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#40466 - 09/30/11 07:27 PM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: paul]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
Originally Posted By: paul
Im smart, ,bla,bla,bla,

No. The point is that you were wrong that I didn't do my homework.

Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend

2 bananas * 2 = 4 bananas.
Originally Posted By: paul

that is correct



Thank you!

Originally Posted By: paul

Originally Posted By: thefalliblefiend

2 bananas * 2 bananas = 4 bananas^2

incorrect

No. You don't understand it. That does not make it incorrect.

Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend

1 N <> 1 Ns

Originally Posted By: paul

[not applicable]

ENTIRELY APPLICABLE! It's the simplified version of what you maintained in a post above.


Originally Posted By: thefalliblefiend

If you can't understand or at least accept this simple thing, any discussion with kallog or anyone else is wasted.

Originally Posted By: paul

I wouldnt say that , because it is yourself and kallog who seem incable of discussing physics due to a lack of basic logic.


My straight As in every math class from 4th grade through calculus (as well as physics) says I do understand. I won't mention the statics and mechanics where we did problems just like the ones you're talking about - and much more complicated. What you don't understand is that you're not just disagreeing with Kallog and me. You're disagreeing with every mathematician, engineer, and scientist on the planet.

Originally Posted By: thefalliblefiend

Let's try something even simpler ...
What is 2x * 2x?

Originally Posted By: paul

2x * 2x = 4x



I say it's 4x^2. But your answer is good. It's testable. Let's assume you are correct. What happens if, for example, x=3? Plug in 3 to your equation and see if you get the same thing on both sides.

Originally Posted By: paul


... image of grid omitted ...

in the image above its both clear and logical that
5 x 5 = 25


Correct as far as it goes, but 5x5 has NO dimensions. To include dimensions, let s mean 'square.'
Then we have 5s * 5 = 25s ...
in this case, the 5s means five squares (columns across a row), but the other 5 is five rows (of 5s in each row).

It's true I could always do to refresh my math skills. I do refresh my skills continually, but I could always do more. As I said, I use math nearly every single day of my life to solve real-world problems.

I *highly* recommend you look at the site http://projecteuler.net . You might find some of the problems interesting.

I know this seems incredible to you. But look at that problem above on 2x * 2x. If we can resolve this, then maybe we get around this impasse.

Top
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#40469 - 10/01/11 01:16 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
No. You don't understand it. That does not make it incorrect.


2 bananas * 2 bananas = 4 bananas^2
I say the below is true
2 bananas * 2 bananas = 4 square bananas

then that would mean that if you wanted to cover your
living room floor with carpet you would use the above equation.

say the dimensions of your living room floor is.

2 ft * 2 ft = 4 ft^2 = 4 ft squared
it isnt 4 square ft
its 4 ft squared
correct?

its the exact same equation and result as your banana equation.
all I did was exchange the units of bananas with units of ft

2 bananas * 2 bananas = 4 bananas^2
2 ft * 2 ft = 4 ft^2

am I correct in assuming that you think the above is correct?

Quote:
What happens if, for example, x=3?


we were not using x as a number

x described units of a number

like 2 bananas

or 2 feet

or 2 Newtons

Quote:

I know this seems incredible to you. But look at that problem above on 2x * 2x. If we can resolve this, then maybe we get around this impasse.


in other words as long as I can say that you were right then we can continue correct?

thats the way purchased science works , not real science.

square feet
http://www.onlineconversion.com/forum/forum_1048966525.htm


Quote:
Answer: 2 bananas * 2 bananas = 4 bananas^2 (4 bananas squared)


its 4 square bananas not 4 bananas squared.





_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#40470 - 10/01/11 01:41 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
heres another teacher that doesnt even know the difference
between square feet and feet squared...

its really sad , our students are relying on teachers that dont even know the simplest of basic area calculation.

http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/58411.html

Quote:
A student asked me this question and I don't know how to respond.

What is the difference between 2 square feet and 2 feet square?

I have tried looking in old math books but have not been able to come
up with a good answer. Thank you for helping.


reply


"2 feet square" refers to a square that is 2 feet on a side, that is,
2 feet by 2 feet.

