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#41060 - 10/18/11 06:15 PM Re: Does god have a role in science? [Re: Bill S.]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Infinity has no more place in science than does God.

So ... do we throw away calculus? (which would also toss out, for example, any parts of probability depending on it)


Edited by TheFallibleFiend (10/18/11 07:50 PM)

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#41061 - 10/18/11 10:43 PM Re: Does god have a role in science? [Re: Orac]
Revlgking Offline
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Me? I agree, Bill S--TFF I think BS wants to include both: I am rooting for all scientists who are working on giving us Goodness optimized and delightful--G.O.D. for short. As Keats said, such can be "a thing of beauty and a joy forever."--an infinite and eternal process loved for its own sake as well as for the concrete beauty produced.
Quote:
In philosophy, the study of knowledge is called epistemology (from the Greek episteme), and the philosopher Plato famously defined knowledge as "justified true belief." There is, however, no single agreed upon definition of knowledge, and there are numerous theories to explain it. As a pneumatologist, I feel that we ought not neglect intuition as a means of getting knowledge.
It is from the Latin word for knowledge, scientia, that we get our word, science.
Quote:
Knowledge acquisition involves complex cognitive processes: perception, learning, communication, association and reasoning; while knowledge is also said to be related to the capacity of acknowledgment in human beings.





Edited by Revlgking (10/19/11 03:24 AM)
Edit Reason: Always a good idea!
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#41141 - 10/26/11 01:52 AM Re: Does god have a role in science? [Re: Orac]
Bill S. Offline
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Originally Posted By: TFF
So ... do we throw away calculus?


Of course we don't throw away calculus.

As one of eclectic inclinations I am reluctant to throw anything away. However, calculus in so far as it treats infinity, deals with mathematical infinities, which are undoubtedly firmly at home in the realms of science.
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#41978 - 01/03/12 05:54 AM Re: Does god have a role in science? [Re: Bill S.]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
... As one of eclectic inclinations I am reluctant to throw anything away. However, calculus in so far as it treats infinity, deals with mathematical infinities, which are undoubtedly firmly at home in the realms of science.
In the: "Philosophy or Religion, all Religions ..." thread in the NQSscience section, I was just asked WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO ME?
I wrote, here it is: PNEUMATOLOGY--the mother of psychology! And it prompts me to ask: Does it now have the same status as a natural science? If so, a meta-prayer I have been making since 1964 has been recently answered, YES!

The answer is in the form of a great book: WILLPOWER--Rediscovering the Greatest Human Strength. My family gave it to me for Christmas.

If what is claimed here is true: We now have scientific evidence, brought to the light of day by a long period of thorough research, that "willpower"--is like a physical muscle.

This means that it can be measured and put to work like any muscle. Its work is not unlike the goal of all the great world religions: saving civilizations from the curse of self-destruction.

The thought came to me that this belongs in the GENERAL SCIENCE SECTION. With this in mind, I made an act of will. Then, lo and behold, I remembered ORAC's thread. And here we are. Am I in the right place? Or is willpower too iffy to be considered as being part hard science?

THE NEW YORK TIME REVIEW OF THE BOOK

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/04/books/...?pagewanted=all


Edited by Revlgking (01/03/12 06:07 AM)
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#41983 - 01/03/12 01:28 PM Re: Does god have a role in science? [Re: Orac]
Bill S. Offline
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If God has a place in a science thread, I'm sure willpower could be fitted in as well.

Since Orac started this thread, even he can hardly complain. smile

BTW Orac, where have you gone. Without your influence it's so easy to drift away from solid science.
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#41998 - 01/04/12 12:42 AM Re: Does god have a role in science? [Re: Orac]
Ellis Offline
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I'm sure we've been enticed into discussing will power before. In my reply, as I am being urged to adopt an interrogative style--- here goes---

What on earth has willpower to do with God and Science?
Is will power like god because it is invisible?
By what scale of 1--10 would one measure will power?
Is Bill S right when he states that will power is able to be studied as a topic in a science thread because god is?
Does any of this make sense?

That's enough. It's exhausting asking questions. It makes me feel very aggressive. Maybe that is why girls were encouraged to find agreement in discussions when I was growing up (long ago!). Now THERE is an interesting behavioural science question, the place of mediation in the education of girls! However it takes us no further along the discussion path of god's place in science.

