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Quote:
the applet you posted a link to gives different data
than the above.


You probably let it do more that one collision. Check after just one collision. Beyond that and we're not modelling our flying tube anymore.


Anyway here's my program in the form of a Visual Basic 2008 Express Edition project. You can download that from MS.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21857463/tube.zip

The guts of it is this:

Code:
        'Update positions
        oldMassPosition = massPosition
        oldTubePosition = tubePosition
        massPosition = massPosition + massVelocity * TimeStepSize
        tubePosition = tubePosition + tubeVelocity * TimeStepSize

        'Check for hitting end of tube
        If (massPosition < tubePosition) Or (massPosition > tubePosition + tubeLength) Then
            Dim newMassVelocity As Double
            Dim newTubeVelocity As Double
            newMassVelocity = (massVelocity * (massMass - tubeMass) + 2 * tubeMass * tubeVelocity) / (massMass + tubeMass)
            newTubeVelocity = (tubeVelocity * (tubeMass - massMass) + 2 * massMass * massVelocity) / (massMass + tubeMass)
            massVelocity = newMassVelocity
            tubeVelocity = newTubeVelocity
        End If

        'Check for passing accelerator
        If massVelocity - tubeVelocity < 0 Then 'Only apply accelerator when going left
            If ((massPosition - tubePosition) <= AcceleratorLocation) _
            And ((oldMassPosition - oldTubePosition) > AcceleratorLocation) Then
                massVelocity = massVelocity - MomentumAddedByAccelerator / massMass
                tubeVelocity = tubeVelocity + MomentumAddedByAccelerator / tubeMass
            End If
        End If


The big equations I got from the "Elastic Collision" page on Wikipedia

Here's a screenshot

.
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So now we agree that IT CANNOT WORK WITH ONE MASS!!



thats what I have been trying to say all along , but you insisted on using only 1 mass.

actually below is where this all started
#34660 - May 31, 2010 01:46 PM
Originally Posted By: paul
why do you need to throw something outside the ship?
why not just throw it out inside the ship.

the same reaction would occur.

and you still have your propellant.

#34769 - June 07, 2010 12:12 AM
Originally Posted By: kallog
Yea you're mostly right. You can cause movement of a closed pipe, or change the speed of a spinning space station by moving things around inside. This is exactly what physicists already know.

BUT! It isn't sustainable, so you can't actaully travel and useful distance.


And here was the begining of the 20 masses being accelerated only I used 20 people.

#34885 - June 10, 2010 11:11 AM

Originally Posted By: kallog
Quote:
If he kicks off with a tiny force, then he spends a long time floating back down. So the pipe keeps on moving backwards slowly for a long time. In the end, the distance (velocity * time) is the same and it's all back where it started.


yes but if there are other people climbing up the ladder , the
tiny force that he applies will be overcome by the larger forces.

so if you have 1 person stopping at the end and 20 climbing
and 20 floating back.

20 larger forces -------------------->
and 1 tiny force <-
and 1 person stopping<--

so you have the force applied by 20 people
vs the -force of 1 person as he reaches the end plus the tiny force he applies to return , and the tiny force cancels out when he gets there.

#35029 - June 17, 2010 11:21 PM
Originally Posted By: kallog
Now I've shown no long-term movement with 2 masses, you can expand the calculation for 20 masses. But why 20? Why not 10? 100? 2?


I went back and followed this discussion in its original thread and after many many many times of me insisting that the system uses 20 masses accelerating and 1 mass in the (-) turn and 1 mass in the (+) turn , you kept having trouble with the system.

Quote:
quote:paul
lets drop all the confussing stuff.

we now have 1 mass and thats all.


so I did lower the 20 accelerating masses to 1 accelerating mass.

with the intention of later replacing the 19 that I removed
because it was too confusing for you to follow.

so since I removed them I replace them.

surely you can now follow using 20 accelerating masses
most likely you could follow before using 20 accelerating masses but in order for your side of the discussion to leverage an advantage you knew it had to be lowered to only 1 mass and never more than 1 mass.


now I suppose my question to you is.

do you think you can follow using 20 accelerating masses?

you can even make your program to show the amount of momentum added to the pipe using the 20 accelerating masses and then the amount of momentum added or subtracted from the momentum of the pipe as a single mass passes through both a (-) and a (+) turn.

I dont need a program as I would just think of it as if the 20 masses were already being accelerating.

the same force is being applied to each of the 5 kg masses.

there are 20 being accelerated.

each mass is being accelerated to 40 m/s

the same force that is applied to the 20 masses by the accelerator is also being applied to the pipes only in the opposite direction.



