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#41263 - 10/31/11 10:47 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Orac]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Orac
Hmm, I think you judge me a very bad person then smile
Not so! Judging people is something I always try to avoid. Always keep in mind: We speak different languages. This difference can be a problem! Agreed? For example, you say
Quote:
Religion plays no real part in my life, and I am absolutely terrible at art and musical pursuits.
Keep in mind that, in English the word 'art' means more than just drawing, painting and playing music. It can also be used to refer to anything any one does. In English, writing can be called an art. We speak of the "art of conversation" etc. The doing and application of physics can even be called an art.

Orac, now do you understand me? You say--and to promote communication I will edit what you wrote
Quote:
The biggest issues, for me, are usually compassion and morality, which, to some degree, religious people have a position spelt (spelled) out for them. For me, I have to work it out.

Sometimes, I feel it would be good on these complex issues if someone said here is what you should believe, then I also recoil at that because as I know from my political life that has several very sharp drawbacks as well wink
Me? I too, recoil at the idea of telling people what to believe.

This is also true in all freedom-loving parts of the world--North America, the British Commonwealth of nations, France, Italy, Germany, Austria, Japan, (since 1945) the Netherlands, Scandinavia, Spain--name other areas which I may have overlooked....

What do we know about China, Russia, Africa, the nations of Islam, etc.? I make no claim that I am fully informed.
====================================================

Orac, IMO, how you live your life is between you, your conscience and the laws of the land. All I will say is: Do your best according to your conscinece! Walk in the light and information that you have.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#41266 - 11/01/11 03:13 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ellis
Rev---3,000,000 posts later and I still do not understand how being religious could possibly mean not acknowledging godishness (!) with worship.
Ellis, first understand the following:

For me, HOW actively, day by day, we live out our lives--in community, with good will and compassion towards the world and all who live on earth, or elsewhere--is more important to me than any set of doctrines anyone may have about some unprovable god-figure.

Ellis, you say
Quote:
I think you are trying to have your cake and eat it too!
Of course I am! And why not? Why resist the abundance available to all open to receive?

Living in G.O.D--that which is abundant goodness, opportunity, and delight--infinite and eternal--how can there possibly be any lack?
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#41272 - 11/01/11 06:43 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
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So Rev, do you ever give thanks for the bounty you enjoy, or do you indulge in hedonistic delight at the abundance before you?

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#41275 - 11/01/11 01:58 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Ellis]
Orac Offline
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Hopefully I can ask this safely here because I am to scared to ask my American friends.

What is the meaning and significance of halloween because I googled it without much help they went on more about costumes and party.

And everyone acts like I am supposed to know all about it.
.
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#41277 - 11/01/11 03:26 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
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It's a boon for candy companies and a pox for dentists.

It's an excuse to have fun.

Few Americans know or want to know anything about its origins which can be read on Wikipedia.

When I was a kid, Halloween was "A Big Deal." We went from house to house and neighborhood to neighborhood. Usually, we would have to return home 2 or 3 times in a night, dump the haul, and return for the next batch.

Nowadays, I don't see many trick-or-treaters (the kids who knock on your door in costume). For the past few years, I buy two bags of chocolates and I'm lucky if I get 10 visitors. For the first time in my life, I did not buy candy for Halloween yesterday.

I was going to stop by the observatory last night instead, but I got halfway there and realized it was too overcast. So I went home, turned out the lights, and spent two hours on the exercise bike.

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#41279 - 11/01/11 04:38 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Bill S. Offline
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Various historians have traced Halloween to a number of pre-Christian sources. My own belief is that its origin is in the Celtic feast of Samhain (pronounced soween, with the stress on the last syllable. Well, thatís the Celts for you). It was the festival to mark the transition to winter.

The Christians took it over, along with many other festivals, and called it Halloween, meaning the eve of All Hallows, or All Souls Day. It became the day on which the Faithful were exhorted to pray for the souls of the departed. This link to the dead explains the association with ghosts, which was later extended to include witches etc.
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#41280 - 11/01/11 04:48 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Bill S. Offline
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Loc: Essex, UK
BTW, it is often said that trick-or-treat is an American invention, indead, the veiled "threat" in the trick part may be, but the origin is probably in the fact that poor people in Britain and Ireland would visit the houses of the more wealthy offering to pray for the souls of their dead in return for food. I believe there was a similar tradition in Scotland which involved dressing in costume.
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There never was nothing.

