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#40639 - 10/05/11 12:16 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
your right , Im sorry I was so wrong...

4 ft^4 is only 256 square feet
so according to you and that web site
2ft^2 * 2ft^2 = 256 ft^4

WOW

LOL LOL LOL

its obvious that your trickery is not even close to an answer that is even slightly reasonable , just like your math is not even slightly reasonable.

can anyone say idiot?

I can...

guess what genius 4^4 = 256

4^1 = 4
4^2 = 16
4^3 = 64
4^4 = 256


now enter in the sqr of 4 * itself

sqr (4) * sqr(4) = 4



_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#40640 - 10/05/11 12:24 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: paul]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
Originally Posted By: paul
your right , Im sorry I was so wrong...

4 ft^4 is only 256 ft^4

The program doesn't give that result.
Did you cut-n-paste your expressions into the web page?
What were the answers?


Originally Posted By: paul

sqr (4) * sqr(4) = 4

Correct.

The functional notation sqr() is not standard and is therefore ambiguous. Sometimes it means square root and some times it means square. However, Wolfram uses it to mean square root ... and will give the answer you expect.

Do you think *I* programmed Wolfram Alpha?

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#40641 - 10/05/11 12:27 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
The program doesn't give that result.


click on where it says result 4ft^4

it then shows you 256 ft^4

LOL

now poke 256 ft^4 in and see what that means because
he still shows it squared.

LOL

it has now become

4.29510^9 ft^4 (feet to the fourth)

idiots breed idiots I suppose.



_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#40642 - 10/05/11 12:34 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
Do you think *I* programmed Wolfram Alpha?


no , I dont.

I think you just dont want to admit that *YOUR* wrong.

LOL
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#40643 - 10/05/11 12:37 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
Did you cut-n-paste your expressions into the web page?
What were the answers?


I didnt cut-n-paste I typed them in.
2 ft^2 * 2 ft^2 =

I even tried 2 ft squared * 2 ft squared =

and got the same 4 ft^4 result below !!!


Quote:
4 ft^4 (feet to the fourth)


4 anythings ^4 = 256 anythings

also it doesnt equal 256 anythings ^4

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#40644 - 10/05/11 12:43 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
Mathematica that many scientists use.


Im not sure if he uses the same brilliance in his program as he uses in his web site but to be on the safe - logical - side
Im going to plan all of my trips in the future to avoid any tall buildings and bridges and things that could break if a scientist or engineer was involved in its design , thanks for the tip.

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#40645 - 10/05/11 12:49 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: paul]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
Originally Posted By: paul
Quote:
Did you cut-n-paste your expressions into the web page?
What were the answers?


I didnt cut-n-paste I typed them in.
2 ft^2 * 2 ft^2 =

I even tried 2 ft squared * 2 ft squared =

and got the same 4 ft^4 result below !!!


Quote:
4 ft^4 (feet to the fourth)


4 anythings ^4 = 256 anythings

also it doesnt equal 256 anythings ^4




Well. At least you did it. This is the same answer that ANY scientist, engineer, or mathematician on the planet would give you. The problem with doing things your way is this -
you end up with things being equal that can't possibly actually BE equal AND for sufficiently complex problems you will get inconsistencies.

The advantage of using the standard way is that it is ENTIRELY consistent.

Originally Posted By: paul

4 anythings ^4 = 256 anythings

No. The fourth power only applies to the "anythings," not the first 4.

(4 anythings) ^4 = 256 anythings^4

4 anythings^4 = 4 (anythings^4)

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#40646 - 10/05/11 12:49 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
The functional notation sqr() is not standard and is therefore ambiguous. Sometimes it means square root and some times it means square. However, Wolfram uses it to mean square root ... and will give the answer you expect.


I was wondering if he only programmed it to use a squared number such as 4 which has a sqr of 2 to perform multiplication.

thats why I entered sqr4 * sqr4

and thats the only time I got a correct answer.

4 not 4^2
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#40647 - 10/05/11 12:54 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: paul]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
Sometimes it means square root and some times it means square.


I've never heard that one before.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#40648 - 10/05/11 12:58 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: paul]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
I thought about this , its not him that is at fault here.

its teachers and books that failed to properly teach students the way to write equations.

and to provide proper notation methods and symbols.

ie ... theres no symbol for square !!

if he would have been taught properly his program would reflect it.

