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 #40388 - 09/27/11 11:49 PM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: paul] kallog Megastar Registered: 03/17/10 Posts: 1100 Originally Posted By: paulthe 100 kg mass would not have a velocity !!!and it would not have momentum !!!in fact it has been decelerated from +40 m/s to 0m/s Good God. This is hopeless. All the time I have been assuming all velocities are measured from a single observer, "stationary in space".Now it turns out you've been measuring some of them from different reference frames - sometimes the tube, sometimes the other observer.It's much easier if you use just one observer! Then we get -80m/s for the mass you described. Top
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 #40389 - 09/27/11 11:50 PM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: paul] kallog Megastar Registered: 03/17/10 Posts: 1100 Originally Posted By: paullet me rephrase that just for you , so that you can comprehend it.a = 67 m/s - 40 m/s / 1 second = 27 m/s/s Where did the 40m/s come from? Each mass has -40m/s before entering the turn, doesn't it? Top
 #40390 - 09/27/11 11:53 PM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: paul] kallog Megastar Registered: 03/17/10 Posts: 1100 Originally Posted By: paulthat makes absolutely no sense.Correct.Quote:twice the velocity ! no matter what the momentum is of the 2 bodies as long as one of them is more massive than the other."much more massive" is not the same as "more massive"">>" is not the same as ">"Again, it's an approximation. It's never correct. It gets closer and closer to correct the more massive the body is. So we better not use it. Top
 #40391 - 09/28/11 12:07 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C paul Megastar Registered: 03/21/06 Posts: 4136 Quote:">>" is not the same as ">"so its like >^2? _________________________ 3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science. Top
 #40392 - 09/28/11 12:10 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C paul Megastar Registered: 03/21/06 Posts: 4136 because I used a minus sign.Quote:a = 67 m/s - 40 m/s / 1 second = 27 m/s/sput a -40 m/s in there and you get 107 m/s/s _________________________ 3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science. Top
 #40393 - 09/28/11 12:15 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C paul Megastar Registered: 03/21/06 Posts: 4136 Quote:Good God. This is hopeless. All the time I have been assuming all velocities are measured from a single observer, "stationary in space".Now it turns out you've been measuring some of them from different reference frames - sometimes the tube, sometimes the other observer.It's much easier if you use just one observer! Then we get -80m/s for the mass you described.Good God. This is hopeless. All the time I have been assuming all velocities are measured from a single observer, "stationary in space".Now it turns out you've been measuring some of them from different reference frames - sometimes the tube, sometimes the other observer.really , I didnt know that I thought we were inside the pipe system.ok , lets do the rest from outside then.Then we get -80m/s for the mass you described.hows that?what Im showing so far is that after 50 secondsand this is from an observer outside during the 50 seconds.Im looking at the pipe and the pipe is moving to my left.after the 50 seconds has passedthe pipe has moved +321.036744117737 meters to my leftthe mass has moved -678.963255882263 meters to my rightthe pipe has a velocity of +12.84147 m/sthe mass has a velocity of -27.15853 m/sthe pipe has a momentum of +77048.82 Nsthe mass has a momentum of -2715.853 Nsthe pipe has a mass of 6000 kgthe mass has a mass of 100 kgso the 100 kg mass enters the turn at a velocity of -27.15853 m/snow you only have -2715.853 Ns vs +77048.82 Nsthats a difference of +74332.967 Ns momentumLOLthat was the sound of me sawing a leg off of your new table.is this the equation your talking about? if so I suppose that the "d" in the formula has no real value because so far I havent been able to find just what is used to put where the "d" 's are. !!!and it only takes into account 1 mass and 1 velocitynormaly when a symbol represents an element that has value the person describing the usage of the symbols in the formula will tell you what the different symbols are supposed to represent.is this true in the above formula?so that where the formula uses symbolism such as dt or dp it really just means t or p?????or are these the 2 formulas your talking about? theres no unexplained "d"'s in it and it really needs no explanation as to how your supposed to use it.not that they have any descriptive instructions on using themas wiki has in their informative articles related to physics.I of course would guess that u1 = m1 velocity initialu2 = m2 velocity initialbecause a guess is all I have to work with using thisnon informative article.ok , I got them to work the results are below.using initial velocities of m1 vi -27.15853 m/sm2 vi +12.84147 m/sm1 mass 100 kgm2 mass 6000 kgresults m1 v = +51.52999459 m/sm2 v = +11.52999459 m/sthat is using these formulas I plugged the formulas into an excel fileI havent programmed them into my program yet.is that about what you get?do you think that this would be a good way to determine the velocity of the 100 kg mass as it leaves the turn and the velocity of the pipe?if so then we can get on with this and cover the next 50 seconds.thats where the pipe gets really fast. _________________________ 3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science. Top
