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paul Offline OP
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Quote:
4000 Ns means "Four thousand Newton seconds"


so thats applying a force of 4000N for 1 second.

4000Ns * 1 second = 4000Ns impulse

and

4000N * 1 second = 4000N





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4000Ns is 4000Ns

it can be either impulse or momentum since they are both in the same units. (in the same way that ft can mean both length or altitude)

4000Ns * 1 second = 4000Ns^2 which is not impulse

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paul Offline OP
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OK

so N*seconds = N

Quote:
4000N * 1 second = 4000N


80N * 50 seconds = 4000N

Quote:
4000Ns * 1 second = 4000Ns^2 which is not impulse


Quote:
the force that accelerated each of the 100 kg masses
was +80N x 1000 meters = +4000N


Quote:
No. That quantity is 80,000Nm. Nm is not force. Actually it's energy.


Quote:
LOL

your right , I did mess that up.

it is +80N applied for 50 seconds.

+80N each second for 50 seconds over a distance of 1000 meters

+80N x 50 seconds = +4000N


Quote:
4000Ns, not 4000N. This is the impulse applied to the pipe, not the force. It's also the momentum added to it.


Quote:
OK

so N*seconds = N


Quote:
+80N x 50 seconds = +4000N


what comes around goes around!

I have my second opinion now.

if a force of 4000N is applied for 1 second
you would have applied a total force of
4000N for that 1 second.

4000N * 1 second = 4000N

the total force doesnt change just because you apply it.

but you can apply the total force over several seconds

2000N * 2 seconds = 4000N

80N * 50 seconds = 4000N

1N * 4000 seconds = 4000N

4000N is the total amount of force required to accelerate a 100kg mass
to an acceleration rate of .8 m/s/s
over a distance of 1000 meters
in 50 seconds

the 100kg mass will then have a velocity of 40 m/s
its momentum is
100kg * 40m/s = 4000Ns

1N is the total amount of force required to accelerate a 1kg mass
to an acceleration rate of 1 m/s/s
over a distance of .5 meters
in 1 second

the 1kg mass will then have a velocity of 1 m/s
its momentum is
1kg * 1m/s = 1Ns




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Originally Posted By: paul
4000N is the total amount of force required to accelerate a 100kg mass
to an acceleration rate of .8 m/s/s
over a distance of 1000 meters
in 50 seconds


You understand that a constant force causes a constant acceleration, right?

As soon as you apply 80N to the 100kg mass, it will immediately be accelerating at 0.8m/s/s. It won't increase to 0.9m/s/s if you wait longer. Of course in real life you can't apply a force instantly, but you can do it pretty suddenly and get 0.8m/s/s almost immediately.

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Quote:
OK

so N*seconds = N



Are you quoting me? Why didn't you look at the context to see if I was talking about your system or mine?

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paul Offline OP
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Quote:
You understand that a constant force causes a constant acceleration, right?

As soon as you apply 80N to the 100kg mass, it will immediately be accelerating at 0.8m/s/s.


Yes , I realize that because that is exactly what it says.

1N is the force required to accelerate a 1kg mass to 1m/s/s
in 1 second.

Quote:
it will immediately be accelerating at 0.8m/s/s.


its not immediately or instant , thats why they use 1 second as the time period required for the mass to reach the acceleration rate of 1 m/s/s !!
if it was an instant acceleration then a 1kg mass could be moved a distance of 1 meter in 1 second using a force of 1N

but a 1kg mass will only move a distance of .5 meters in 1 second using a force of 1N.

1N is the force required to accelerate a 1kg mass to 1m/s/s
in 1 second.


Quote:
It won't increase to 0.9m/s/s if you wait longer.


exactly

thats why it says

1N is the force required to accelerate a 1kg mass to 1m/s/s
in 1 second.

an acceleration rate will only change if more or less force is applied to an object.

and a constant force of 1N will constantly accelerate a 1kg mass at a rate of 1m/s/s

thats why it says

1N is the force required to accelerate a 1kg mass to 1m/s/s
in 1 second.


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paul Offline OP
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Quote:

OK

so N*seconds = N

Are you quoting me?


nope , just stating a fact.

so N*seconds = N because seconds are built into the units of force Newtons N

else

f/s^2 = ma


Quote:
80N is the force required to accelerate a 100kg mass to .8m/s/s
in 1 second.


