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#41533 - 11/18/11 07:39 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Ellis]
Orac Offline
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Thanks for your time to answer Ellis .. regardless it helps.

Originally Posted By: Ellis

Orac- As Bill S says I actually do not believe in God. Unlike you I have never struggled with this decision.


Growing up I had no choice it was discouraged/forbidden and even more so for me as I was chosen and sent to state run advanced schooling.

What I am struggling with most at the moment is fundemental understanding there seems to be alot of covert understanding. I am not sure how to explain this ... I lack the words. They seem to want me to become converted to the religion before I am allowed to understand what it is I am agreeing to ... that probably doesn't make sense.

Quote:

I knew as a child I did not believe in the supernatural in any form. I did however have an unusually solid grounding in the doctrine of the (protestant) christian faith, and since then I have enjoyed researching other religions. You may find that your quest ends in a similar way. Enlightenment has many possibilities and knowledge can lead to unforeseen destinations.


That is most certainly true.
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#41535 - 11/18/11 11:45 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Bill S. Offline
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Originally Posted By: O
They seem to want me to become converted to the religion before I am allowed to understand what it is I am agreeing to ... that probably doesn't make sense.


It makes perfect sense. If they wait until you understand, you may choose not to convert. If you convert first, you will accept whatever they tell you as the truth.

I don't know a lot about the religious situation in US, but I have the impression that various Born-again Christian Sects are very influential. My feeling is that they can be a bit on the dogmatic side. I believe some of them are funding efforts in UK to change the teaching of creation/evolution in our schools.
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#41536 - 11/18/11 03:21 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Bill S.]
Orac Offline
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I got shocked and upset an islam friend when I found out about al-Qiyamah and I would be required to believe it.

I said I can not, and he explained I had no choice it was the faith. I offended him very badly when I told him I could never believe that.

What I could never believe was that a god who was kind and merciful, would have humans essentially live through hardships and die to prove themselves good or bad, kill everyone on the planet and then send some to heaven and some to hell. We would not condon torture of an animal in that way and I refuse to believe a god would act less humane than us.

He has never spoken to me since.

I learnt from that experience it is wise to learn what religions expect you to believe before getting involved.
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#41542 - 11/19/11 05:47 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
redewenur Offline
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Sam Harris has spoken so eloquently on these matters that he could save a lot of time and unnecessary posts here. While he may not be a God-given authority (!), he's well worth listening to.
Text:
http://www.samharris.org/site/about/
http://www.samharris.org/site/articles/
Sample video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=J3YOIImOoYMhttp://www.youtube.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=I8ZYiLSPDHE
Some lighter entertainment from Bill Maher:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=95iRvZOtUWA
Also worth checking out: Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett.


Edited by redewenur (11/19/11 05:49 AM)
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#41547 - 11/19/11 08:19 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
redewenur Offline
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Correction of first video link in previous post:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=J3YOIImOoYM
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#41548 - 11/20/11 02:40 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Ellis Offline
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Orac-- Just after reading your latest post I came across a quote from Galileo, a person who himself had a lot of experience with the stubborn nature of the rigidity of religious belief.

His comment was:
"I do not believe that the same God who endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use."

It's an argument that is difficult to refute!

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#41556 - 11/20/11 10:00 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Bill S.]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
... Just to “nit-pick” before Rev does. smile
Nit-pick--to pick at something in a petty or niggling manner. BS, I have never though of you as a niggler. And if I ever become one, please let me know. This being said, it is my opinion that, from the beginning Jesus never intended to establish anything like the "One true church" model later created by the cruel and pragmatic emperor, Constantine, in the fourth century. More on this, later.
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#41558 - 11/20/11 10:09 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Bill S. Offline
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Rev, that is metaphorical nit-picking; very different from the real thing; a bit like mathematical infinities and real infinity, but smaller. smile
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#41560 - 11/21/11 02:41 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Ellis Offline
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I know I should resist- but the temptation is too great.

Big fleas* have little fleas
Upon their backs to bite 'em.
And little fleas have smaller fleas
And so ad infinitum!

Read "nits"!!!!

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#41568 - 11/21/11 09:27 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Bill S. Offline
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Will it be Orac who points out that it is unscientific to suggest that nits bite!

I think you are safe, though, because this is NQS, so you can have a theory all of your own. smile
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#41577 - 11/22/11 12:17 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Bill S.]
Orac Offline
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You did it first Bill S ... as you sort of pointed out technically they insert a proboscis to drain blood the same as a mosquito .. they don't bite.

Perhaps just as we just did to derail this topic !!!!!

But it is NQS so perhaps we will let it slide.
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#41582 - 11/22/11 05:42 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: redewenur]
Revlgking Offline
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Orac, and Fellow philosophers, perhaps this, thanks to Rede..., will help us get back on the track of this thread:

Originally Posted By: redewenur
Sam Harris has spoken so eloquently on these matters that he could save a lot of time and unnecessary posts here. While he may not be a God-given authority (!), he's well worth listening to.
Text:
http://www.samharris.org/site/about/ ...

=====================================
Rede..., Thanks for reminding me of:
THE END OF FAITH?
================
Sam Harris is the author of the New York Times bestsellers, The End of Faith, Letter to a Christian Nation, and The Moral Landscape. The End of Faith won the 2005 PEN Award for Nonfiction.

