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Ellis #41872 12/23/11 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted By: Ellis
... So- keep going Rev. I'm sure you have lots to say--- Incidentally you did not answer directly to Bill's challenge on the 'Great Physician' I believe. I await your answer on that point with interest.
Thanks for your interest in this thread, everyone, including those who have ideas other than I do. Keep up your critique. But as Ellis pointed out. It is best to keep it short and to the point.
===============
PNEUMATOLOGY--the mother of modern psychology.
Briefly, I repeat something I said before: Readers of this forum will be aware of the fact that when I started this thread, I let it be known that, since my student days, I have been deeply interested in the study of 'pneumatology'(the study of the human spirit)--that is, the study of what the human spirit is and how by the simple act of will and affirmation we can pull the trigger that makes mental and physical things happen.

Following my own advice about brevity, I briefly say: When Jesus spoke about the power of the PNEUMA--the Spirit, he laid the foundation on which modern psychology is built. The moment we will to cultivate the Spirit of healing within us this great power starts all the processes necessary to accomplish what needs to be done.

Now, modern researchers are finally catching up to what Jesus taught and are writing about it. Check it out here: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/04/books/...?pagewanted=all

The book is titled:WILLPOWER--Rediscovering the Greatest Human Strength Now, what are your questions and comments?

Last edited by Revlgking; 12/23/11 06:18 AM.

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Revlgking #41875 12/23/11 07:16 AM
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Not Sure how Roy F. Baumeister and John Tierney came to be associated with the Teachings of Jesus but in reference to affirmations, psychology is not so engaged with the experience and teachings of spirituality or the spirit.
When the underlying subconscious is plagued with beliefs of difficulty and stress, pasting a good thought on top of a not so good thought does not negate or erase the stress. The body always follows the mind and the mind will need to find a way to step into an experience which is greater than the stress in order to let the stress go. Otherwise it becomes a battle between two opposing thoughts.
The unconscious programs of stress and difficulty in life in any endeavor, and the belief that the positive thoughts can relieve ones self of the subconscious beliefs that have created the experience of those subconscious beliefs, are not dealt with solely on the conscious level.
Often those who have tried on their own to superimpose the positive affirmations withdraw into their old habits.

If one could learn to have a direct experience of the Spirit within, rather than the positive ideal belief and definition of spirit, the experience would lead the mind to surrender the illusions of the stress to the greater reality of the spirit. This is closer to what Jesus taught. Direct experience rather than adopting a personal belief system which conflicts with other personal belief systems.
The spirit is universal and supports all beliefs, but the universality of reality is obscured by the individual belief system which idealizes which belief in the spirit or God is good better or best.

The current state of spirituality reflected by the religions and their need to separate themselves and their beliefs from each other is testimony to this reality.

If it were truly that simple to add a positive thought to solve all issues I think it would have manifested itself long ago. People are not by nature self destructive. Instead because of the ego, people measure themselves against each other and struggle to gain favor amongst themselves and others by supporting individual belief in rallying a majority to protect themselves in their ideal belief about their selves, and their ideas.

Even of one finds a way to temporarily fend off evil the idea that it exists puts them on watch and in fear of losing their ideal to that evil.

Without the direct experience of evil as an illusion of the ego and the ability to See and Experience God in everything, the mind will divide itself thru the beliefs in good and evil and in turn separate itself from others that it sees as part of the opposing force.

No positive thought can erase this fear, in fact every religion and belief system supports this fear based reality.
Where there is no beauty or order to ones relationship with an idea and personal belief there is no God or spirit.
This is however contrary to the idea that God is omnipresent and all powerful, when God has indeed been removed from creation by the eyes of ignorance in superficial beliefs of a personal nature.


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




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I have just been reading some of the original writing of James Hutton, of which I copy a small extract below:

“In the one case, the forming cause is in the body which is separated; for; after the body has been actuated by heat, it is by the action of the proper matter of the body, that the chasm which constitutes the vein is formed.”

Fortunately for later generations of geologists, John Playfair rendered Hutton’s work into readable prose. Sometimes I wonder if SAGG should have a resident “Playfair”.

