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Originally Posted By: paul

^4^ = 4 squared


The ^ is only to write easily on this forum which doesn't have a 2 button. Of course it's not the actual symbol anybody writes math with on paper or in books!

.
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Quote:
Come on, can you at least try?

4^2 = 16
4^2 ft = 16ft
4 ft^2 = ?
4^2 ft^2 = ?
(4ft)^2 = ?

What do you expect I'd put for the others?


4 ft^2 = 2 ft * 2 ft = 4 ft^2
4^2 ft^2 = ?
(4ft)^2 = ?


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Quote:
which doesn't have a 2 button


then what is the square button?

what should we use for a square?

4 square is not equal to 4 squared


2 ft * 2 ft = 4 ft^2

in the above if you would have had a symbol to use that
describes a square would you have used it instead of using the symbol that describes a number that is to be multiplied by itself?

ie...

4 ( the symbol for square ) ft
or
4 ft( the symbol for square )




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Originally Posted By: paul

4^2 = ? = four square
4^2 ft = ? = four square feet
4 ft^2 = ? = four foot squared
4^2 ft^2 = four square foot squared
(4ft)^2 = ? = four foot squared


Actually that's not far off. Except you randomly mixed up "square" and "squared" making it undecipherable.

4^2 = four squared
4^2 ft = four squared feet [not four square feet]
4 ft^2 = four foot squared [OK]
4^2 ft^2 = four squared foot squared
(4ft)^2 = four squared foot squared

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Originally Posted By: paul

what should we use for a square?
4 square is not equal to 4 squared


Or we could stop using words like "foot" and "squared". They're always vulnerable to impreciseness or misunderstanding.

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Originally Posted By: paul

in the above if you would have had a symbol to use that
describes a square would you have used it instead of using the symbol that describes a number that is to be multiplied by itself?


What on earth is a "square" if it's not the multiplication of a number by itself????

OK it can also be the multiplication of any other expression by itself. Such as x^2 or ft^2

But it's the same meaning! ft^2 is the same as square foot or foot squared. It's what you get when you multiply ft by ft, such as:

3ft*4ft = 3*4*ft*ft = 12ft^2

Last edited by kallog; 10/03/11 06:05 PM.
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Quote:
Or we could stop using words like "foot" and "squared". They're always vulnerable to impreciseness or misunderstanding.


I think It would be better to have a symbol to use , look at all the confussion it causes.


ie...

how would you write 4 square meters?

and

how would you write 4 meters squared?

using only numbers and symbols and units

no words allowed !!!

previously you used

4ft^2 for (four foot squared)

so what would you do differently for four square foot?





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Originally Posted By: paul
I think It would be better to have a symbol to use , look at all the confussion it causes.

I agree.


ie...

Quote:

how would you write 4 sq meters? [4m2]
how would you write 4 meters squared? [Not sure what you mean by this (words!), could be 4m2 or 16m2 ]



Quote:

previously you used
4ft^2 for (four foot squared)
so what would you do differently for four square foot? [again unclear, either 42ft or 4ft2 ]


Last edited by kallog; 10/03/11 06:09 PM.
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Quote:
how would you write 4 meters squared? [Not sure what you mean by this (words!), could be 4m2 or 16m2 ]


exactly my point...

4m^2 = 4m * 4m = 16m

but

4 square meters

is only 4 sq meters

a single square meter is 1 meter square

1m * 1m = 1m^2

so 4 of the 1m^2 = 4 sq meters

and if you write

4m^2 for 16 meters
and
4m^2 for 4 meters

you have 2 different meanings.












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Originally Posted By: paul
4m^2 = 4m * 4m = 16m


There's no confusion if you do it the correct way. I've told you countless times. Do you not know what I'm saying or do you not want to look it up? The whole complicated system for all units of any quantities is just one simple rule:

Treat units like variables

That's all it is. That allows you to work with any units without getting confused. You don't need to try and decide if seconds are already included in m/s/s or whatever.

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Quote:
3ft*4ft = 3*4*ft*ft = 12ft^2


above you see the problem in communication

I know that 12ft^2 = 12 ft * 12 ft = 144 ft

so all of a sudden 3 ft * 4 ft = 144 ft


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Originally Posted By: paul

I know that 12ft^2 = 12 ft * 12 ft = 144 ft

Why are you multiplying 12 by itself? There's no squared symbol on the 12, it doesn't get squared. Also, why are you ignoring one of the ft? There are two, but you dropped one arbitrarily.

It's not 12^2 ft. That would be 144 ft
It's 12ft^2. It's a different quantity.

Treat units like variables

Also you need to use PEMDAS whenever you're doing math. You didn't use it correctly above.

Last edited by kallog; 10/03/11 06:33 PM.
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Quote:

It's not 12^2 ft. That would be 144 ft
It's 12ft^2. It's a different quantity.


just for clarity could you put the two in words so that
I can better understand how they are pronounced.
yet you say they have different quantities.