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#40649 - 10/05/11 01:05 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136


above I posted the link to the interpretation of
4ft^4

are you saying that 256 ft^4 is the correct answer?

to

2ft^2 * 2ft^2 =

if so then why stop at 4

lets make math even more stupider than it is becomming so that even more time is wasted teaching crap like this to students as they are trying their best to learn math.

why not make it 4 ft^400000

instead of making it 4ft^2 which is what the freakin correct answer would be.

ie...4 ft squared

wouldnt that be much more difficult to understand thereby ensuring that we will need more and more teachers to fill the void that this crap would create...

also they would need supercomputers to run the calculations on..

ah...it would be good for the economy wouldnt it , but not our economy.



_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#40650 - 10/05/11 01:26 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: paul]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
Originally Posted By: paul


above I posted the link to the interpretation of
4ft^4


Actually, that link is to the expression: (4 ft)^4
which is different from: 4 ft^4

When you use the words: "4 feet to the fourth"
it's ambiguous - there are two possible meanings. It picked one of them and it happened to be the first one instead of the second one.

Originally Posted By: paul

are you saying that 256 ft^4 is the correct answer?
to
2ft^2 * 2ft^2 =



No. If you cut and paste "2ft^2 * 2ft^2" it gives the same result I gave which is 4ft^4.

You wrote: if so then why stop at 4
Why stop "what" at 4?

Originally Posted By: paul

lets make math even more stupider than it is becomming so that even more time is wasted teaching crap like this to students as they are trying their best to learn math.

It's not stupid just because you don't understand the reason for it. Kallog mentioned "dimensional analysis" a while back. That's a basic science concept. You can't get answers that make any sense at all in the real world if you don't keep the dimensions on both sides of the equation the same.


Originally Posted By: paul

why not make it 4 ft^400000



I have no idea how you conclude this. This stuff would be so much easier if you tried to understand it BEFORE you criticize it.

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#40651 - 10/05/11 01:29 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
Actually, that link is to the expression: (4 ft)^4
which is different from: 4 ft^4


I guess his web site links must be incorrect then because I clicked on his link then pasted the address.

Quote:
If you cut and paste "2ft^2 * 2ft^2" it gives the same result I gave which is 4ft^4.


and both your result is crap and his result is crap.

because 4ft^4 = 256 ft

dimension or not the answer 4ft^4 is wrong.

the correct answer is 4ft^2 which is 16 feet

you idiots can think of it otherwise if you choose but
please dont build anything that could injure normal people.

I believe this concludes my discussion with you.

but you have fun with all the different ways you have found to come up with wrong answers.

I know you will probably reply to this , but I am through replying to your replies.

not because I think your right , because I know your wrong.


_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#40652 - 10/05/11 01:51 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: paul]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
Originally Posted By: paul

the correct answer is 4ft^2 which is 16 feet

you idiots can think of it otherwise if you choose but
please dont build anything that could injure normal people.


The problem is that if you ignored that (as in calculated higher moments) it is virtually certain that your calculation would bring the bridge down.

You can check this on google's calculator, too, but it keeps converting to meters when you type in feet. But you can cut n paste: 2m^2 * 2m^2 and you get 4m^4. (Same math ... just using meters instead of feet.)
http://www.google.com/intl/en/help/features.html#calculator

So you think google's in on the conspiracy?

Works the same way with the calculator at: http://web2.0calc.com/

Just cut n paste 2m^2 * 2m^2 to get 4m^4.

Are they in on it too?

EVERY SINGLE SCIENTIST, MATHEMATICIAN, AND ENGINEER ON THE ENTIRE PLANET DOES MATH THIS WAY ... including the ones you cite. You think we're all idiots ... and you, the guy who knows the absolute least and won't even make the effort to understand it are the only one who gets it?


Edited by TheFallibleFiend (10/05/11 01:59 AM)

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#40653 - 10/05/11 02:07 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: paul]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
Actually ... I don't know if they use higher order moments in building bridges (maybe they do ... I don't know). I retract that. The actual point is sufficient without exaggeration.

