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#41605 - 11/23/11 11:29 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Turner]
Ellis Offline
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That sounds as though it is an interesting book, Rev, with an interesting slant on Jesus' life history (legend, myth,....).

Maybe the shifting of the emphasis of Jesus as a Jew to Jesus as the sacrifice and saviour in fact led to the way that the early church encouraged absorption of existent religious myth into their own story of the life of Jesus. This quirk is evident in the date of celebration for Christmas, the Easter name and extraneous myths, the sacrifice of the god himself - plus heaps more. Paul was a Roman citizen and may have realised that the blending of these familiar ideas would help expand the acceptance and spread of the new religion into the Roman Empire.

The whole Mithras Myth bears a huge resemblance to Christian belief I think. None of that stems from the teachings of Jesus himself, the influence appears to be the other way.

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#41617 - 11/25/11 12:53 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Bill S.]
Orac Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
You could find some variety in Jewish beliefs as well. Good luck with the Old Testament!


Bill S I had no idea what you meant when you wrote this but all I can say is you are a very mean man.

Ok I think I also understand some churches in USA here, so is the following correct

fundementalist => belief in literal translation of old testament

I do not mean to offend anyone so lets just say "NO" and "moving on" back to my headache with the christians.


Edited by Orac (11/25/11 12:59 AM)
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#41619 - 11/25/11 04:24 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Orac]
Orac Offline
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Sorry I had one lingering question on Jewish beliefs which was how do they view the new testament.

I can't get a clear answer and most of the discussion dissappears into hebrew which I can't read.

Reading (http://whatjewsbelieve.org/) alot of this seems to directly contradict the new testament??????
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#41625 - 11/25/11 05:38 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Orac]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Orac
[quote=Bill S.]... back to my headache with the christians.
"headache with the Christians"? In my opinion, the best way to judge others is by looking at what they do. Deeds always speak louder than creeds. The same principle holds in judging ourselves. Let our deeds speak.

My first assignment as a newly ordained minister (June, 1953), of the United Church of Canada, was to go to new area--with the nick name of Happy Valley--not far from North West River, on Lake Melville, in Labrador:

http://www.townofnwr.ca/home/5

There, my wife and I found 115 families living as squatters near the Goosebay Airbase--built to serve the British, American and Canadian forces during WW 2. Happy Valley is now a small city of nearly 9,000 people.

The Goose airbase was started in 1942. That year, German subs sank ships belonging to the Allies all along the east coast of the Americas. I saw four iron-ore carriers sunk a short distance from where I lived. Sixty-nine merchant seamen lost their lives. For the story details see www.bellisland.net


Edited by Revlgking (11/25/11 10:23 PM)
Edit Reason: Always a good idea!
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#41628 - 11/25/11 10:57 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Turner]
Ellis Offline
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Orac-- You are in fact on to something! The New Testament is one of the main fundamental divisions that separate Jewish, and also Muslim beliefs. All 3 faiths believe a Messiah-like figure will come to save believers (indeed that is a promise in many of the world's religions.) The difference is that the Christians believe that this has happened once already, and the most of the others are still unconvinced.

The New Testament is an account of Jesus' life , death and some of what happened immediately afterwards, and, to some extent, what will happen in the future. It really contradicts some/most aspects of Judaism and Islam. However don't those faiths also accept Jesus as a Prophet?

Christians however,see acceptance of Jesus as their saviour and the son of god, and, also, by reason of his sacrifice, he is the way to Eternal Life in the presence of their god for believers. Most christian sects believe a variation of this statement which is radically different from the other two faiths (and apparently enough to fight bitterly for centuries about).

Judaism has many divisions too. It seems to me that most religions do!

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#41629 - 11/26/11 01:15 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Turner]
Bill S. Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rev
[quote=Bill S.]... back to my headache with the christians.


Now, there's something I didn't say!
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#41634 - 11/26/11 05:46 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Bill S.]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Originally Posted By: Orac
... back to my headache with the Christians.


Now, there's something I didn't say!
You are right, Bill S. It was a comment by Orac (Nov.24), which I now correct.