80N * 1 second = 80N

Quote:
4000N is the force required to accelerate a 100kg mass to a velocity of 40 m/s in 50 seconds


80N * 50 seconds = 4000N

for each 100kg mass that is accelerated at an acceleration rate of .8m/s/s for a time period of 50 seconds

the total force that is applied / consumed / expended is 4000N

because there is already 1 second^2 in each newton.

so the force applied wouldnt be written as
4000Ns it would be written as 4000N thats why they put the 1 second^2 in the definition of a newton.

1 N = 1 kgm/s2

constant force means you constantly apply the force , its not a 1 time force applied for 1 second.

so you multiply the force applied times the time the force is applied.

kg = sick
meter = blush
second= mad

1 newton = 1 sick blush / mad per mad

if I apply a push of 1 sick over a distance of 1 blush in 1 mad per mad

I have applied 1kg-m/s^2 force for a distance of 1 meter for a time of 1 second per second

1kg-m/s^2 = 1N

if I apply a push of 80 sick over a distance of 1 blush in 1 mad per mad

I have applied 80kg-m/s^2 force for a distance of 1 meter for a time of 1 second per second

80kg-m/s^2 = 80N

if I apply a push of 4000 sick over a distance of 1 blush in 1 mad per mad

I have applied 4000kg-m/s^2 force for a distance of 1 meter for a time of 1 second per second

4000kg-m/s^2 = 4000N


if I apply a push of 80 sick over a distance of 1000 blush in 50mad per 50mad

I have applied 4000kg-1000 meters/50 seconds per 50 seconds force for a distance of 1000 meters for a time of 50 seconds per 50 seconds

1kg-1m/1s^2 = 1N
so
4000kg-1000m/50s^2 = 4000N

dick = laugh
jane = cry
force units = 80kg-m/s^2 = 80N = whistle

dick can push jane with a force of 80N

jane has a mass of 100kg

laugh dick can accelerate cry jane to an acceleration rate of .8 m/s/s
in 1 second.

see dick run

dick must use up 1 force unit to push jane every second that he pushes jane.

how many force units must dick have to push jane for 50 seconds?

dick uses up alot of force units pushing jane for 50 seconds.

can you count the number of force units that dick uses up pushing jane in 50 seconds?

whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle
whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle
whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle
whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle
whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle whistle

did dick use up 50 force units pushing jane for 50 seconds?

yes dick used up 50 force units pushing jane for 50 seconds.

since 1 force unit = 80N what is the total number of N that dick used up pushing jane?

80N * 50 force units = 4000N

if 1 force unit gets used up each second can you find the total number of N that dick used up by using seconds.

80N * 50 seconds = 4000N

Ok children I know that your brains must be tired by now
so put your books under your desk and lay your heads on your desk and take a nap.

those of you who are already asleep just remain sleeping.



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Originally Posted By: paul
1N is the force required to accelerate a 1kg mass to 1m/s/s
in 1 second.

You don't have to wait 1 second. Even at 0.1s it's still accelerating at 1m/s/s. It's confusing to add "in 1 second" at the end. This would also be correct:

"1N is the force required to accelerate a 1kg mass to 1m/s/s in 0.1 seconds."


Quote:

Quote:
it will immediately be accelerating at 0.8m/s/s.

its not immediately or instant , thats why they use 1 second as the time period required for the mass to reach the acceleration rate of 1 m/s/s !!

Wow! No wonder our discussions never go anywhere. You actually don't know that a constant force causes a constant acceleration? That's what F=ma says. As soon as you apply F=50N to a 1kg object, you get a=50m/s/s. There's no "wait around for 1 second till it gets moving".

Quote:

and a constant force of 1N will constantly accelerate a 1kg mass at a rate of 1m/s/s

Now you're contradicting the above. Clearly this must be a misuse of words that's leading to miscommunication.


Question:

If you drop a 2kg object so it's in freefall under Earth's gravity (use g=9.8 m/s/s). How much time does it take from when you let go till when it's accelerating at 9.8m/s/s ?

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Originally Posted By: paul
[quote]
OK

so N*seconds = N


Just like this?

m/s * seconds = m/s

because seconds are built into the units of velocity meters/second m/s


I didn't keep reading because it looks like more of the same.