It comes back again to the question of belief---
Or- to placate Rev... Do you think it comes back to a question of belief?

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#42004 - 01/04/12 05:28 AM Re: Does god have a role in science? [Re: Ellis]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ellis

It comes back again to the question of belief---
Or- to placate Rev... Do you think it comes back to a question of belief?
It sure does something for the Reverends belief. He's posted the same claims (word for word) for his ideal in more than one place on this board.
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#42006 - 01/04/12 03:29 PM Re: Does god have a role in science? [Re: Orac]
Bill S. Offline
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Quote:
He's posted the same claims (word for word) for his ideal in more than one place on this board.


Could be he thinks that repetition trumps tautology.
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#42007 - 01/04/12 03:35 PM Re: Does god have a role in science? [Re: Orac]
Bill S. Offline
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Quote:
Is Bill S right when he states that will power is able to be studied as a topic in a science thread because god is?


There's a conditional clause in there, Ellis. With TT in the thread, we have to watch the details. smile
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#42013 - 01/04/12 05:45 PM Re: Does god have a role in science? [Re: Bill S.]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill S.


Could be he thinks that repetition trumps tautology.


It's all a matter of perspective isn't it...
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#42022 - 01/05/12 03:53 AM Re: Does god have a role in science? [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ellis
Ellis, your questions and my responses:

Q1. What on earth has willpower to do with God and Science?

A1. In a word, nothing! Ellis, I repeat what I have said before about the "God" you mention in your question--the one believers say they believe in, and the same one that atheists say is an illusion.

I agree with those who say that unless such a "God"--the God of the Bible, the Koran and certain narrow theisms--agrees to show up at a research lab to be questioned, probed, weighed, measured and otherwise explored--is an illusion and has no role or place in science.

BEYOND and within EXISTENCE
G.O.D., on the other hand is a complex and not a simple idea, but something else, something unimaginable. G.O.D. is definitely NOT a dimensional being like the gods and God are imagined to be. G.O.D. is an aseity--a very special and complex concept.

This why I need to use a special acronym, not just a regular noun. When what we today call laser--an acronym for light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation --technology was invented, the inventors had to use more than a simple noun to express was it was:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aseity
http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Gods-Attributes/Aseity/
G.O.D.is not someone who exists in space/time, but rather [b]IS[/b] space/time.

Existing in space/time, like we are now, is prison-like limitation.
===================
Q2. Is will power like god because it is invisible?

A2. Willpower--same as G.O.D.power to me--is like many natural gasses (Hydrogen, oxygen, etc.) invisible to the sight.

But invisible gasses are very real, sensed in others ways by other senses and they can have great impact on life. Think of willpower in the same way. Knowledge of it and how to use it can certainly have an impact on life itself.

FROM the reviews of the book, "WILLPOWER"--Rediscovering the Greatest Human Strength. The book is by Roy Baumeister, an extraordinarily creative scientist who is also the most distinguished experimental social psychologist in the world, and John Tierney, a phenomenally perceptive journalist. Both have teamed up to put will back into its rightful center-stage place. Ignore it at your peril.

======================================================
And overview of the book from a number of sources:
[quote]WILLPOWER is about the science of self-control--the kind we need to live lives that are physically, mentally and spiritually successful from birth to old age. It affects almost every aspect of our lives.

WHAT LEARNING HOW TO TURN ON WILLPOWER CAN DO
People who have learned how to have willpower--and it can be learned--are the ones who eat a healthy diet, get rid of an addiction, exercise, manage their time well and resist the temptations that can often destroy individuals, families, communities and even nations.

The fascinating research on the subject will provide you with simple tricks to help us tap into this important quality.

Once you start reading about this exciting new science of self control, you won't be able to stop. It is a highly intelligent work filled with helpful information and great advice about a core element of modern living.

Long before what we call modern psychology came along as the science of behavious, its mother, pneumatology and her mate philosophy paid a lot of attention to will, willpower and to mental energy. Modern psycholgy shunned them. What a mistake! This masterpiece undoes the damage caused by the mistake.

THE REALLY GOOD NEWS IS; WILLPOWER IS A TERRIFIC AND ENTERTAINING READ

=======================
Q 3. By what scale of 1--10 would one measure will power?