Edited by Revlgking (11/26/11 05:51 PM)
Edit Reason: Always a good idea!
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#41636 - 11/27/11 02:29 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Orac Offline
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And I still have my headache after a night of reading :-)

BTW Rev what religious group do you belong to?
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I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#41637 - 11/27/11 09:30 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Turner]
Bill S. Offline
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Originally Posted By: O
fundementalist => belief in literal translation of old testament


That depends on the type of fundamentalist. Christian fundamentalists claim to believe in a literal translation of the whole Bible. I think there has to be some clever selection of texts, though; because, as you observed, there is quite a lot of contradiction between the Old and New Testaments.
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#41638 - 11/27/11 10:07 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Orac]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Orac
And I still have my headache after a night of reading :-)

BTW Rev what religious group do you belong to?
The United Church of Canada.

OUR CHURCH MONTHLY, The United Church Observer, is not a churchy magazine. The articles are about real world problems.
http://www.ucobserver.org/
The United Church of Canada pages:
http://www.united-church.ca/
_________________________
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#41672 - 11/29/11 05:17 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Revlgking Offline
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PNEUMATOLOGY--the mother of modern psychology. Readers of this forum will be aware of the fact that when I started this thread, I let it be known that, since my student days, I have been deeply interested in in the study of 'pneumatology'(the study of the human spirit)--the study of the human intelligence-based power to will.

Inspired by my personal experiences helping seriously ill people, including myself and my daughter, recover from life-threatening illnesses, I have also let my hope and my opinion be known: Pneumatology ought to be studied in the same way we study all science, objectively.

WILLPOWER
If what the authors of a recent book--WILLPOWER, which I quote, below--write is true, I ask: Does this mean that my opinion and hope is now a reality?

=================================
Roy F. Baumeister And John Tierney,
National Post ∑ Nov. 29, 2011

Quote:
However you define success - a happy family, good friends, a satisfying career, robust health, financial security, the freedom to pursue your passions - it tends to be accompanied by a couple of qualities.

When psychologists isolate the personal qualities that predict "positive outcomes" in life, they consistently find two traits: intelligence and self-control. So far researchers still haven't learned how to permanently increase intelligence. But they have discovered, or at least rediscovered, how to improve self-control.

Hence this book. We think that research into willpower and self-control is psychology's best hope for contributing to human welfare. Willpower lets us change ourselves and our society in small and large ways.

As Charles Darwin wrote in The Descent of Man, "The highest possible stage in moral culture is when we recognize that we ought to control our thoughts." The Victorian notion of willpower would later fall out of favour, with some 20th-century psychologists and philosophers doubting it even existed. Even Roy Baumeister, one of this book's authors, started out as something of a skeptic.

But then he observed willpower in the laboratory: how it gives people the strength to persevere, how they lose selfcontrol as their willpower is depleted, how this mental energy is fuelled by the glucose in the body's bloodstream.

He and his collaborators discovered that willpower, like a muscle, becomes fatigued from overuse but can also be strengthened over the long term through exercise.

Since Baumeister's experiments first demonstrated the existence of willpower, it has become one of the most intensively studied topics in social science (and those experiments now rank among the most-cited research in psychology). He and colleagues around the world have found that improving willpower is the surest way to a better life.

They've come to realize that most major problems, personal and social, centre on failure of self-control: compulsive spending and borrowing, impulsive violence, underachievement in school, procrastination at work, alcohol and drug abuse, unhealthy diet, lack of exercise, chronic anxiety, explosive anger.

Poor self-control correlates with just about every kind of individual trauma: losing friends, being fired, getting divorced, winding up in prison. It can cost you the U.S. Open, as Serena Williams's tantrum in 2009 demonstrated; it can destroy your career, as adulterous politicians keep discovering.

It contributed to the epidemic of risky loans and investments that devastated the financial system, and to the shaky prospects for so many people who failed (along with their political leaders) to set aside enough money for their old age. ...
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#41674 - 11/29/11 06:06 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Bill S. Offline
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Registered: 08/20/10
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Loc: Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: Rev
Does this mean that my opinion and hope is now a reality?


You may have to wait for this sort of research in order to start convincing members of the scientific community; but I think your own experiences of life would leave you with no doubt, in terms of your own personal reality, what is real and what is not.