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#41283 - 11/01/11 08:00 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ellis
So Rev, do you ever give thanks for the bounty you enjoy, or do you indulge in hedonistic delight at the abundance before you?
A lawyer would say to any client of his asked this kind of question: You do not have to answer leading questions! Beware! My honourable opponent is simply trying to trap you. smile

But seriously, in my writing here is what I intend to communicate to all readers, especially those in pain, suffering, or any kind of distress:The attitude of gratitude is always a valuable one to have, no matter what the circumstances. Why? Because it helps us get rid of our resistance to what Life has to offer, and it opens up the channels to good will, knowledge and power we all have to all possibilities.
_________________________
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#41285 - 11/01/11 11:56 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Bill S. Offline
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Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Does the "attitude of gratitude" have directionality?
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There never was nothing.

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#41286 - 11/02/11 12:10 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Turner]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
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Loc: Australia
Nov Ist is All Saint's Day, a day to pray to all the saints who don't have a special day! And since there are only 365(6)x 2 days (ie ladies and gentlemen saints) available there are lots of forgotten ones. All Hallow's E'en, is the original name for the evening (e'en) before All Hallows (Saints) Day. "Hallows" means "holy".

Traditionally Hallowe'en was spelled with the apostrophe and had its own traditions and games. There was a risque flirting with the Bad Side, and the souls of the dead were supposed to leave their graves at Midnight and wander (scary eh?) This was a hangover from Celtic myth but similar celebrations happen in most christian countries.

In the US the whole emphasis is different and is becoming more like the Feast of the Dead as celebrated in Mexico and Central America.


************************************************************************************
Sorry Rev... I was a teacher not a lawyer and spent my life asking leading questions! I merely was going to ask whom you thank for your life in which contentment and service seem to play a large part in your happiness.

I too am happy, and I thank my community, family and friends for their human companionship, love and sympathy. I am in furious agreement that good-will, knowledge and power are the keys to happiness and possibilities. I also happen to think they are innate qualities that reside in all of us, and are not god-given.


Edited by Ellis (11/02/11 12:12 AM)

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#41287 - 11/02/11 02:38 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
Orac Offline
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Okay I don't feel as silly as I was it's a little bit vague even within you guys.

I don't think I have felt so uncomfortable since a friend of mine convinced me to go to church with him.

Between people coming up and hugging me, spotaneously bursting into euphoric chanting, smoke bombs from the priest and having absolutely no idea what the hell was expected of me and why are you all looking at me .... only took 10 physch sessions to recover and I am dammed if I can get rid of this twitching of my eye :-)


Edited by Orac (11/02/11 02:39 AM)
_________________________
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#41305 - 11/02/11 10:15 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Bill S.]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Does the "attitude of gratitude" have directionality?
In my mind, no! The attitude of gratitude is just an attitude--one that I work on having and maintaining moment by moment.

At the recent Canadian version of thanksgiving celebrated by our family and guests, I offered the following toast--not thanks to the god atheists call an illusion:

I say: Let's thank our fathers and our mothers; thank our sisters and our brothers, cousins, uncles, aunts and others. In memory, or in spirit, all are welcome to join us. And if there is a god, he/she is also welcome. Amen!
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#41308 - 11/03/11 03:37 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
GOOD RELIGION IS NEVER NARROW. IT IS ALL ABOUT BEING INCLUSIVE, HUMANE AND TRULY HUMAN
About his new movie, THE WAY, Martin sheen makes it plain that it has a spiritual component, but not about religion in the narrow sense of the word. "Unfortunately" he says, "so much of religion, religiosity and dogma separates us. But it is our humanity that brings us together. If we become aware of our humanity, that is spirituality."

Makes sense to me.

_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#41331 - 11/04/11 03:19 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Rev opined:

"If we become aware of our humanity, that is spirituality."

Actually I don't think it is, unless you believe that humans have a spirit, or a soul.

I think that awareness of our humanity leads to becoming a humanist.

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#41334 - 11/04/11 05:45 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Ellis, you quote the words of Martin Sheen, who, BTW, calls himself an open-minded Catholic Christian.

