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#41354 - 11/07/11 09:39 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Bill S. Offline
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So the term teleportation is context related.
One context is "classical" and the other "quantum", and they are quite different.
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#41357 - 11/08/11 06:56 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Bill S.]
Orac Offline
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QM is simply putting definition around the word so we don't get into idological debates.

Sometimes the classic teleportation may be the same as the QM version depends what the person is trying to imply.

The QM version is simply moving QM information (spins) or energy from one point in 3D spacetime to another. Nothing more nothing less and you can not transfer any other information in the process to allow faster than light communication because an attempt to do so would destroy the entanglement.

See I said that like a QM zealot and teacher but I am holding a few problems back from you ... which the more astute may realize.

What happens if the transfer defies causality?
Can the teleported QM information form information in it's structure say like teleporting a book or even you with your knowledge?

The first we are reasonably happy with we have done testing to some extent (http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html).

It appears causality is guaranteed .. which is good :-)

The encoded classic information story is far from settled and this goes to the more open question is teleportation like you see on startrek therefore precluded by QM because you are moving information, that is what is in your head.

The answer is we don't know.

My gut feeling is it does not defy QM because if you move a book for example for someone to understand it they would have had to first encounter language which implies they already know your language so some degree of information already had to be at the endpoints to enable the information to mean anything.

I need to clarify this is simply my gut feeling not any sort of scientific answer.
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#41420 - 11/12/11 07:47 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Bill S. Offline
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Rev; A totally trivial question I have been meaning to ask you for ages: Do the Churches with which you are involved have a specific day of the week on which they hold gatherings etc.?
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#41425 - 11/13/11 04:38 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Revlgking Offline
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Bill S, the churches with which I have been, and am, involved act like community centres. They are open, for all kinds of social and recreational events, all week, especially evenings. Of course, regular services are held on Sundays. Seventh Day Adventists, like the Jews, worship on Saturday. Muslims worship on Friday. What about you?
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#41430 - 11/13/11 03:10 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Bill S. Offline
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I had an Uncle, in New Zealand, who was a Seventh Day Adventists, I met him only once, when I was about 13 and he visited UK. He did his best to convert me, without success. At half a world away, that was not an easy task. I had great admiration for the sincerity of his beliefs and the rigour of his practice, but it was not for me.
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#41475 - 11/15/11 09:59 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Revlgking Offline
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Bill S, since my teens--beginning with the reformed tradition in which I was raised--I have been very interested in studying the history, doctrines, polity, liturgy and practice, of all sincerely held religions worthy of being taken seriously. Generally speaking, and with and open-mind, I am also interested in the philosophy and psychology of religion.

When I say that I keep an open mind, and ask others to do the same, I do not mean that mean that we should keep them so open that our brains could fall out. In my opinion, an unexamined faith is not worth taking seriously. I do not gladly suffer hypocrisy, including my own. Neither did Jesus.

REFORMATION IS AN ONGOING PROCESS
The reformed tradition, which teaches that reformation is an ongoing process, not a completed one, is also very suspicious of any religion--Catholic, Protestant, whatever, which claims to have the once-and-for-all-time word from God.

ABOUT THE MILLERITES AND SD Adventism:
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/m10.html

Quote:
The parade of end-time prophets and messiahs has marched down through the ages to the present day. The most famous and certainly the most influential of these was Williams Miller. He was converted to Christianity in 1816 and began an intensive two year study of the Bible. At the end of his study he had formed this opinion: ''I was thus brought, in 1818, at the close of my two year study of the Scriptures, to the solemn conclusion, that in about twenty five years from that time (1818) all the affairs of our present state would be wound up'' (The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Froom, Vol. IV, p. 463).

Miller began to present his findings publicly in 1831. Based on Daniel 8-9, Miller counted 2300 years from the time Ezra was told he could return to Jerusalem to reestablish the Temple. The date of this event was calculated to be 457 B.C. Thus, 1843 became the date of Christ's return. As the appointed year grew closer, Miller specified 21 March 1843 to 21 March 1844 as his predicted climax of the age. The date was revised and set as 22 October 1844.

Failure of this event has come to be know as the ''great disappointment.'' It is estimated that the Millerites, as they came to be known, numbered nearly 50,000. Miller recorded his personal disappointment in his memoirs: ''Were I to live my life over again, with the same evidence that I then had, to be honest with God and man, I should have to do as I have done I confess my error, and acknowledge my disappointment (Memoirs of William Miller, Sylvester Bliss, p. 256).

Many Adventists, as they called themselves, left the movement. But many sought answers to the failure. Hiram Edson, one of Miller's followers, reported that he had a vision shortly after a prayer vigil. In his vision he saw Christ enter the heavenly Holy of Holies to begin purifying the heavenly sanctuary. His conclusion was that Miller was correct in his date setting but wrong about where Christ would appear. Christ was to cleanse the sanctuary in heaven, not on earth.

Another Millerite named Ellen G. White also had visions while in prayer. Her visions convinced the remaining Adventists that their movement was God's end-time remnant. She also confirmed Edson's interpretation because of a vision she had in February 1845. In time, White was proclaimed a prophetess whose revelations were held to be equal with scripture.