 #40394 - 09/28/11 03:26 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: paul] kallog Megastar Registered: 03/17/10 Posts: 1100 Originally Posted By: paulbecause I used a minus sign.a = 67 m/s - 40 m/s / 1 second = 27 m/s/sput a -40 m/s in there and you get 107 m/s/s Yes. 107m/s^2 is the acceleration, and is also consistent with the formula you used:Quote:a = (sf - si)/tsf = 67m/ssi = -40m/sa = (67m/s - -40m/s) / 1s = 107m/s^2 Top
 #40395 - 09/28/11 03:38 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: paul] kallog Megastar Registered: 03/17/10 Posts: 1100 Originally Posted By: paulok , lets do the rest from outside then.OK. I probably should have mentioned that sooner.Quote:now you only have -2715.853 Ns vs +77048.82 Nsthats a difference of +74332.967 Ns momentumAgain, you've ignored the other 49 masses that are about to hit the turn. They're more than enough to stop the pipe then reverse its direction.Quote:if so I suppose that the "d" in the formula has no real value because so far I havent been able to find just what is used to put where the "d" 's are. !!!I think we should leave that for another time. The d has a common meaning that's universally used across math and physics, so they don't need to say it. It's much more standard than symbols for velocity, etc. But we better not go into what it actually means. Easier to just not use that formula.Quote: m1 vi -27.15853 m/sm2 vi +12.84147 m/sm1 mass 100 kgm2 mass 6000 kgresults m1 v = +51.52999459 m/sm2 v = +11.52999459 m/sis that about what you get?do you think that this would be a good way to determine the velocity of the 100 kg mass as it leaves the turn and the velocity of the pipe? Yes to all the above. Except I don't trust the vi values you're using. But that's an issue with the accelerator not the turn. Top
 #40406 - 09/28/11 01:09 PM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C paul Megastar Registered: 03/21/06 Posts: 4136 Quote:Again, you've ignored the other 49 masses that are about to hit the turn. They're more than enough to stop the pipe then reverse its direction.it wouldnt be 49 it would be 50 I havent ignored the other 50 masses that are being accelerated towards the turn.during the 51 st second they are whats providing the force that pushes the pipe.you have agreed that the formula is correct other than the initial velocity values.so I will plug in that formula into my program.Quote:They're more than enough to stop the pipe then reverse its direction.m2 vi +12.84147 m/sm2 v = +11.52999459 m/sthis single mass managed to slow the pipes velocity by1.31147541 m/s in 1 secondhowever the pipes mass becomes less each secondandthe force driving the pipe in the (+) directionbecomes stronger each second.for the next 50 seconds the force driving the pipe will increase by a minimum of 80N each second and more if the speed of the exiting mass has a velocity greater than +40 m/s.and the mass that the increasing force has to push becomes less and less each second.anyway , I'll plug the formula in today. _________________________ 3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science. Top
 #40408 - 09/28/11 02:13 PM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: paul] TheFallibleFiend Megastar Registered: 06/08/05 Posts: 1940 Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp... Originally Posted By: paulis this the equation your talking about? if so I suppose that the "d" in the formula has no real value because so far I havent been able to find just what is used to put where the "d" 's are. !!! The d's don't have values, per se, because in that usage, d is an operator (roughly, like + or -). Actually, they are PART of an operator. It's first semester calculus.It's a *unary* operator, so it doesn't sit between two operands. Instead, it sits before the operand. d()/dt is an operator that means the "differential" of something "with respect to" t. For example, d(p)/dt means the change in momentum given an "infinitesimally" small change in time. Top
 #40411 - 09/28/11 04:04 PM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C paul Megastar Registered: 03/21/06 Posts: 4136 thanks TFF I didnt think it had any value. _________________________ 3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science. Top
 #40412 - 09/28/11 04:05 PM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: paul] paul Megastar Registered: 03/21/06 Posts: 4136 OK , I got it working.and WOW !!!here are the results after 101 seconds.hold on to your hat !!!!the force that accelerated each of the 100 kg masseswas +80N x 1000 meters = +4000Nthe force that is required to decelerate each of the 100 kg masses increases every second.so the pipe feels +4000N plus the extra for the additional+velocity that the decelerating mass has gained through the turn.this pushes the pipe faster and faster each second.by the time (101 seconds) the 1st mass reaches the place it started from the pipe has a force that causes it to accelerate in the (+) direction of +15987.072 Nand the pipe has moved a distance of +9604.559 meters.by the time (202 seconds) the last accelerated