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paul Offline OP
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its not immediately or instant , thats why they use 1 second as the time period required for the mass to reach the acceleration rate of 1 m/s/s !!
if it was an instant acceleration then a 1kg mass could be moved a distance of 1 meter in 1 second using a force of 1N

Quote:
You don't have to wait 1 second. Even at 0.1s it's still accelerating at 1m/s/s.


ok kallog how long is 1 meters then?

and how long is 1 second then?

if 1N can imediately accelerate a 1kg mass to 1m/s/s

then why does the mass not move 1 meter in that 1 second?


f=ma

1N=1kg*1m/s/s
iv = initial velocity
fv = final velocity


velocity = iv + a*t
1m/s = 0m/s + (1m/s/s*1second)
velocity = 1m/s

avg velocity = .5 * (iv + fv)
.5 m/s = .5*(0m/s+1m/s)
avg velocity = .5 m/s

displacement = avg vel * time
.5 m = .5m/s * 1 second
displacement = .5 meters


its obvious that the mass does not move 1 meter
in 1 second so its acceleration rate might be 1m/s/s
at 1 second and after 1 second but not before 1 second.

thats why they use m/s/s

else

they would say that the definition of a newton unit of force would be.

1N is the force required to accelerate a 1kg mass instantly and continously at a acceleration rate of 1 meter per second.

even though the above would not happen in the real world
if the above were true
1N would cause a 1kg mass to move a distance of 1 meter in 1 second.

but not in reality.

instantly means as soon as the force is applied the mass would move 1 entire meter in 1 second.

but it only moves .5 meters because its not instant acceleration and that is why they use

1 meter per second^2







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paul Offline OP
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Quote:
just like this?

m/s * seconds = m/s

because seconds are built into the units of velocity meters/second m/s


m/s * seconds does not give a result in m/s

meters per second * seconds = displacement

40m/s * 10 seconds = 400 meters

apples and oranges kallog





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Quote:
I didn't keep reading because it looks like more of the same.


you should spend more time reading , and also thinking about what you read.


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Originally Posted By: paul
if 1N can imediately accelerate a 1kg mass to 1m/s/s

then why does the mass not move 1 meter in that 1 second?


Wow, this is a record breaking low for you. Did you really think about that? You actually have no idea what the general concept of acceleration is. You're confusing even the magnitude of acceleration with speed.

The answer to your question is that it takes 1s for the object's speed to reach 1m/s. So during most of that 1s, the velocity was < 1m/s, so it couldn't travel a full 1m in that time.

1m/s/s acceleration of an object starting at 0m/s velocity means:
time = 0s, v=0m/s, a=1m/s/s
time = 0.5s, v=0.5m/s, a=1m/s/s
time = 1s, v=1m/s, a=1m/s/s
time = 2s, v=2m/s, a=1m/s/s
time = 3s, v=3m/s, a=1m/s/s
etc..

0.8m/s/s acceleration of an object starting at 0m/s velocity means:
time = 0s, v=0m/s, a=0.8m/s/s
time = 0.5s, v=0.4m/s, a=0.8m/s/s
time = 1s, v=0.8m/s, a=0.8m/s/s
time = 2s, v=1.6m/s, a=0.8m/s/s
time = 3s, v=2.4m/s, a=0.8m/s/s
etc..

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Originally Posted By: paul
m/s * seconds does not give a result in m/s


I used exactly the same reason you used to say

40N * 10s = 400N
which of course is the same as
40 kg.m/s/s * 10s = 400kg.m/s/s

Just like my
40 m/s * 10s = 400 m/s

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paul Offline OP
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Quote:
so it couldn't travel a full 1m in that time.


but it could if it could be accelerated instantly.

at a acceleration rate of 1m/s/s

1 second d = 1m , v=1m/s , a = 1m/s/s
2 second d = 4m , v=2m/s , a = 1m/s/s
3 second d = 9m , v=3m/s , a = 1m/s/s
4 second d = 16m , v=4m/s , a = 1m/s/s
5 second d = 25m , v=5m/s , a = 1m/s/s
6 second d = 36m , v=6m/s , a = 1m/s/s
7 second d = 49m , v=7m/s , a = 1m/s/s
8 second d = 64m , v=8m/s , a = 1m/s/s
9 second d = 81m , v=9m/s , a = 1m/s/s

you would in effect remove the need to use a constant of .5 to find average velocity.

you would find average velocity the following way

av = 1*(vi+vf)
vs the current
av = .5*(vi+vf)

therefore

displacement would be found the following way

d=v*t
vs the current
d=av*t


instant acceleration would mean that the mass would travel 1 full meter in 1 second , but because there is no such thing as instant acceleration it also isnt possible.