Me? Like the animal kingdom--strongly influenced by instincts and feelings--to which I belong, I have a body and I Lhave a mind.

IMO, IAMNESS AND SPIRITUALITY ARE ONE AND THE SAME
However, in addition to the above. As a human, humane and humanist kind of being I like to think that I am a spirit--one who seeks to be more and more consciously and rationally aware of what I know, what I do not know and what I would like to know. My spirit also helps me do and be creatively interested in the arts.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#41335 - 11/04/11 07:21 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Revlgking]
Orac Offline
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Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
For you Rev this one was sent to me to ask for my opinion on it's QM correctness.

This sort of what I was saying about how QM is easing some of the tension with religion. I do not advocate this view of QM or believe it but I can see why it appeals.

It is reasonably technical but from a QM perspective it is within what I would call a reasonable view although the abstraction of many things such as consciousness, ESP etc are outside the discipline of science and I can not comment on correctness.

Anyhow it may interest you if it's not too technical, sorry I have no idea what you science level is like

http://syzygyastro.hubpages.com/hub/Entanglement-Missing-Mass-Interference-and-Individuality
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#41337 - 11/04/11 07:15 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
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Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
ABOUT THE QUANTUM EFFECT. How real are the following claims?
Orac, to raise questions and to provoke thought I have selected some quotes from the link you posted: http://syzygyastro.hubpages.com/hub/Entanglement-Missing-Mass-Interference-and-Individuality as follows:

At some point, using this quantum effect, we may well be able to teleport, induce invisibility, and project seeming solid objects through each other. We may also be able to explore regions of the cosmos now out of reach, like the interior of the Sun or inside an event horizon.

There is a reported experiment called the Philadelphia Experiment that can be neither confirmed nor denied as far as the author is concerned. Yet, the implications of the experiment and the descriptions thereof, suggest that some of the foregoing has already been accomplished by the US military in the 1940ís....

THE QUANTUM EFFECT AND THE LASER
The laser of choice is the atom laser, which can be constructed using an atomic Bose-Einstein condensate. When atoms are cooled to near absolute zero, they loose their individuality and become a super fluid....

...Immediate uses are for microscopes that can examine reality on the atomic and molecular level with a clarity that has been impossible up to now. We will be able to "see" quantum processes with such a laser. A direct view of DNA and active chemistry is feasible among other things.

Entanglement was first conceived in theory and then observed with carefully constructed experiments by A. Aspect and Gisen later on.

The basic idea was to split a pion into two polarized photons moving in opposite directions. The momentum of one was measured while the position of the other was taken. It was found that whatever happened to one photon was instantaneously reflected on the other, no matter how far apart they were.

This simultaneous measure of momentum and position is a violation of the uncertainty principle and Einsteinís concept of relativistic limits. It demonstrates that there is instantaneous connection between seemingly separate entities, no matter how far apart....

The cosmos was born out of an initial fireball that set the initial differentials so necessary for the evolution of all following complex processes. In addition, the ongoing feedback between the virtual and manifest conditions of the cosmos keeps the whole process in a constant flux of change. This change incorporates ever increasing orders of complexity until we arrive at you and me, who are intimately connected in the entangled sense, but have a strong sense of individuality and separateness in our day to day lives.

ASTROLOGY?

Where astrology enters the picture is insofar as the entanglement of states of all physical and energetic entities in the cosmos upon all others. In other words, there is a distinct connection between all the planets, their energies and positions upon each and every one of us in a unique way. Each unique combination also contributes to each of our unique characteristics.

When the planetary relationships change, so do individuals born in that cosmic environment, differ from others who were born in a different cosmic environment. Hence individuality arises through the change in planetary relationships.

CONSCIOUSNESS

The mystery of individualization in the cosmos that is also entangled at the fundamental level, does not however, address the question of individual consciousness.

From the point of quantum individualization in the non-entangled state, we must then take another step to describe how individual consciousness arises out of the primordial complex quantum matrix. What can be said at this point is that consciousness, like anything else in the cosmos, arises from the quantum.

This must by implication, suggest that the fundamental units that build and change the cosmos on a continual basis, are conscious. That consciousness can only exist where observation can occur with something else. Here we have a type of quantum relativity insofar as that one thing can only be described in terms of something else.