mass reaches the place where it started from the pipe has a force that causes it to accelerate in the (+) direction of +1302187.380Nand the pipe has moved a distance of +2863843.953 metersor +2863.843 kmits needs some improvement because it takes 6.8 minutes to reach light speed.I dont think that would be a proper acceleration for bags of salt water.so we might want to slow it down a bit.but to mars at 56,000,000 km its a slow 6.8 minute cruise.it might be best to experiment with this type of thing without people in it first.because if something breaks they might find themselves in another galaxy the next day.I let it run for 1 hour and the pipe traveled a distance of5.02576160643331E+73 metersmy program breaks it down into 1 million km units also5.02576160643331E+64 million km _________________________ 3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science. Top
 #40420 - 09/29/11 12:56 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: paul] kallog Megastar Registered: 03/17/10 Posts: 1100 Quote:the force that accelerated each of the 100 kg masseswas +80N x 1000 meters = +4000NNo. That quantity is 80,000Nm. Nm is not force. Actually it's energy. Using it as a force means everything else in your post will be meaningless so I didn't read it. Also the multiplication is done wrong.Can you show your calculations step-by-step? Without missing any steps? Edited by kallog (09/29/11 12:57 AM) Top
 #40421 - 09/29/11 01:04 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C paul Megastar Registered: 03/21/06 Posts: 4136 LOLyour right , I did mess that up.it is +80N applied for 50 seconds.+80N each second for 50 seconds over a distance of 1000 meters+80N x 50 seconds = +4000NQuote:Can you show your calculations step-by-step? Without missing any steps?I think it would be best if you did your own calculations and if our calculations are different then we can discuss them.you said you have vb 6I could just rename the .prj + .frm + .vbw files to .txt and you could just remove the .txt from them and run it yourself.open up your notepad , paste the below in it.save it as (form1.frm.txt) then rename it toform1.frm and see if you can run it.-----do not copy this line-----------------------VERSION 5.00Begin VB.Form Form1 Caption = "Form1" ClientHeight = 3195 ClientLeft = 60 ClientTop = 345 ClientWidth = 4680 LinkTopic = "Form1" ScaleHeight = 3195 ScaleWidth = 4680 StartUpPosition = 3 'Windows Default Begin VB.CommandButton Command2 Caption = "timer = 1 second per interval value" Height = 375 Left = 1200 TabIndex = 2 Top = 2160 Width = 3015 End Begin VB.Timer Timer1 Left = 360 Top = 2160 End Begin VB.CommandButton Command1 Caption = "Button" Height = 375 Left = 1560 TabIndex = 1 Top = 480 Width = 1215 End Begin VB.TextBox Text1 Height = 375 Left = 1560 TabIndex = 0 Text = "0" Top = 1080 Width = 1215 EndEndAttribute VB_Name = "Form1"Attribute VB_GlobalNameSpace = FalseAttribute VB_Creatable = FalseAttribute VB_PredeclaredId = TrueAttribute VB_Exposed = FalsePrivate Sub Command1_Click()Text1.Text = 80 * 50End SubPrivate Sub Command2_Click()Timer1.Interval = 1End SubPrivate Sub Timer1_Timer()Text1.Text = Val(Text1.Text) + 80End Sub-----------do not copy this line---------------if you can run the above then this might work. _________________________ 3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science. Top
 #40424 - 09/29/11 04:54 AM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: paul] kallog Megastar Registered: 03/17/10 Posts: 1100 Originally Posted By: paulLOL+80N x 50 seconds = +4000N4000Ns, not 4000N. This is the impulse applied to the pipe, not the force. It's also the momentum added to it. The force is 80N because you defined the force to be 80N.Quote:I think it would be best if you did your own calculations and if our calculations are different then we can discuss them.No. That will lead to another confusing mess. You can just show each step of the machine, and what happens to the relevant variables (velocity/etc).You can probably get your program to show the results after each change.I already wrote a program for the complete 1-mass system. You didn't bother to even read the code or paste it into your own program, or run it, or anything. So I don't want to waste time doing that again. Top
 #40429 - 09/29/11 02:50 PM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C paul Megastar Registered: 03/21/06 Posts: 4136 Quote:4000Ns, not 4000N. This is the impulse applied to the pipe, not the force. It's also the momentum added to it. The force is 80N because you defined the force to be 80N.q: what is the amount of force that you would need to apply to a 100kg mass in order to accelerate it at a acceleration rate of .8 m/s/s for a distance of 1000 meters over a time period of 50 seconds.answer: 4000N80N x 50 seconds = 4000N1 newton = the force required to accelerate a 1 kg mass at a acceleration of 1 m/s/s.or you can say1 newton = the force required to accelerate a 1 kg mass at a acceleration rate of 1 m/s each second.ie ... in 1 second the 1kg mass will accelerate to 1 m/s/s if you apply a force of 1N to it for a time of 1 secondso 50 seconds x 80N = 4000N http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton_(unit) Quote: it is equal to the amount of net force required to accelerate a mass of one kilogram at a rate of one meter per second squared _________________________ 3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science. Top