BTW, Ellis, as we have just passed the shortest day, here, I assume you are around the longest day in your part of the world. Isn’t relativity a wonderful thing? smile


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LET'S ALL SEEK CLARITY IN COMMUNICATION

Bill S, thanks for mentioning "readable prose", and the joy it is to find writers who know how to write such prose.

I assume you are, or were, involved in geology or other of earth sciences? ... Do you happen to have a "translation" of what Hutton was trying to say?

Unreadable prose--based on incomprehensible lectures? In my opinion, such are often the work of certain high-brow academics out to impress the hoi polloi. It has been said that, it is not a pose they strike, to impress the hoi polloi (the laity, people); the high-brows often seem to like the things they don't really enjoy.

Anyone: Keeping in mind that all communication is two-way, when you catch me writing unreadable prose, I encourage you to call me on it, cut and past the paragraph, and with a smile ask for a translation. I love clarity--both ways.
..


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The nearest I know to a direct translation of Hutton's work is John Playfair's "Illustrations of the Huttonian Theory of the Earth". Amazon (UK) have it at about £25. It's over 200 years old, so although Hutton was a man ahead of his time, it's going to be a bit dated.

Quote:
when you catch me writing unreadable prose


Did you really think I was pointing a finger at you?

OK, I'm really going to get pedantic: "the hoi polloi": repetition of the definite article. laugh


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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
... It's over 200 years old, so although Hutton was a man ahead of his time, it's going to be a bit dated.
Now, can you give us an idea what he was trying to say in the bit you quoted?

Blame my dictionary regarding my use of "hoi polloi"--< Greek for the many people. I took it as being listed as a special noun.
Quote:
Did you really think I was pointing a finger at you?
No, I didn't.


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3,145,000 Hits
Thread active for 5 years 10 months or roughly 2,135 days.
Average total for hits each day 1,473
Total post average per day 1.3

Total members 2,645. Of those members, 45 have posted or 2%(?) over 5 years 10 months. (Obviously not accurate since there were not as many members 5 years ago)
Of those Members the reverend makes up for almost 40% of the posts about 20% of those 45 make up for the majority of the rest with over 50 posts in 5 years and 60% have posted 1 to 10 replies leaning toward the lower than 6 reply average.

If you subtract the average daily post in 2,135 days which is 2,776 or the 1.3 per day, that means that 1,472.7 people per day pass upon viewing the content of the topic.

Thought those who are impressed with numbers might enjoy these.


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Could it be that someone has too much time on his/her hands!


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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Could it be that someone has too much time on his/her hands!
Everyone has just enough, never more, never less.

Such is the perfection of the universe... The infinite unchanging reality don'tcha know..


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Quote:
"An infinite, unchanging reality exists hid behind the illusion of ceasless change." Bhagavad Gita.


The reality is that the infinite is never hidden, rather it is ignored for the attention given to favored idealisms of the ego.
The illusions of favored perceptions in belief, blind an individual of realities that are not contained by the individual within the belief and opinion system.
People see what they want to see rather than what they can see.
Within the infinite is potential, for an entire scope of vision, which allows for all scenarios as the perfect reflection of that potential.
The idealist hopes that their order is more perfect than an order less idealized, and that all lesser will become the perfect order; but in fact it is the perceptions of the individual that must change to see the greater reflection of themselves, as the potential/infinite which is never exclusive, but all encompassing.
Without the direct experience of the underlying infinite within ones self, it cannot be viewed or experienced in anything else. It can only be conceptualized within the ego when experience is vacant, and then the world is divided into the personal idea of what God is and isn't, within and outside of ones self. There is no experience of Union with God when something is not experienced as God. Without the direct experience of the infinite when it is not idealized or ignored there is only belief. As we all know, belief is always, in a mode of constant change.

Some just struggle more than others to resist the change and to fight for the personal reality.

When it aint God it Stinks! Right Rev?

EGO...everything, goes, outward...
All attention is on idealization outside of ones personal belief system.

