left to the righteous who have claims to greater understanding as prescribed historically by the church and it's clergy?

What is Spirit? Can it be broken?
What separates Pneumatology from hypnotism?
What separates Pneumatology from belief, especially in the determination of Spirit?
From the illustration of the iceberg all stability is in the mass under the waterline, therefore how do we align with the greater part if it is unknown or unfamiliar?
Is there a difference in the unconscious and the subconscious?
Is it the conscious mind wrapped up in the ego that conflicts with the source of will, and is the source of will the same as the will when it is ruled by ego?


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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Originally Posted By: Rede
placebos don't work on unconscious patients, but antibiotics do

Since the mind is almost certainly involved in the placebo effect, that would seem to make very good sense, but has it been scientifically tested?

A technically valid point, Bill. TT has stated that the unconscious can be accessed for specific information input. Be that as it may, placebo medication is inert and relies on deception for any therapeutic effect; drugs such as antibiotics do not.


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Quote:
Be that as it may, placebo medication is inert and relies on deception for any therapeutic effect


Somewhere, recently, I read about a study in which placebo medication continued to be effective after the patient had been informed that it was a placebo. I will try to find it, but it may not be until the puppies are off hand.


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That's interesting. It would seem that the subject had learned to be confident in the placebo's effectiveness. A conditioned response, perhaps.
Enjoy the pups while they're still with you. I have a soft spot for baby mammals of any kind - as do most people, I guess.


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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
... placebo medication continued to be effective after the patient had been informed that it was a placebo....
Of course Bill, the same thing happens when patients are told the fact that "all hypnosis is self-hypnosis".

PNEUMATHERAPY--THE ART OF SELF HYPNOSIS
This is why I tell pneuma~self~therapy patients who come to see me: By careful exploration of hypnosis decades ago, I got to know a few things about the art of stage hypnosis. Therefore, like Dr. Milton Erickson, I make no claim to be anyone's master. And patients are not here to be my subject--the kind depicted in the movie (1931), Trilby (the subject), which starred John Barrymore as Svengali (the master). Think of me simply as a teacher and that you are a student.

Last edited by Revlgking; 05/25/12 04:14 AM. Reason: Always good to do

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Originally Posted By: Revlgking

PNEUMATHERAPY--THE ART OF SELF HYPNOSIS
I tell pneuma~self~therapy patients who come to see me: By careful exploration of hypnosis decades ago, I got to know a few things about the art of stage hypnosis. Therefore, like Dr. Milton Erickson, I make no claim to be anyone's master. Think of me simply as a teacher and that you are a student.


A thought: typically what hypnosis involves, the suggestion of an idea.
Accepting the idea that one can succeed in a belief that seems to escape ones self in experience, because there is a belief the mind is currently giving priority to.

Where the label of spirit adjustment is concerned/applied by the stage hypnotist, it is not necessarily the spirit inherent in life but the condition of life. An outlook, or a mood?

Obviously no teacher can give a student an experience.

A teacher can be a part in the student creating his or her own experience.
If the teacher is a guide, the teacher will necessarily have their own experience or belief regarding what they are pointing the student towards.

In regards to spirit. If the spirit itself is broken, what is it about the earthly beliefs that take and give of the spirits health?

Is this spirit immortal?

Is this spirit born, nourished and killed with the creation and demise of the physical body?


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