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Wow! Chalk up one success! I've made a few attempts to introduce the term "hitch-hiker" in this context. This is the first time anyone has picked it up.

BTW, Whatever Australians do with bananas; does anyone know what they do with "pigs"?


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Bill S--- Re: pigs and Australia---- Do we want to know?

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I am sorry to rain on your parades but as a QM zealot I need to clear up some things

1.) Was anyone actually observing said banana's because that may change the outcome.

2.) Do we know the position or the velocity of said bananas because clearly we can't know both

3.) Can we establish that said banana's are not infact entangled


If we can establish all of that I can tell you whether or not the said bananas are infact here or at some other random location in the universe.

And to Bill S the Australian females generally marry those Australian "pigs".

Last edited by Orac; 10/12/11 08:21 AM.

I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
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Oh! BANANA'S---- indicating possession (or possessed bananas)---, OR--- Did you mean more than one banana--- as in one banana, two bananas?

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paul Offline OP
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one banana two bananas three bananas four
four bananas make a bunch and so do many more !
tra la la la la la la
tra la la la la la la

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uxlmFrDL5I


3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
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Originally Posted By: Ellis
Re: pigs and Australia---- Do we want to know?


They keep their washing on the line; same as everyone else.

Originally Posted By: Orac
Australian females generally marry those Australian "pigs".


With Rev passing racist remarks, and you being sexist, I'm beginning to wonder what's happening to this forum.


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I missed Orac's nasty remark. Sorry I was sexist--- but I've actually missed how I transgressed in that way. No excuse I know. I was misled by the possessive banana's.

Rev and I are approaching ancient (him more than me - eeek now I'm being ageist!) Our age should confer some excuse or reason ---- maybe?

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Originally Posted By: paul
one banana two bananas three bananas four
four bananas make a bunch and so do many more !
tra la la la la la la
tra la la la la la la

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uxlmFrDL5I


I am sorry paul you can't count the banana's it's impossible it's covered by the "Indistinguishability Postulate" of QM and its perfectly clear crazy

Originally Posted By: http://www.sorites.org/Issue_06/item3.htm

Conclusion

We have suggested here that quantum objects are vague objects and, further, that how that vagueness is understood depends on the metaphysical package adopted with regard to their individuality. If quantum objects are taken to be individuals, as Lowe considers them, then the vagueness arises because of the existence of relations which do not supervene on monadic properties of the relata; it is because of such relations that we cannot tell which particle is which in an entangled state. How one represents such relations, both metaphysically and formally, is an interesting question and one possibility, with regard to the latter at least, is to employ quaset theory; we leave this as a suggestion for future elaboration.

The alternative package characterises quanta as non-individuals, where this is understood in terms of a lack of identity. The appropriate formal framework is then that of quasi-set theory, which provides a semantics for `opaque' predicates as indicated above. There are still some interesting questions to be addressed here, such as how it is that one can refer to objects for which one cannot even say that identity holds. On this point we take our lead from Barcan Marcus who, in discussion with Kripke and Quine, distinguished `object-reference' from `thing-reference', where the former is given in terms of quantification, and the latter is bound up with identity (Barcan Marcus 1993, p. 25).<24>Foot note 2_7 We may thus `refer' to objects for which identity cannot be said to hold, although how we do this in the quantum context is again an issue which requires further discussion (see French and Krause forthcoming).


See perfectly clear you can't count them.

We are all individuals ..... I'm not!

Last edited by Orac; 10/13/11 08:36 AM.

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Four bananas, five bananas, six bananas, seven,
Do you think we'll ever know if Rev believes in "Heaven"?
Eight bananas, nine bananas, that seems quite a lot;
It started out as algebra, but now it's gone to pot!


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Since you got GOD and bananas in the same post lets go there

Did you ever see the Intelligent Design video that banana's were proof of GOD's intelligent design. Apparently noone told him they were genetically modified by man :-)

Funny as hell

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4yBvvGi_2A


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Be reasonable! This is a thread about algebra.

1 hand + 1 banana + 1 idiot = intelligent design.

That's a straightforward mathematical proof.


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"Algebraic Thinking in Adult Education"
National Institute for Literacy, Algebraic Thinking in Adult Education, Washington, DC 20006
http://lincs.ed.gov/publications/pdf/algebra_paper_2010V.pdf

The authors put it bluntly, "Mathematics proficiency is needed to satisfy formal academic requirements for advancement as well as to meet the genuine skill demands of home and work."