There must be less of this
There must be more of that
If I were God, everything would look as I would imagine it to be.... Funnily enough, you are... and it is already that!
God sees/experiences itself in everything it creates.

Ego sees itself only in what someone else or some force outside of ones self creates, unless it idealizes itself in and amongst the variegated illusions of belief which are separated from all those things it does not identify with.


We all know Dasher, Dancer, Comet, etc. And, of course, we all have heard of Rudolph. But I’ll bet there’s one most of you don’t know – OLIVE !! She helped make Rudolph famous. Remember her? Olive the other reindeer used to laugh and call him names.....

Merry Christmas !!


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5000 more hits since I posted yesterday and only one posted other than me....

Guess the topic heading is not enough to draw the attention of the other 4,998

Hmmm...Maybe It's just that there is something wrong with the 4,998 viewers, or as the Rev has labeled them, LURKERS!


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UPDATE ON THE NUMBERS

14,857 hits since I posted numbers, and only two (mentioned) posts by members who have previously engaged in this topic of conversation.
14,855 passed on commenting or adding anything to the conversation in three days.

It's amazing how much activity is on the internet even during Christmas.

The totals to date are now 1650 posts in 5 years 10 months and
3,158,207 in the same amount of time, who have passed on commenting when viewing the content of this thread.

Perhaps the current participants, are too territorial, in asking the posters and potential participants to curb their expressions of belief, by suggesting all participants should be following their personal idea of how, and what, is ideal to post?

I realize that some are greatly in favor of the instant gratification scenario, and have a short attention span when reading material that wanders outside the favored formatting of those who are invested in the ownership of their topics of favor. Perhaps if the current posters would allow for the occasional post where instant criticism was not the policy and personal favoritism towards certain beliefs in reality were not exemplified as the right way to post or participate.

Truly the philosophy of religion is greater than the practice of dogma, where God is narrowed to an order that seemingly judges and pushes away all that is not eyed as favorable and or within the boundaries of the personal belief of the congregation.

Psychologically speaking it is often difficult for someone to break a habit, particularly if they are at an age where habit has been perpetuated for a great number of years.
Becoming conscious of habit is however relative to the expanded intellect.
Understanding and experience of self defeating habits, coupled with the experience of a tolerant mind which is immersed in the potential of vision and experience, can often counter the limitations of belief and let loose of judgment that is self destructive and projected upon others.


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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Could it be that someone has too much time on his/her hands!
Rhetoric, IMO, which contains easily understood and useful information makes for readable prose. However, it is the use of too much twisted rhetoric that makes it difficult to identify any salient points.


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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Rhetoric, IMO, which contains easily understood and useful information makes for readable prose. However, it is the use of too much twisted rhetoric that makes it difficult to identify any salient points.


Amen.

And I might add,... information is often divided into categories of usefulness based on beliefs and personal desires, which is then narrowed.. to the exclusion of that which is universal, for that which is personally acceptable.

Religion and personal belief has a history for preference in behavior, to the point of becoming destructive towards that which emanates a different or misunderstood language as the opposing thought and idea.

Holy wars don'tcha know. Battles where God is on one side but not the other.

Speaking to that effect and readable prose, how many really understand the Bible?

Jesus was the example of an irritation to the hierarchy of the time which was the Pharisees and Sadducees standing behind the government. Actually the person in the ruling seat was more of a sock puppet to the spiritual advisers in the form of the priests.

The conflict between the pharisees and sadducees, and Jesus' ministry was mostly based on the conflict of meaning and definition of authority as well as the meaning and definition of spirituality.
When the priests confronted Jesus they wished to maintain their rule thru the subjective idealization of personal merit.
Having been born and raised in luxury and title, the priests would try to objectify their point by measuring their idea of authority against personal background.

The priests would say to Jesus, "Who are you to speak of God? You are a simple carpenters son and we are born and bred to rule, with the education and reputation of generations in spiritual grooming."

Jesus' simple response was that it is not pride in ones self or the reputation that is broadcast of pride that makes a man Godly, but rather one who has built a relationship with God making that relationship self evident in thought feeling and action.