"2 square feet" is a measure of area. It can refer to any shape (a
rectangle 1 foot by 2 feet, for instance).

The area of a 2-foot square is 4 square feet (2 feet * 2 feet).


so 2ft * 2ft = 4 sq ft
not 4 ft^2

4 ft^2 = 16 sq ft


_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#40472 - 10/01/11 01:57 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend

1) Why use any of the formulas since they were derived by people he thinks are incompetent at math?

In a previous thread on this topic we avoided the use of momentum at all. That was because the law of conservation of momentum immediately disproves the whole idea, so that law is useless for showing that it works. It seems to be more acceptable now, but Paul's clearly avoiding it anyway. It think that's fine, and quite a challenge to cut out something you normally depend on and have to fend for yourself. But the problem became too complex to solve in a way we can both understand, which seems to be what's happening again.

Quote:

2) You guys are wasting time talking about your examples when there is a much more fundamental disagreement. That's

Yes, but it's boring to go back to step 1. Sometimes when we do I think we've got agreement, then it runs far off into total-disagreement-land too quickly to catch.

Quote:

3a) HOWEVER, when I had *my* issues, I didn't say that everyone else was wrong. Instead I pored over the book, worked problems, consulted other books, interrogated the teachers. I asked, "Why DO they think about it that way?"

Yea, you have to work it out yourself to be satisfied. Other people can give you ideas, but you won't blindly accept what they say when you already feel something's inconsistent. I try not to just tell facts to Paul because I know he won't blindly accept things either. The trouble is Paul's in an argument, he can't lose face by changing his mind and agreeing with me. So why would he put effort into trying to achieve that?

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#40473 - 10/01/11 02:14 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
I try not to just tell facts to Paul because I know he won't blindly accept things either. The trouble is Paul's in an argument, he can't lose face by changing his mind and agreeing with me. So why would he put effort into trying to achieve that?


kallog , if you tell me something that is true then I wont dissagree , the trouble is that you dont do that very often.

you take things way out of context in order to achieve your goals , even if it means the complete disregard of the simplest of logic.

like the following

Quote:
Yes, if someone parks their car on a bridge, the weight force it applies to the bridge will increase with time. After a few minutes it will have overloaded the bridge and it collapses.


bridges are supposed to withstand constant force.

the bridge has a constant force applied to it even if a car isnt on it.


remember gravity?

this is why material stresses are involved in bridge construction.

suppose they built bridges that they thought would only need to withstand the force of a car sitting on it.

thinking as you do that there are no constant forces acting on it.

and like your supposed inability to conceive total force having something to do with time.

you want to call it momentum force or impulse , but impulse it not what is causing the 100 kg mass to accelerate.

constant force is causing the mass to accelerate.



_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#40474 - 10/01/11 02:24 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: paul
Quote:
After that 1s, I'm still applying the same 80N force, continuously for all the seconds up to 50.


if you wanted to determine the total force that you applied
in the above how would you put the above into a equation?

What does "total force" mean? If it means force * time, then the usual name is "impulse".

Deny the name if you like, but when you multiply a force by the time it's applied for, you're calculating an impulse. See Wikipedia.


In your gas example:
(1) The rate of decrease of volume = 20gallons/second
The total volume burnt is
(2) volume = 20gallons/second * 50 seconds
volume = 1000gallons

Notice how we didn't start with a volume, but a rate of change of volume (gallons/second, not gallons).



Anyway, we really have to stop wasting time until you use units correctly. Just treat them the same as numbers or algebraic variables:

2x * 3x = 6x^2 ( that's 6*(x^2) )
2m * 3m = 6m^2 (like measuring the area of a room)

2x * 3 = 6x
2N * 3 = 6N

2x * 3y = 6xy
2N * 3s = 6Ns
2gallons * 3seconds = 6gallon-seconds

2m/s * 3s = 6m
2gallons/second * 3seconds = 6gallons
2kg.m/s/s * 3s = 6kg.m/s

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#40475 - 10/01/11 02:38 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: paul
4 ft^2 = 16 sq ft


By convention that's wrong.
See Example 1 here

Do you know BEDMAS, BODMAS or PEMDAS? Calculate the exponent before doing multiplication.