Before he retired, the previous principal of the HS where I tutor asked the dean of the local engineering school what he most needed from the HS students. His response: "A mastery of algebra. We can teach them calculus and the rest, but we need them to know algebra when they come through the door."

More from the NIL report:

"Even among those who have finished college and are starting their careers, there is a sobering lack of practical mathematical ability...In fact, 30 percent of students earning two-year degrees and 20 percent of those earning four-year degrees have only basic quantitative literacy skills. These students were unable to complete such tasks as calculating the total cost of office supplies or estimating whether their car has enough gas left to make it to the next gas station."

Here's another view:
http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=101298505

Very briefly, he thinks algebra is necessary to use spreadsheets to their full capacity and to do modeling.

Devlin has a very nice blog at:
http://profkeithdevlin.wordpress.com/

I agree with his opinion. Some people think you can just give kids a calculator and that solves the problem. That's silly. I often find kids with fancy, very expensive calculators who 1) don't know how to use them correctly - even for simple functions, and 2) don't know how to tell if they have something approaching a correct answer.

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paul Offline OP
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Thats pretty good bill S

every word rhymes along with the song.


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paul Offline OP
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Quote:
Some people think you can just give kids a calculator and that solves the problem. That's silly. I often find kids with fancy, very expensive calculators who 1) don't know how to use them correctly - even for simple functions, and 2) don't know how to tell if they have something approaching a correct answer.


common sense dictates that properly using calculators would be the more desirable thing to teach students.

1) when you graduate from all of your schooling , you will not be allowed to use a paper and pencil to do calculations.

2) calculators are never wrong as long as you enter the correct data into them.

3) a combination of how to properly use a calculator and how to properly use equations would deliver more efficient and productive work.

but lets face the facts , theres money in filling a students day with useless courses that he will never use in a job or in his life.

when you think about it , its not the students fault that he cant perform math , its the teaching establishment and the methods and tools that the teachers have and are allowed to teach with that are at fault.

these methods and tools ensure that students will learn at a slower pace , thereby increasing the time period that the students must attend a course of study in order for him or her to receive a diploma.

lets carry this one step further.

if certain useless courses were done away with or not dragged out to infinity over years.

students could be being taught useful courses such as physics
in fact by the time a student leaves high school he could already have 4 years towards his engineering degree.




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The problem is that people don't understand enough to apply the equations. I use paper and pencil (or whiteboard which amounts to the same thing) all the time. In real problems, the actual equations need to be derived from given information and the rules of algebra.

Any student who actually understands algebra can easily use the calculator correctly. The problem is that people - all people DO - make mistakes and LOTS of them. This is why one needs to know if an answer makes general sense.

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I can see your point, Paul, and I agree with quite a lot of what you say. I don't know about the US, but I know the education system in UK needs a good shake-up. However, as one who had a poor grounding in basic maths, who has had to try to make up the ground later, I can say with certainty that there is nothing like having good foundations on which to build; without them it's hard going.

I have contributed a lot of silly nonsense to this thread, but that's just because I'm that sort of person, not because I think the basic discussion is unimportant.


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Quote:
I can say with certainty that there is nothing like having good foundations on which to build; without them it's hard going.


if the foundation isnt solid anything built on it also isnt solid.

one thing I remember from my grade school days was the repetition.
I dont think that repetition is the key.

I think that as TFF stated the ability to work an equation is a extremely important part of math.

instead of repeatedly making students work equations they should be given word problem situations and they must decide which equation that they should use to solve the particular problem situation.

this would build math skills to a greater extent and the student would walk away with an ability to solve everyday math problems.

just sitting in a class and working 100 adding and subtraction and multiplication and division equations
wont really help as much as a repetitious need to decide which equation to use.

not to mention the boredom that causes many students who learn quickly to loose interest quickly.

solving problems is fun!

the repetitious solving of equations is not.











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I agree that word problems are necessary.

Drills are also necessary for some things, although I think this can sometimes be taught through games.

It's not sufficient to learn formulas; one has to know how to combine formulas and manipulate them in other ways.

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Originally Posted By: TFF
real bananas are generally not the same standard length.


Nor are feet!!!


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Kilowatts used per hour

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