12^2 ft = ?

12ft^2 = ?

the ^2 must have different meanings because the two
above have the same symbol in them.

and using the symbol as it is commonly used the following
is true.

12 squared ft
is exactly the same as
12 feet squared

ie...

the only thing above that can be multiplied by itself is the number 12

try to multiply ft*ft what you always get is ft !!
now try (ft*ft*ft*ft) / ft^2 * (ft-ft-ft) = ft
try any combination you always get ft

guess what ft hasnt got a numeric value !!!

so remove ft and you have

12 squared
and
12 squared

each of the above = 144







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Originally Posted By: kallog
Originally Posted By: paul

I know that 12ft^2 = 12 ft * 12 ft = 144 ft


... PEMDAS ...


PEMDAS is part of the obvious conspiracy among all the world's existing engineers, scientists, teachers, and mathematicians.

Some people think "logic" is any idea that happens to come into their heads.

Anyway, I'm off to tutor a couple kids in pre-calc.

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bye


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Quote:
Treat units like variables


units do not change so they cannot vary thus they cannot be variables.

meters does not morph into something other than meters.

therefore you can multiply , add , subtract or whatever you want to a unit and it never changes.

meters will always be meters , to sudggest something different is ignorant.


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Originally Posted By: paul
Quote:
Treat units like variables


units do not change so they cannot vary thus they cannot be variables.

You already treat numbers like variables, 3 doesn't change but you still square it the same as you'd square x. Come on Paul, why don't you focus on the issue instead of looking for word tricks?

Quote:

meters does not morph into something other than meters.

1m = 100cm
If you deny that then end of thread.
See how 1 is not the same as 100, but with the units included, the two sides of the equation are (undeniably) equal?


Quote:

therefore you can multiply , add , subtract or whatever you want to a unit and it never changes.

That's the basic mistake you can't seem to let go of. If units can't be operated on, why on earth do you think we have things like:

12 ft^2
15 psi (pounds / in^2)
20 ft-lb (20 ft-lb is not the same as 20lb, ask any mechanic)
20 Nm
40 m/s (surely the same as 40m.s or 40m)
etc..

Don't you see that these units aren't just made up because they sound like words, they have a reason.

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Originally Posted By: paul

the only thing above that can be multiplied by itself is the number 12

try to multiply ft*ft what you always get is ft !!


Finally you acknowledge that ft^2 means ft*ft!! Right?

12 ft^2
Clearly the 12 is not being squared (PEMDAS, look it up). You say ft^2 = ft, so your answer is really
12 ft
not
144 ft


To check you know PEMDAS, make sure you agree to these:
2 * 4^2 = 32
(2*4)^2 = 64

Last edited by kallog; 10/04/11 04:17 AM.
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Quote:
Finally you acknowledge that ft^2 means ft*ft!! Right?


wrong

ft^2 must have a number in front of it to be something.

ft^2 is nothing but units and symbols that have no value.

its exactly like saying

nothing^2 = nothing and being correct.

Quote:
To check you know PEMDAS


I write correct equations.

you and TFF dont.

Quote:
12 ft^2
Clearly the 12 is not being squared


its clear to me because of the ^2 , because I know what 12 ft^2 (twelve foot squared ) means.

plus if the 12 wasnt to be squared then why was it included into the 12 ft^2

why not just put
12 ft?

when TFF wrote

2bananas * 2 bananas = 4bananas^2 ( FOUR BANANAS SQUARED)

what do you think he really meant?

after all he did clearly WRITE IT OUT when he wrote
( FOUR BANANAS SQUARED )
to describe what his answer meant.

what do the words ( FOUR BANANAS SQUARED) mean to you?


















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Originally Posted By: paul

ft^2 is nothing but units and symbols that have no value.

People use ft^2 all the time. They also use s^2, and you use it too to describe acceleration. It's not meaningless. a ft^2 is the area of a square with 1ft side lengths.

ft is not a unit of area. If you have a 1000ft apartment, you have to decide which distance is 1000ft. Maybe it's the length, or the perimeter, or something else. But it's not the area.


Quote:

its clear to me because of the ^2 , because I know what 12 ft^2 (twelve foot squared ) means.

You actually will get ripped off if you try to by some carpet or an apartment or whatever. Every other person thinks 12ft^2 means something different to what you think it means. The confusion you talked about in the timber shop won't occur in the real world because nobody else thinks 12ft^2 is 144ft.


Quote:

2bananas * 2 bananas = 4bananas^2 ( FOUR BANANAS SQUARED)

what do you think he really meant?


Apply PEMDAS and you will know what it means to me.




Do you agree to these:
2 * 4^2 = 32
(2*4)^2 = 64

Last edited by kallog; 10/04/11 08:32 AM.
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