From the fact that I enjoy exchanges on SAGG it will be obvious that I have an interest in sientific things, I like to be able to prove things, at least to my own satisfaction, but I have to accept that I have had experiences that I have not been able to explain in any rational, scientific way. In fact, I was recently thinking of posting a couple of examples of these on this forum to see if anyone could come up with scientific explanations.
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#41682 - 11/30/11 03:07 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Turner]
Ellis Offline
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Loc: Australia
No Rev it doesn't. Willpower and self control are two different things. So are opinion and hope, with reality a close third!

Actually I am confused by the article quoted. The statement was that intelligence and self- control are indicators of success, which I agree is probably true. Then the text morphs into a discussion of self-control and willpower. Whilst I agree that self-control is in short supply nowadays I cannot agree that it is the same as intelligence. Neither is willpower.

Have I missed something?


Edited by Ellis (11/30/11 03:10 AM)
Edit Reason: clarity

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#41683 - 11/30/11 03:28 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: Ellis
No Rev it doesn't....
Have I missed something?
Perhaps you did miss something.
But you WILL get it, if you WIll so to do. smile laugh Apparently, the authors do write about things that can be quantified as is required in science. Did you take note of this?
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#41704 - 11/30/11 11:16 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Turner]
Bill S. Offline
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Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Hereís the first request for a scientific explanation.

Some 40+ years ago I was driving at about 3am on my second consecutive night without sleep. Strangely I didnít feel tired, I seemed wide awake and everything appeared normal until I entered an area of street lighting. I then began to hallucinate. Nothing strange about that, in view of my lack of sleep, but this is the odd bit.

Walking towards me, on my side of the road, on the pavement (sidewalk) I saw two young women. I saw them very clearly, even now I could tell you what they were wearing. They were talking and laughing; when they were just a few feet away, the one on the outside turned her ankle on the curb and lunged out in front of the car. I braked hard, but there was no one there. Later, I discovered that a young woman had been killed on that exact spot, in precisely the circumstances I saw. She was hit by an Army vehicle towards the end of WW2.

No mysticism! Letís have a scientific explanation.
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#41722 - 12/02/11 05:42 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Bill S.]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Hereís the first request for a scientific explanation.......No mysticism! Letís have a scientific explanation.
BS, I am sure you have you heard about crystal radios, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_radio

I have a tape of a radio program I heard, years ago, on the CBC--our national radio system.

On the program, serious scientists gave the following explanation for ghosts. Certain places around us are natural recording devices and operate on the same principles as do crystal radios. They can actually record sounds and picture, broadcast and re-broadcast such events, especially emotion-filled and dramatic ones.

Ghost-filled events are not like live broadcasts with people who are capable of connecting with us and having a conversation with us in the present moment; they are re-broadcasts, replays, like of old movies.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#41723 - 12/02/11 06:03 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Turner]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
BTW, this thread no has over 3,000,000 hits.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#41730 - 12/02/11 12:30 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Turner]
Bill S. Offline
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Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Quote:
BS, I am sure you have you heard about crystal radios, right?


Crystal radios, with "cat's whiskers"! As a child they fascinated me, but Iím not quite old enough to remember their being in general use. Anyway, I don't think our cat would have stood for having his whiskers screwed down. smile

The ďstone tapeĒ idea is one I have given thought to, but I suspect the majority of scientists might greet it with some eye rolling, and possibly the muttering of "crackpot".
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#41731 - 12/02/11 12:32 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Turner]
Bill S. Offline
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Registered: 08/20/10
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Loc: Essex, UK
Quote:
3,000,000 hits.


That's quite a battering!
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#41736 - 12/04/11 12:45 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Turner]
Ellis Offline
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Loc: Australia
In my opinion all of us have experienced events or maybe just little 'things' that happen without explanation. (I now realise that's why I read the posts on SAGG, I certainly don't understand a lot of them!) But I do believe that all the unexplained, 'supernatural' events that are reported will have to have an explanation, even though we do not know what it is. Although I do not think it even remotely likely, the explanation maybe that God is overseeing in everything everywhere. Or maybe it is all random chaos!

One thing that we do know is that things which once seemed like magic are now accepted as normal occurrences. Unknown things will continue to perplex us, and science will continue to search for possible answers, and some will be very surprising.

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