To have consciousness, a sense of separateness in the non-entangled state must exist as a precondition.

Therefore, in the entangled state, there also exists a kind of collective conscious (some would say collective unconscious), which acts as a kind of reference for the rest. This then describes why things can get downright weird. This is especially true under extreme conditions.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#41342 - 11/05/11 09:27 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Revlgking]
Orac Offline
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Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Okay there is a bit of everything in that

Science facts
Science myths and legends
Non science areas

I will break it apart for you

(Science fact .. all actually done except two solid into each other but I have no reason to doubt it couldn't be done)
"At some point, using this quantum effect, we may well be able to teleport, induce invisibility,and project seeming solid objects through each other. We may also be able to explore regions of the cosmos now out of reach, like the interior of the Sun or inside an event horizon."

(Science myth and legend .. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Experiment)
There is a reported experiment called the Philadelphia Experiment that can be neither confirmed nor denied as far as the author is concerned. Yet, the implications of the experiment and the descriptions thereof, suggest that some of the foregoing has already been accomplished by the US military in the 1940ís....


(Science fact ... All of that detail is completely true, I made thread in science called quantum biology which details much more of this detail in science section)

THE QUANTUM EFFECT AND THE LASER
The laser of choice is the atom laser, which can be constructed using an atomic Bose-Einstein condensate. When atoms are cooled to near absolute zero, they loose their individuality and become a super fluid....

...Immediate uses are for microscopes that can examine reality on the atomic and molecular level with a clarity that has been impossible up to now. We will be able to "see" quantum processes with such a laser. A direct view of DNA and active chemistry is feasible among other things.

Entanglement was first conceived in theory and then observed with carefully constructed experiments by A. Aspect and Gisen later on.

The basic idea was to split a pion into two polarized photons moving in opposite directions. The momentum of one was measured while the position of the other was taken. It was found that whatever happened to one photon was instantaneously reflected on the other, no matter how far apart they were.

This simultaneous measure of momentum and position is a violation of the uncertainty principle and Einsteinís concept of relativistic limits. It demonstrates that there is instantaneous connection between seemingly separate entities, no matter how far apart....


(Non science ... ambigious I could interpret that a number of ways)
The cosmos was born out of an initial fireball that set the initial differentials so necessary for the evolution of all following complex processes. In addition, the ongoing feedback between the virtual and manifest conditions of the cosmos keeps the whole process in a constant flux of change. This change incorporates ever increasing orders of complexity until we arrive at you and me, who are intimately connected in the entangled sense, but have a strong sense of individuality and separateness in our day to day lives.


(Non science ... abstracting QM it has never been tested, I doubt all of this at every level)

ASTROLOGY?

Where astrology enters the picture is insofar as the entanglement of states of all physical and energetic entities in the cosmos upon all others. In other words, there is a distinct connection between all the planets, their energies and positions upon each and every one of us in a unique way. Each unique combination also contributes to each of our unique characteristics.

When the planetary relationships change, so do individuals born in that cosmic environment, differ from others who were born in a different cosmic environment. Hence individuality arises through the change in planetary relationships.


(Non science ... well not testable science you wont let me play with peoples brains to test. There are certainly QM effects in brains are they vital I suspect we will not know for many years until we completely understand QM)

To have consciousness, a sense of separateness in the non-entangled state must exist as a precondition.

Therefore, in the entangled state, there also exists a kind of collective conscious (some would say collective unconscious), which acts as a kind of reference for the rest. This then describes why things can get downright weird. This is especially true under extreme conditions.



Edited by Orac (11/05/11 09:29 AM)
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#41345 - 11/05/11 05:13 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Turner]
Bill S. Offline
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Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: O
(Science fact .. all actually done except two solid into each other but I have no reason to doubt it couldn't be done)
"At some point, using this quantum effect, we may well be able to teleport..."


Is the term teleportation, like infinite, context related?
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There never was nothing.

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#41349 - 11/07/11 01:58 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Bill S.]
Orac Offline
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Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Nope because there are too many Bill S's in the world we have again had to add definition in.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_teleportation)
=>Quantum teleportation is unrelated to the common term teleportation

We had done particles in 2005 but the final thing to transport was energy and only completed last year (http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/24759/)


Edited by Orac (11/07/11 01:59 AM)
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