A 3. We'll check how how the book handles this.

Q.4. Is Bill S right when he states that will power is able to be studied as a topic in a science thread because god is?
Does any of this make sense?

A.4. I believe that we will be able to measure how G.O.D. like we are if we will it; how self-aware we are how we can benefit from this.

Q.5. It comes back again to the question of belief---
Or- to placate Rev... Do you think it comes back to a question of belief?

A.5. No need to placate me. This is an opportunity to explore great ideas and themes

Chapter 5 of WILLPOWER is about the quantified self. It is about how understanding what it is and how it works can help us deal with serious obsessive compulsive neurotic behaviour and save much pain and suffering.



Edited by Revlgking (01/05/12 04:37 AM)
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#42028 - 01/05/12 02:27 PM Re: Does god have a role in science? [Re: Orac]
Bill S. Offline
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Quote:
Chapter 5 of WILLPOWER is about the quantified self. It is about how understanding what it is and how it works can help us deal with serious obsessive compulsive neurotic behaviour and save much pain and suffering.


I am very much in favour of trying to alleviate pain and suffering. However, having recently been subjected to some of the philosophies underlying “The Secret”, I am inclined to be a bit extra cautious. In this case, I see something that, basically, I could identify with, that has been hijacked by “libertarian” ideals and has turned into something that is self-centred, uncaring and socially destructive. Anyone see a parallel with some religious practices there?
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#42034 - 01/05/12 07:24 PM Re: Does god have a role in science? [Re: Bill S.]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
...
I am very much in favour of trying to alleviate pain and suffering. However, having recently been subjected to some of the philosophies underlying “The Secret”, I am inclined to be a bit extra cautious.
BS, I agree! Experience has taught me to be cautious and always use due diligence whenever faced with having to make serious decisions that have serious consequences, for good, or ill.
BS, you add
Quote:
In this case, I see something that, basically, I could identify with ...
I assume you mean you could identify with the information I wrote about book, WILLPOWER?

You mention, "libertarian ideals--self-centred, uncaring and socially destructive....some religious practices ..."
Such as ...? What are some that you have in mind?
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#42036 - 01/05/12 08:21 PM Re: Does god have a role in science? [Re: Orac]
Revlgking Offline
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Ellis, further to your question about God and science:

I told you about my god-hypothesis as being BEYOND and within EXISTENCE
G.O.D., on the other hand is a complex and not a simple idea, but something else, something unimaginable. G.O.D. is definitely NOT a dimensional being like the gods and God are imagined to be. G.O.D. is an aseity--a very special and complex concept.

To the above, I add as follows: Read, carefully, what Paul says about THEOS (the Greek for god, generally speaking) in Acts 17:22-34. Here he offers to explain THEOS as the ONE who is not an idol--physically or mentally created.I apologize for the long quote from the Bible. I do it to show that Paul's concept of "god" was pretty advanced for the time in which he lived.
=========================
Acts 17:22-34
New International Version (NIV)
22 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious.[One translation mentions: "And you worship a lot of gods.]

23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.

24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands.

25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.

26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.

27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’[a] As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’[b]

29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill.
30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

32 When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, “We want to hear you again on this subject.”
33 At that, Paul left the Council.
34 Some of the people became followers of Paul and believed. Among them was Dionysius, a member of the Areopagus, also a woman named Damaris, and a number of others.
==================
Paul, the Jewish follower of Jesus--showing how open-minded he was--even quoted Gentile philosophers of whom he knew:
Footnotes:
Acts 17:28 From the Cretan philosopher Epimenides
Acts 17:28 From the Cilician Stoic philosopher Aratus
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#42037 - 01/05/12 09:03 PM Re: Does god have a role in science? [Re: Orac]
Bill S. Offline
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Quote:
I assume you mean you could identify with the information I wrote about book, WILLPOWER?


No. I was referring to “The Secret” which, as far as I can gather, arose as a pseudo-scientific development of some the ideas of David Bohm.

If I am to be drawn into saying more on this subject I should point out that I am certainly not an expert. Also, the philosophy I mentioned relates not just to “The Secret” but to its later development, “The Law of Attraction” (Abraham Hicks). This, it seems includes concepts from QM and the holographic universe, with shades of re-incarnation.