4ft^2 = 4 * (ft^2)
Not
(4ft)^2


Edited by kallog (10/01/11 02:42 AM)

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#40476 - 10/01/11 02:45 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
Notice how we didn't start with a volume, but a rate of change of volume (gallons/second, not gallons).


we didnt start with a volume because the equation finds volume.


Quote:
2m * 3m = 6m^2 (like measuring the area of a room)


you too huh.

2 anythings * 3 anythings = 6 anythings

not 6 anythings squared !!!

6 m^2 = 6m * 6m = 36 square meters

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#40477 - 10/01/11 02:45 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: paul
even if it means the complete disregard of the simplest of logic.

Quote:
Yes, if someone parks their car on a bridge, the weight force it applies to the bridge will increase with time. After a few minutes it will have overloaded the bridge and it collapses.



That was sarcasm. The car applies a constant force to the bridge. The accelerator applies a constant force to the mass. Analogous systems.

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#40478 - 10/01/11 02:48 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: paul
not 6 anythings squared !!!

6 m^2 = 6m * 6m = 36 square meters


"square meters" has exactly the same meaning as "meters squared" or "m^2".

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#40479 - 10/01/11 02:49 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
That was sarcasm. The car applies a constant force to the bridge. The accelerator applies a constant force to the mass. Analogous systems.


not really , because the mass doesnt have anything it can push against to keep it from moving like the bridge that has the earth to push against.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#40480 - 10/01/11 02:50 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
"square meters" has exactly the same meaning as "meters squared" or "m^2".


Wrong

you most likely have a calculator somewhere.

put 4 in your calculator then hit the x^2 button.

4^2 = 16





_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#40481 - 10/01/11 03:02 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: paul
put 4 in your calculator then hit the x^2 button.

4^2 = 16


You missed the whole point

4ft^2
= (4) * (ft^2)
<> (4*ft)^2

It's just the convention of math.

If you want to get 16 square feet then you should write
(4ft)^2
so people using the common convention know what you mean.

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#40482 - 10/01/11 03:02 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
4 ft^2 = 16 sq ft


By convention that's wrong.


which convention would that be , the learning math the wrong way convention.

LOL

heres a image that might help you to re-learn the right way to calculate area.


_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#40483 - 10/01/11 03:07 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: paul



Put units in and you get:
One side is 5ft
The other side is 5ft
Area = 5ft * 5ft
Area = 25ft^2
Area = 25 feet squared
Area = 25 square feet

Notice how the area is not 625 square feet.

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#40484 - 10/01/11 03:08 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:

4ft^2 = (4) * (ft^2) <> (4*ft)^2


dont want to admit that your wrong kallog?
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#40485 - 10/01/11 03:09 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:

Area = 5ft * 5ft
Area = 25 square feet


thats the only two thats correct.

in the image dont you see or wont your brain allow you to see that 5^2 = 25?



_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#40486 - 10/01/11 03:10 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: kallog]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
We're getting side tracked. Which of these do you agree with? We have to agree on all of them before we can do anything at all with math and units. Otherwise we can't communicate.


2x * 3x = 6x^2 ( that's 6*(x^2) )
2m * 3m = 6m^2 (like measuring the area of a room)

2x * 3 = 6x
2N * 3 = 6N

2x * 3y = 6xy
2N * 3s = 6Ns
2gallons * 3seconds = 6gallon-seconds

2m/s * 3s = 6m
2gallons/second * 3seconds = 6gallons
2kg.m/s/s * 3s = 6kg.m/s

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#40487 - 10/01/11 03:17 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: paul
in the image dont you see or wont your brain allow you to see that 5^2 = 25 sq ft?


25 sq ft
25 ft^2
25 square foot

ARE ALL EXACTLY THE SAME AREA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_foot

If you disagree you need a reference.

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#40488 - 10/01/11 03:21 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:

2x * 3x = 6x^2 ( that's 6*(x^2) )

wrong
Quote:

2m * 3m = 6m^2 (like measuring the area of a room)

wrong

you are wrong , you keep making this mistake even though I have corrected this mistake of yours over and over again.

until you can accept that then I am trying to communicate with someone who is brainwashed to the degree that makes communication impossible.

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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