If you aren't keeping your dimensions consistent on both sides of an equation then none of your equalities are actual equalities. It's one of the first checks that every first year engineering student learns.

In this case, it's mostly a matter of convention. (But the "logic" is that the math has to be consistent ... which it won't be in your method.)

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#40654 - 10/05/11 03:19 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: paul
Quote:
You can already say 3*3=3^2

and I can say 2ft * 2ft = 2ft^2 (two foot squared)


How many times have I told you why this is wrong?

The ^2 symbol applies to what's immediately before it.

That's how it's defined.

It's not logic, it's just an arbitrary convention of how math symbols are written. If you don't follow the convention then don't use the same symbols, because nobody will understand you.

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#40655 - 10/05/11 03:22 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: paul
2anythings*2anythings = 4anythings


2x * 2x = 4x?

Are you sure?

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#40656 - 10/05/11 03:29 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend
You can check this on google's calculator, too,


Sorry, Google's calculator is contaminated by an employee who learnt the wrong way from a book. You can see for yourself that it uses units of m^2/s^2 for the "speed of light squared". A speed should be m/s of course!!! This isn't Google's fault, just one of its workers.

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#40658 - 10/05/11 02:09 PM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
Are you sure?


I suppose I should rephrase that.

2 anythings * 2 anything = 4 anythings

as long as the anything are the same units.

the answer would also be delivered in anything units.


_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#40659 - 10/05/11 02:17 PM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
The ^2 symbol applies to what's immediately before it.


that makes sense.

so would you agree that

2bananas * 2bananas = 4bananas^2 ( Four Bananas Squared )

is wrong.


the problem in the above is that he used a result
that requires squaring.

4 bananas squared = 16 bananas

if he was going to use a number that requires squaring he should have used numbers that require squaring

such as 2(squared)ft * 2(squared)ft = 4(squared)ft which is equal to 16(square)ft
4*4=16
2^2 = 4
4^4 = 16


bananas = bananas anyway you just keep the units

so when he wrote

2bananas * 2bananas = 4bananas^2 ( Four Bananas Squared )
his equation was wrong if he was going to deliver a result using (bananas squared)

so if anything the correct answer should be 4 sq bananas if bananas were a unit of measurement.

Quote:
The ^2 symbol applies to what's immediately before it.


and since theres no symbol for square.

the above doesnt even work.

because
4^2ft = 16 ft
and
4ft^2 = 16 ft


I look at it and I see that the 4 needs to be squared.
I have been brainwashed to believe that the ^ symbol means
that you multiply the number directly before it by itself
times the number directly after the ^ even if there are units between the ^ and the number before it.

we need a symbol for (Square) or our answers will be wrong.

we cant use ^2 to represent both square and squared

or we just write it out in words as in the above.

ie..

2bananas * 2bananas = 4 Bananas

2sq bananas * 2sq bananas = 4 sq bananas

2 bananas squared * 2 bananas squared = 4 bananas squared

Quote:
(But the "logic" is that the math has to be consistent ... which it won't be in your method.)


which is not as far off as 256 bananas^4 which is equal to
1,099,511,627,776 bananas

I dont know about the many disturbing ways that people who need to apply math during the course of their daily routine or their job use to determine a correct answer using some type of calculation or program that performs calculations for them because they didnt bother to learn how to perform calculations in school the proper way as they should have.

but I do know that materials have stress limits and if you add in a 20% over stress limit and your structure becomes over stressed by 21% then your structure can fail.

and when calculating the weight of concrete that is to be poured on each floor using crap to do your calculations for you will most likely cause the building to fall under the stress of itself.

I personaly would prefer to do my own calculations or at least program my own calculator.

that wolfram and google should not be used by engineers who build buildings they should learn math.

or learn how to program their own programs to do the correct math for them.

and as far as algebra is concerned ,I have taken algebra thats why I never use it.

I never have found it to be usefull at any point in my life.

I truly believe it is a waste of brain space and valuable student time.

often I think of it as filler in a book that needs filler
to complete a certain number of pages that the editor requires.

it serves absolutely no other purpose than filler.

If I had a chance to vote against algebra being taught in our schools , I would.

this would free up valuable student time and then students could be taught things that they could actually use vs algebra.

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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