The question of the proper day of worship was raised by Fredrick Wheeler and Joseph Bates. Wheeler was challenged by a Seventh day Baptist to keep Saturday as the Lord's day. Bates, a retired sea captain, came to the same conclusion after a study of Sabbaterian material. Ellen G. White confirmed the seventh-day sabbath in another vision. The Seventh Day Adventist Church was a direct product of the apocalyptic teachings of William Miller. An emphasis on last days events and the belief in the soon return of Christ are cornerstones of Adventist theology.


GENERALLY SPEAKING, ALL ADVENTISTS BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS THE MESSIAH. HE WILL RETURN TO EARTH AS THE TRUE MESSIAH AND SET UP THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh-day_Adventist_Church
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#41479 - 11/16/11 06:04 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Revlgking]
Orac Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking

GENERALLY SPEAKING, ALL ADVENTISTS BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS THE MESSIAH. HE WILL RETURN TO EARTH AS THE TRUE MESSIAH AND SET UP THE KINGDOM OF GOD.


Rev can I get an explaination of "SET UP THE KINGDOM OF GOD"

Wikipedia says (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_God)

My head exploded trying to understand any of that are there really that many views on that?
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#41489 - 11/16/11 07:10 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Bill S. Offline
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I think the "Catholic interpretations" come close to what was probably the interpretation of the early Christian Church, before the failing Roman Empire did more damage by "taking over" than ever it did by persecution. The trouble comes when you look at how the precepts of that belief have been re-interpreted over the centuries.
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#41490 - 11/16/11 08:45 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Revlgking Offline
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THE KINGDOM OF GOD?
===================
The Kingdom of G.O.D. is not a place ruled by some dictator--Emperor, Pope, whatever. It is anyplace where people Generate Goodness ... where people have come together and who agree to live with one another ruled simply by the principle of the Golden Rule--that is, where people agree to serve others in the spirit of Goodness and expect others to do the same.

MY FIRST ASSIGNMENT AS A NEW MINISTER--one who serves Good
In 1953--58 years ago--my wife and I--both 23 at the time--were sent by the United Church of Canada to travel, by air, to Labrador, north of island of Newfoundland. There we found a squatter's town of 116 families in a total state of chaos. As chair of the first council I guess I was the first "mayor". Take a look at what developed:

Orac, Bill s, whoever: The community depicted in this video, below, was mostly a shack town.

http://www.comehometolabrador.ca/home/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvA9m4YNX9w#
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#41491 - 11/16/11 08:58 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Bill S.]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
I think the "Catholic interpretations" ...
I agree, Bill. To your comment I will add: The Bible-quoting Protestants simply replaced the Emperor and the Pope with a complex document, the Bible--a paper pope, one that each sect could quote and interpret to suit its purposes. All reformation must be from within the heart and demonstrated by the way we treat one another.
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#41494 - 11/17/11 03:15 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Revlgking]
Orac Offline
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Sorry I must be very stupid, I feel embarrased, I am still not getting it.

Please remember muslim is the religion I am much more familar with and a little budhist.

I am using the Catholic version as Bill S says

I get all the bits before it why people pray and then I get to here.

Quote:

Jesus continues to call all people to come together around him[40] and to spread the Kingdom of God across the entire world


What does that mean?

I mean it would be impossible for all the people to gather around someone so I take that as figurative.

But what next then he/they take over the world OR all the people in the world miraculously become christians I don't get it?

For muslims my understanding is you live you die you go to your judgement what happens next depends on how you lived your life. That all sort of makes sense to me.

From my basic understanding the budhists believe in cycle of life and cycles of everything. I sort of get it.

Christianity has got me at the moment I can't work it out. I had a friend who was a mormon and I don't get that either no matter how much he explained it to me.

I have come to the conclussion I am religious stupid because of my homelands policy towards them.
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#41495 - 11/17/11 04:11 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Turner]
Ellis Offline
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Orac said:
"For muslims my understanding is you live you die you go to your judgement what happens next depends on how you lived your life. That all sort of makes sense to me."

Basically that is the main promise of Christianity--- ie. the promise of Eternal Life, If you have been 'good' then your afterlife will be that you are eternally with God and surrounded by His love. If you have been 'bad' then you have to spend eternity without God--- in Hell. This simple belief has been much enlarged upon, and interpreted into various doctrines and sacred texts of one sort or another.

I feel that maybe what you are finding difficult to understand, Orac, is the diversity that is Christianity. There are numerous sects and divisions, each proclaiming they are the true faith. Although some Christians still adhere to the traditional doctrines of Catholicism or one of the main Protestant churches, many now have their own interpretation of their religion. This freedom is often not a choice in other religions, and it stems from the time of the Reformation when the first of many huge schisms appeared in the Christian faith.

Usually there are some common beliefs in the various doctrine. Most have a belief that God is divine, good and all-knowing. Many believe that Jesus died as a sacrifice for the forgiveness of the sins of the world. I would think that all Christians believe in some form of everlasting life after death. A lot of modern Christians do not think that Hell exists, though many still believe in some sort oF Heaven.