Being that the pharisees did not know God, but instead idealized their version of God which was built on the pride and reputation of the title they carried and defended, they could not see where Jesus had any relationship to God. In fact they made it their mission to destroy Jesus because he threatened their pride and their title.

The pharisees made it their job and mission to defend their idealized version of God, by passing their rule of judgement upon Jesus as speaking words that made no sense or had any value in the approach and lifestyle of anyone who would want to know and understand God.

The obvious outcome of the destruction of Jesus by the priests in the story portrayed in the bible, is that even tho the pharisees insisted Jesus had twisted the meanings of scripture, the teachings of Jesus have survived.

There are a great number of people who did not understand the ministry of Jesus, but they did marvel at the magnetic personality and his ability to attract so many followers, as well as his reputation for performing miracles.

As for the pharisees, they are still active in preaching the gospel of self measure. To them title and meaning are always the defining tool to keep the attention on circumstance rather than that which underlies all creative and reflective experiences of creativity.


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Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing.

- I Corinthians XIII -

Love in the sense of the above is not a feeling...(tho one can have feelings about it), it is without judgment (tho one can have judgments about it), it is all supportive and all encompassing (tho one can reject and define and separate it from themselves and others).

Trembling I sit day and night
my friends are astonish'd at me
Yet they forgive my wanderings, I rest not from my great task!
To open the Eternal Worlds
to open Immortal eyes of man inwards into the Worlds of Thought
into Eternity Ever expanding in the Bosom of God
the Human Imagination.

For all Men in Eternity..
Rivers, Mountains, Cities, Villages..
All are Human..
and when you enter into their Bosoms you walk in Heavens and Earths..
as in your own Bosom you bear your Heaven And Earth
and all you behold.
Tho it appears Without it is Within
In your Imagination of which this World of Mortality is but a Shadow

- Blake -





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Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle
[i] Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal....
- I Corinthians XIII -
Love, in the sense it is used in 1 Corinthians 13, is not a feeling per se...(tho one can have feelings about it); it is without judgment (tho one can have judgments about it), it is all supportive and all encompassing (tho one can reject and define and separate it from themselves and others).
I agree. As I understand it, "Love"--the Greek for which is 'agape'--is that which includes all-inclusive good willings, plus all good and appropriate feelings.


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Revlgking #41912 12/29/11 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle
[i] Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal....
- I Corinthians XIII -
Love, in the sense it is used in 1 Corinthians 13, is not a feeling per se...(tho one can have feelings about it); it is without judgment (tho one can have judgments about it), it is all supportive and all encompassing (tho one can reject and define and separate it from themselves and others).
I agree. As I understand it, "Love"--the Greek for which is 'agape'--is that which includes all-inclusive good willings, plus all good and appropriate feelings.
All feelings are good feelings.
Not all feelings, feel good.
The human nervous system can reflect the infinite within, but it is the FINITE judgment which determines what is good, based on relative values of personal belief.
Belief can limit the reflection of the infinite into the relative personal system of self judgment to separate any and all things from the individual ideal.
When this separation occurs, suffering ensues.


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Originally Posted By: TT
All feelings are good feelings.


Would you consider that to be something you know, or something you believe?


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Originally Posted By: TT
The reality is that the infinite is never hidden


It may be true that the infinite never hides itself, but if an individual, consciously or unconsciously, hides infinity, then for that person, it is hidden. If millions of individuals do that, then it is hidden for all of them. This situation could even pertain for the majority of people. I suspect that the B.G. is pointing to something like that, rather than to any intrinsic "hiddenness" in the nature of infinity.


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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
... if an individual, consciously or unconsciously, hides infinity, then for that person, it is hidden. If millions of individuals do that, then it is hidden for all of them.
Questions about the process of "hiding infinity":

In your opinion, if one decides to consciously "hide infinity", what steps does one take in the act of doing so?

Is infinity a suitable phenomenon for scientific research?

Is infinity the same as space?

I have an article from a recent issue of the National Post, Canada, which reported that Bertrand Russell said that the amount of available knowledge in the universe is limited. In your opinion, Was he right?

B.G. stands for ...?


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