 #40430 - 09/29/11 03:04 PM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: paul] TheFallibleFiend Megastar Registered: 06/08/05 Posts: 1940 Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp... Originally Posted By: paul80N x 50 seconds = 4000N No.80N x 50 = 4000N80N x 50 seconds = 4000NsWe don't throw away the seconds. Force x Time yields a Force x Time, not a Force alone.Q: What is 2 bananas times 2 bananas?Hint: NOT 4 bananas. Top
 #40431 - 09/29/11 03:18 PM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C paul Megastar Registered: 03/21/06 Posts: 4136 the reason I used 50 seconds is because kallog cant seem to understand things that Im trying to communicate to him.and here is what he commented on.Quote:the force that accelerated each of the 100 kg masseswas +80N x 1000 meters = +4000Nif you want to accelerate a 100kg mass from 0m to 1000min 50 seconds , at an acceleration rate of .8 m/s/s you are required to apply a 80N force for the 1000 meterdistance thus 80N x 1000m = 4000Nproof = 4000N / 80N = 50 secondsproof = .8 m/s/s = 80N / 100kgproof = 80N = 100kg x .8 m/s/smeaning that the total force over the 50 second time period that the 80N was applied for over the 1000 meter distance would be 4000NQuote:that acceleratedpast tense = it has already happened.80N was applied for 1000 meters.what the meaning of the sentence means is that the total force that I paid for to accelerate the 100 kg mass was 80N x 1000 meters = 4000Nthat is how I would interpret that sentence.he commented on my use of 1000 meters as if he didnt understand what it was representing.if it cost you 1 dollar a second to walk and you walked a distance of 1000 meters in 50 seconds would it cost you 50 dollars or 50 dollar seconds?1 dollar x 50 seconds = 50 dollarsit certainly doesnt equal 50 dollars a secondor 50 dollar secondsit equals 50 dollarsobviously he didnt rembember what we have been discussing.I changed the 1000 meters to 50 seconds and I used the word seconds to describe what the (50) represented!!ie.. so that he would possibly be able to understand what the 50 REPRESENTED _________________________ 3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science. Top
 #40432 - 09/29/11 04:25 PM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C paul Megastar Registered: 03/21/06 Posts: 4136 Quote:You can probably get your program to show the results after each change.it already does.it shows all changes to all possible elements that I can think of.mass , velocity , force , acceleration , time , distanceit adds 80N each second to accelerate each mass to the total force that accelerates the pipe.it subtracts 100kg from the total mass of the pipe each second because each launched mass is 100kg. it has separate calculations for every second.it has a separate calculation for the turn.(it just got faster because the 1 second turn wont require 1 full second)but I havent included that yet.it replaces the initial velocities of the pipe and the 100kg mass with the resultant velocities of the pipe and 100kg mass from the turn calculation.it adds the force required to decelerate the 100kg mass to the total force applied to the pipe each second.so that when an element changes such as velocity or massthe program determines the force required to apply to either accelerate or decelerate the pipe and the 100kg mass.its pretty accurate other than the 1 second turn time that is pre-programmed into it.and that turn time will be lower every time a mass passes through it.but that will change too.I think that if I use the initial velocity of the mass and the final velocity of the mass as it passes through the turn I can get the time required for the mass to pass usingthe following formulasva = .5(vi+vf)wherevi = initial velocityvf = final velocityva = average velocity( = bracket) = bracket. = .= = equal to+ = plusthis is the average velocity of the mass through the turn meaning that the result from the above formula would be the average velocity of the mass passing through the turn.where average means average.thent = vi / vfwheret = timevi = initial velocityvf = final velocity/ = divided by= = equal toso the only way to keep track of the actual time would be to keep a separate time value.the program will track only the programming time.meaning that the program follows a set interval when dealing with time , that is the program will execute code at a given time that represent actual time.so every time a mass passes through the turn the program will add a partial time to the time value vs adding a full second to the time valuebut the program itself will only use full seconds to execute the code. _________________________ 3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science. Top
 #40433 - 09/29/11 05:04 PM Re: Record Cold in New Zealand 1903 -26.6 C [Re: paul] TheFallibleFiend Megastar Registered: 06/08/05 Posts: 1940 Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp... Paul,I think you would enjoy taking a pre-calculus class. You would obviously do your homework which is the main problem that most people have with it - and I bet you could find some acceptable classes offered online.It probably wouldn't be any more effort than you are investing now. Top
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