Another area that could cause a problem is that although Christians have the Bible as their foundation it is the New Testament that holds the story of Jesus and his teachings, not the Old Testament. Jesus is the fulfilment of the prophesies of coming of the Messiah in the Old Testament.

The divergent views regarding belief is seen as a positive by most Christians now, though once it was the source of many wars and bloodshed!

I had not realised how confusing it all is until I started to type what I thought would be a simple post! I've left out heaps-- but I'm sure Rev will correct it! I hope you continue your search Orac.


Edited by Ellis (11/17/11 06:10 AM)
Edit Reason: typo as usual

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#41497 - 11/17/11 04:26 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Ellis]
Orac Offline
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Thank you for saying that Ellis I thought it was just me.

I guess when you grow up with stuff like this you sort of work your way through it.

For me I am struggling, when I was given asylum in Australia it seemed laid back about religion I had no problems and much of this didn't come up. Having come out to America now I am truely struggling and I seem to offend people without intending ... there is like this untold code I am supposed to know but don't.

I am going to write a book on my experiences perhaps as a sorry to all the people I have unintendingly offended.
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#41517 - 11/17/11 08:21 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Orac]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Orac
Thank you for saying that Ellis I thought it was just me....
For me I am struggling, when I was given asylum in Australia it seemed laid back about religion I had no problems and much of this didn't come up.
Having come out to America now I am truly struggling and I seem to offend people without intending ... there is like this untold code I am supposed to know but don't.

I am going to write a book on my experiences perhaps as a sorry (apology) to all the people I have unintentionally offended.
Perhaps we--all who write here--can find an editor willing to take the material here in the NQS section of SAGG and put it together in the form of a book, eh?
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#41518 - 11/17/11 09:38 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Bill S. Offline
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Ellis, that was a great explanation! I think you describe yourself as an atheist; you must have come to that viewpoint via a thorough understanding of basic Christian ideas. Just to “nit-pick” before Rev does. smile The Reformation was not the “first of many huge schisms appeared in the Christian faith”. That dubious “honour” probably has to go to the departure of the Eastern Orthodox Churches, who fell out with the Catholic Church over the “filioque” clause in the Nicene Creed.
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#41519 - 11/17/11 10:17 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Bill S. Offline
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Originally Posted By: O
I mean it would be impossible for all the people to gather around someone so I take that as figurative.

But what next then he/they take over the world OR all the people in the world miraculously become christians I don't get it?


As a scientist you probably like to take things literally, but you are right about this being figurative.

As far as the second bit is concerned, I think if you take Rev’s interpretation of the kingdom of God (good), and imagine that that was the sort of thing that they were asked to spread, you will be close to the truth. The trouble is that later generations seem to have interpreted this as meaning that they should impose their beliefs on others, and bash those who didn’t conform.
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#41520 - 11/17/11 10:22 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Bill S. Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rev
Perhaps we--all who write here--can find an editor willing to take the material here in the NQS section of SAGG and put it together in the form of a book, eh?


As a title may I suggest: "Encyclopaedia Fox Populi". smile
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#41522 - 11/18/11 02:38 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Bill S.]
Orac Offline
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Why I had picked up the expression islam has as one of it's key components al-Qiyamah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qiyamah) basically the end of the world.

As it has been explained to me the interpretation in wiki is very accurate

- Destruction/flattening of the earth
- Creation of a new earth
- Resurrection of the dead
- Gathering of people
- Each held to account fo actions
- You get sent to hell/heaven

Belief in it is compulsory.

I always struggled with Islam because of it, buddhism with it's infinite cycles was more appealing (not sure if that word is right .. sorry).

The way it read I wondered if this was another version of al-Qiyamah or did it mean god came and made the world better and cured it etc.

Taoism for example has mankind eventually becoming "enlightened" meaning we all become aware of the three jewels compassion, moderation, and humility.

So the other way of reading it was GOD came down and he spread "enlightenment" for want of a better word.


Edited by Orac (11/18/11 02:39 AM)
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#41525 - 11/18/11 05:44 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Ellis Offline
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You are of course correct Bill S. I should have described the Reformation as the most influential or divisive of the schisms, which it was, as for the first time worshippers who broke away were able not only to directly address their god without a priestly intermediary but also they were able to use their own language not that of the church (Latin). These were two of the most important changes in the history of religious dogma as it helped to destroy much of the influence of church power. Mind you the Nicene Creed WAS fairly important too!

Orac- As Bill S says I actually do not believe in God. Unlike you I have never struggled with this decision. I knew as a child I did not believe in the supernatural in any form. I did however have an unusually solid grounding in the doctrine of the (protestant) christian faith, and since then I have enjoyed researching other religions. You may find that your quest ends in a similar way. Enlightenment has many possibilities and knowledge can lead to unforeseen destinations.

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#41527 - 11/18/11 05:47 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Ellis Offline
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Bill S - i have to say I m expecting a Rev-ly "nit-pick" any day soon!

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