For the moment, though, I shall just set the record straight by saying that I was not imputing libertarian “nasties” to your book.
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#42038 - 01/05/12 09:22 PM Re: Does god have a role in science? [Re: Orac]
Bill S. Offline
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Quote:
I agree with those who say that unless such a "God"--the God of the Bible, the Koran and certain narrow theisms--agrees to show up at a research lab to be questioned, probed, weighed, measured and otherwise explored--is an illusion and has no role or place in science.


Quote:
G.O.D., on the other hand is a complex and not a simple idea, but something else, something unimaginable. G.O.D. is definitely NOT a dimensional being like the gods and God are imagined to be. G.O.D. is an aseity--a very special and complex concept.


A concept which, presumably cannot “show up at a research lab to be questioned, probed, weighed, measured and otherwise explored”.
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#42039 - 01/05/12 11:18 PM Re: Does god have a role in science? [Re: Orac]
Ellis Offline
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I enjoyed this comment on 'willpower' by Rev:
"Once you start reading about this exciting new science of self control, you won't be able to stop".

To use my new interrogative style--- Is that a sterling example of the power of will?--The inability to stop something is surely the outstanding characteristic of the lack of will-power/self-control!

Why, Rev, do you negate the possibility of the existence of a corporeal god over your preferred G.O.D. model of the divine? Many devout worshippers acknowledge that God is at least some sort of entity. Why do you not allow for this belief?

You say God is not a dimensional being. How can you be sure? Many very intellectual and thoughtful scholars do think that. Why are they wrong in your view? I am not saying your view is wrong, but I have always been interested in your complete denial of the most prevalent image of the divinity/ god-thing. You obviously believe in something called, apparently, G.O.D. which seems to be incapable of definition.

In my opinion everyone eventually discovers their own idea of the god thing for themselves. Some stay neatly tucked up in conventional religions, others stray into individual interpretations which satisfy their search for truth. Belief allows them to be devout and steadfast within their faith. Others reject the concept of the supernatural and are comfortable with their decision. Some will always search. It's a personal choice.

Really we are no further in deciding if god has a place in science. It seems that first we have to decide whether we are all talking about the same god idea--- and we are most definitely not! Since both science and god can exist without each other should they be consciously separated?

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#42043 - 01/06/12 05:36 AM Re: Does god have a role in science? [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ellis

1.Why, Rev, do you negate the possibility of the existence of a corporeal god over your preferred G.O.D.?

2.Many devout worshippers acknowledge that God is at least some sort of entity. Why do you not allow for this belief?

3.You obviously believe in something called, apparently, G.O.D. which seems to be incapable of definition.
1.Ellis, do you really expect me to believe there really is a Superman-like god? Or a Batman-like god?

I tried that route, and it didn't work. Look at how many have done it and still do it:
"Please God, or SG, stop all wars and make the poor rich, tomorrow!" Has it happened yet?

Or how about: Make all the bad people good, and the good people nice! Not even that has happened.

The only thing that has worked on TT is WILLPOWER. Did not all of you witness the miracle? laugh

2.Sure, we all have the right to our opinion and to our beliefs, as do I.

However, the difference is: Willpower advocates welcome that opinions and my beliefs be put to the test.

But will the ones who pray to God submit to such a tests? Let us ask them.

This is why I welcome this book, WILLPOWER. It helped one of the authors overcome a very serious compulsive neurosis.

IMO, it could, and should, be used to help all people needing it to overcome any kind of addiction, or perversion, especially the criminal kind. I used it, often, years ago to help people (including myself), and still do.

3. G.O.D., as willpower, can be tested. This implies that science is an extension of G.O.D. Therefore, they are components in the ONENess.

==========
The more I read about Willpower in the book, WILLPOWER, and the more I act on it, the more I equate G.O.D. with willpower. This means that things get done that would have gone undone.

For some time I have been aware that this has been happening since I was a very young.

Therefore, G.O.D. I find can become visible and palpable through us--sons and daughter of G.O.D.

Now, as I go through the ageing process, I am using willpower to add value to living in last decade or so of my life.
==========



Edited by Revlgking (01/06/12 05:49 AM)
Edit Reason: Always good to do
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#42044 - 01/06/12 06:56 AM Re: Does god have a role in science? [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking

I tried that route, and it didn't work. Look at how many have done it and still do it:
"Please God, or SG, stop all wars and make the poor rich, tomorrow!" Has it happened yet?