Mr. Harris's writing has been published in over fifteen languages. He and his work have been discussed in Newsweek, TIME, The New York Times, Scientific American, Nature, Rolling Stone, and many other journals. His writing has appeared in Newsweek, The New York Times, The Los Angeles Times, The Economist, The Times (London), The Boston Globe, The Atlantic, The Annals of Neurology, and elsewhere.

Mr. Harris is a Co-Founder and CEO of Project Reason, a nonprofit foundation devoted to spreading scientific knowledge and secular values in society. He received a degree in philosophy from Stanford University and a Ph.D. in neuroscience from UCLA.
===========================

BTW, as one with G.O.D. and in G.O.D., like Harris, I embrace REASON. Faith, for me, has had its day. I now pursue THE BEGINNING OF KNOWLEDGE.
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#41585 - 11/22/11 08:19 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Bill S. Offline
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Originally Posted By: O
technically they insert a proboscis to drain blood the same as a mosquito ..


Nits are the eggs of head lice, so no proboscis either.

Sorry Rev; now you can get back on track. smile
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#41589 - 11/23/11 03:26 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Bill S.]
Orac Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Originally Posted By: O
technically they insert a proboscis to drain blood the same as a mosquito ..


Nits are the eggs of head lice, so no proboscis either.

Sorry Rev; now you can get back on track. smile



Bill S got me there ... I bow to his accuracy.

Now getting back on track I have read alot more around what appears to be never ending versions of christianity.I think I actually have lost count.

It appears that some christian groups believe is something like al-Qiyamah, that there is the end of the world, something called "end of days" but not all?

On catholic teachings I ran into =>

"According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Catholic beliefs concerning the End Times are addressed in the Profession of Faith"

But I can't find any reference online from there.


Christianity appears to be the most diverse religious group I have ever seen.


Does anyone know what the common link between al-Qiyamah is in some Christianity and Islam? Surely it can't be accidental it's so bizzare so I am assuming there is a historic link somewhere.


Edited by Orac (11/23/11 03:26 AM)
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#41591 - 11/23/11 05:50 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Ellis Offline
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Christianity is diverse Orac. This is because before the Reformation the only people who could directly address god in prayer were the saints and the priests of the church. Kings and rulers had to allow the church to administer earthly power- Church Law was the most important and laws passed in parliaments had to be ratified by the church authorities in Rome.

After the Reformation the people who protested (now known as Protestants, Lutherans, Calvinists etc,.) were able to speak to god on their own behalf, without the intercession of saints or guidance of priests, and they were also able to read God's words for themselves in the Bible. This means that people can make up their own minds on the interpretation of the teachings in there.

This is the process that continues today. Each church has its set of dogma, some believe in the End of Days, others don't, and it is not necessary to formally join a church to worship. The point is that there is no longer a 'correct way' to be a Christian, other than deciding that the teachings of Jesus should be a foundation- and even that seems to be optional in some churches.

I suppose that the link between al-Qiymah and Christianity possibly lies in the fact that both (plus Judaism) have the Old Testament books as contributing to their holy writings, and certainly there are some stirring prophesies in them-- also the Book of Revelations in the New Testament is crammed with prophesy and would have been familiar to Muslims over the centuries too-- perhaps. Do you agree?

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#41592 - 11/23/11 07:29 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Ellis]
Orac Offline
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Yes I have given my readings on Christian groups a break my head was exploding.

I read about the reformation and then was following the "end of days" story through christian history of the second great awakening to the "the great dissapointment"
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Disappointment)
from which groups like the Seventh Day adventists emerged.

I am off to read up on jewish faith next I think they sound interesting, I need a break from christians :=)


Edited by Orac (11/23/11 07:33 AM)
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I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#41600 - 11/23/11 06:05 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Revlgking Offline
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Orac, when reading about Judaism: Keep in mind that Jesus was not a Christian; he was a Jew who sought to reform Judaism and help make it more inclusive of the Gentile world.

The Apostle Paul, a Jew, carried out the first mission to the Gentiles. Read the Book of Acts--not a long read. Then read his letters. Start with Romans.
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#41601 - 11/23/11 08:05 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Turner]
Ellis Offline
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Whilst reading Paul's contribution Orac, remember that Paul was not Jesus. He was a fanatical mystic who really didn't like his fellow humans (especially the female ones) much! His contribution was considered more and more important as time went on.

Rev makes an important point when he reminds us that Jesus was a religious Jew whose aim was to reform. Thus he became a threat to the authorities in Rome and his homeland.


Edited by Ellis (11/23/11 08:08 PM)
Edit Reason: added a bit

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#41602 - 11/23/11 08:58 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Turner]
Revlgking Offline
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Check out this interesting book, HOW JESUS BECAME A CHRISTIAN, by professor Barry Wilson, York University, Toronto:
http://www.compassionatespirit.com/How-Jesus-Became-Christian.htm



Edited by Revlgking (11/23/11 09:08 PM)
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#41604 - 11/23/11 11:04 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Turner]
Bill S. Offline
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Originally Posted By: O
I am off to read up on jewish faith next I think they sound interesting


You could find some variety in Jewish beliefs as well. Good luck with the Old Testament!
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