Quote:
In physics, acceleration is the rate of change of velocity with time.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceleration

so with instant acceleration the rate of change of velocity would be 1m/s/s this way the mass would have traveled 1 meter in 1 second.


so with an instant acceleration of 1m/s each second
you would accelerate a 1kg mass a distance of 1 meter in 1 second.


thats really very clear , but maybe not to you.









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Quote:
Just like my
40 m/s * 10s = 400 m/s


40 m/s * 10 seconds = 400 m/s makes no sense if you are delivering your result in m/s

your result should be displacement not velocity.

400 meters is the correct answer to your equation.

velocity * time = displacement

not velocity

Im beginning to wonder if you people ever took the time to
consider that your thought patterns have been compromised.

you are not thinking logically

and I find it to be










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paul Offline OP
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Quote:
I used exactly the same reason you used to say

40N * 10s = 400N
which of course is the same as
40 kg.m/s/s * 10s = 400kg.m/s/s


even your above shows that

80N * 50 seconds = 4000N is correct

because

40 kg.m/s/s = 40N
400kg.m/s/s = 400N

just like

80 kg.m/s/s = 80N

and therefore

80N * 50 seconds = 4000N is correct






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paul Offline OP
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when I wrote

Quote:
the force that accelerated each of the 100 kg masses
was +80N x 1000 meters = +4000N


you replied with

Quote:
No. That quantity is 80,000Nm. Nm is not force. Actually it's energy.


that would be if you applied a force of 80N for 1000 meters
I admit I made that mistake , but it shows that you do understand that 80N applied for 1000 meters would be
80,000Nm

and 80,000Nm = 80,000 Joule = 80 kWs (killoWatts per second)

the force was applied for 50 seconds so by dividing the 80kWs
by the 50 seconds
we get 1.6 kWs each second that the force was applied to the mass causing the mass to move the 1000 meters in 50 seconds.

so the total amount of energy consumed each second in moving the mass was.

1.6 kWs

so now we know the energy cost to accelerate the mass , if the mass didnt gain speed through the turn then the mass could be used to generate energy as it is being decelerated in a equal amount to the amount that was consumed by accelerating the mass initialy.

but the mass gains speed through the turn , therefore the mass can generate more energy by being decelerated than the amount of energy that its acceleration consumed.

and because the deceleration of the mass will cause even more force to be applied to the pipe the pipe will be accelerated even faster by the mass as the mass is being decelerated than it was as the mass was being accelerated.

reactionless propulsion with a twist of free energy

shaken not stirred

this way we can not only travel to our planets
in our solar system , we can also travel to
other solar systems and their planets and back and more.

but for now I would like to name its prototype

RSV for Remote Space Vehicle

we cant accelerate very fast and it can accelerate very fast
it could be used to intercept an asteroid that is on a near earth course and change its course.

we can do this and all that is stopping us is ignorance.




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Originally Posted By: paul
Quote:
I used exactly the same reason you used to say


even your above shows that

80N * 50 seconds = 4000N is correct


I'm using your way Paul! I know both examples are wrong.

I copied your way for the 1st equation, then I used the same way for the 2nd equation, and got a clearly wrong answer.

Tell me why your way works for kg.m/s/s but not for m/s. Clearly both units "have seconds included". That was your reason for using kg.m/s/s (N) instead of kg.m/s (Ns). So it should also be your reason for using m/s instead of m.

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Originally Posted By: paul
but it could if it could be accelerated instantly.

at a acceleration rate of 1m/s/s

1 second d = 1m , v=1m/s , a = 1m/s/s


You omitted 0.5s. Why?

Why can't you see that the velocity takes a whole second to get up to 1m/s? It doesn't do it instantly. So during the whole 1st second the velocity is always less than 1m/s.

The rest of your post is trying to derive nonsense from this wrong starting point, as usual.

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