Or how about: Make all the bad people good, and the good people nice! Not even that has happened.

The only thing that has worked on TT is WILLPOWER. Did not all of you witness the miracle? laugh

In what way was your will power directed toward me?

Wouldn't it be beneficial to direct your will power to stop all wars, make the poor rich, or the good people out of bad? Obviously your will power is strong enough to push the ignore button to ignore what you don't like or prefer in your creation.

To what limits does will extend itself, or is will power unlimited?
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

2.Sure, we all have the right to our opinion and to our beliefs, as do I.

However without the ability to see the personal God in all of those opinions, the best power of will is to block out that which does not appear to be the same God or will of God. This is how will is limited to the ego and becomes ineffective as will is measured against the force of the opposing will of God and other personal beliefs.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

However, the difference is: Willpower advocates welcome that opinions and my beliefs be put to the test.

To see if those opinions have the same value as ones own opinions and beliefs?
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

But will the ones who pray to God submit to such a tests? Let us ask them.

Who is making up these tests? God? Or the ego which wills "that which is annoying be dissolved and dis-created?
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

This is why I welcome this book, WILLPOWER. It helped one of the authors overcome a very serious compulsive neurosis.

It is likely they overcame neurosis thru the belief that Health was more of a preference than neurosis. The idea that one wills away that which is less than preferable, is missing the greater reality where one focuses on the greater reality and creates it because of belief and experience in the mind having an effect in all experiences. Since the mind is the master, what you focus on grows when the attention is given to something greater than the illusion.
If the subconscious holds the illusion as truth no surface incantation of the mind can erase it. The greater truth has to be known before the illusion is abandoned.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

IMO, it could, and should, be used to help all people needing it to overcome any kind of addiction, or perversion, especially the criminal kind. I used it, often, years ago to help people (including myself), and still do.

When someone wants to change their mind, the experience of reality follows. One has to accept the greater reality which lessens the grip on the lesser one. Will power as you describe it, is the application of one belief to dissolve the other. Belief precedes the experience which then in turn allows the mind to let go of the previous belief.

Originally Posted By: Revlgking

3. G.O.D., as willpower, can be tested. This implies that science is an extension of G.O.D. Therefore, they are components in the ONENess.

Using this rationale it can be applied to illusions and stress. Where God being the force of will which holds the body in stress and illusion is equal to the force which frees it from stress. The one-ness of God therefor is experienced in the contrast which opens the eyes to the alternative experience, and brings one closer to the idea that the body follows the mind as the creator of both sickness and health. Simply willing ones self into health only addresses the symptoms of separation from the God creator within. It does not address the creator self directly nor does it directly address the God within the illness.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

The more I read about Willpower in the book, WILLPOWER, and the more I act on it, the more I equate G.O.D. with willpower. This means that things get done that would have gone undone.
Like your misinterpretations of Tolles NOW, you are ignoring what is prior to your God created miracles as being God in the first place. Do you not see the miracle of God creating all things including neurosis?
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

For some time I have been aware that this has been happening since I was a very young.

Therefore, G.O.D. I find can become visible and palpable through us--sons and daughter of G.O.D.

If God pleases you.... This is typical of all religionists. This is how churchianity separates the demons from the gods thru witch hunting.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

Now, as I go through the ageing process, I am using willpower to add value to living in last decade or so of my life.
==========

This value may be only what you believe to be valued. Which still may be the separation of utility and God in what you might call suffering and chaos, since your G.O.D. May not be orderly until it meets the goals of your value system.
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#42051 - 01/06/12 06:11 PM Re: Does god have a role in science? [Re: Orac]
Bill S. Offline
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Loc: Essex, UK
As far as one can generalise about such things, I think we believe what we believe because that is what we need to believe; even if that need is buried so far in our past (or subconscious) that we cannot recognise it.

By the same generalisation, defending our beliefs, even in what purports to be open minded discussion, tends to have the effect of strengthening those beliefs.

I think it would be an interesting exercise if Rev and TT were to change sides and each defend the other's viewpoint.
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There never was nothing.

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