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your program has a set number of 4000 that reads momentum added by accelerator , this number should be 8000

because
the pipe has 4000 N.s
and
the mass has 4000 N.s


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Originally Posted By: paul
your program has a set number of 4000 that reads momentum added by accelerator , this number should be 8000


That number means the momentum added to the pipe (and subtracted from the mass). So they both get 4000 but in different directions.

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[quote=paul]So now we agree that IT CANNOT WORK WITH ONE MASS!!

Do you agree with the results of my program?
It shows the pipe never moves further than its own length.
Look at the numbers, do you agree with them too?
When you do, we can go to 20 masses.

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Quote:
Do you agree with the results of my program?
It shows the pipe never moves further than its own length.
Look at the numbers, do you agree with them too?
When you do, we can go to 20 masses.


Do you agree with the results of my program?
I havent used your program below is all I have seen.
It shows the pipe never moves further than its own length.
how far did it move?
Look at the numbers, do you agree with them too?
yes I can agree with them if they are before the 1st turn.
When you do, we can go to 20 masses.
then lets go to 20 masses!

also I changed the pipe lenght to 400 meters.
400 m / 20 = 20 meters

I changed the pipe lenght to 400 meters so the acceleration of each of the 20 masses will be 2 m/s/s
http://tutor4physics.com/motion1d.htm

so

F=ma

10 N = 5kg x 2 m/s/s

remember there is a total of 42 masses

each mass has its own pipe and its own 2 turns.

change the mass of the mass to 5 kg each.


a force of 10 N is required to accelerate a 5 kg mass to 40 m/s/s over a distance of 400 meters.

5kg x 40 m/s/s = 200 N is the force the pipe will feel as the mass passes through the turns.

10 N x 20 masses = +200 N force applied to the pipe in the (+) direction.

so there will be a constant force of +200 N causing the pipe to move in the (+) direction.

can you agree with the above?


--------- this is the constant force that the pipe feels as the 2 masses pass through the 2 turns simultaneously.------

there is 1 mass in each turn.


so below are the calculations of the force that the pipe
would feel as the 2 masses pass through the 2 turns.

------------------- the single mass that passes through the 1st turn

5kg x -40 m/s = -200 N


------------------- the single mass that passes through the 2nd turn at the same time

5kg x +40 m/s = +200 N

because the two masses passing through the 2 turns have the same velocity only different directions and would apply the same force to the 2 turns at the same time , the pipe would not be affected by the masses passing through them as far as pipe speed is concerned.

by launching the masses toward turn 1 and 2 at the same time with the same force the 2 launched masses will reach the opposing turns simultaneously.

they will apply the same force to the pipe only in different directions.

the launching and acceleration of the 2 masses in opposite directions will apply the same force in opposite directions to the pipe.

the 2 accelerating masses as described above would not cause the pipe to move yet.

so far we have launched 2 masses that are in opposing directions.

result = zero movement.

and we have passed 2 of the 5 kg masses through their respective opposing turns.

this did not cause the pipe to move either.

can you agree with the above?




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Originally Posted By: paul
yes I can agree with them if they are before the 1st turn.


It does many turns and many accelerations. Use the program and see if you agree. If not there's no point my extending it to more masses.

If you're afraid of a virus, get VB, create a project, add some buttons/etc, paste my code in, etc. and make it work.


Quote:

remember there is a total of 42 masses

each mass has its own pipe and its own 2 turns.

What a mess. Are you saying the old way with 20 masses and one pipe cannot work? If you are please say it clearly that your entire argument up till recently has been wrong.

If you think the other way would work, then we should use that instead because it's probably simpler.


Quote:

can you agree with the above?

I didn't really read it. There's no point. When I tell you where you're wrong you don't understand. Have you worked out how to add momentums yet?

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Quote:
What a mess. Are you saying the old way with 20 masses and one pipe cannot work?


there never was just 20 masses , there were 20 masses accelerating.

20 masses moving towards the 2nd turn.

and 1 mass in each turn.

42 masses , I looked back and its there just look for it.



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Originally Posted By: paul
there were 20 masses accelerating.
20 masses moving towards the 2nd turn.
and 1 mass in each turn.
42 masses , I looked back and its there just look for it.


What is the minimum required? You seem to be saying:
- It cannot work with 1 mass
- It will work with 42 masses
How about something between 1 and 42? What makes you confident about 42 but unsure about 40?

What if I try 2? Do you predict motion of the pipe further than its own length? Does it depend where they are when they start? I don't want the rules changing after I programmed it.

How long does it remain in that state of 20 accelerating, 20 going the other way, and 2 turning? The masses will probably get out of sync pretty quickly because of their different speeds.

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maybe it wont work.




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maybe it will

there is a way to make it work using only 1 mass and 1 pipe
but having 101 sets of a mass and a pipe.

----------------------------- time -------------
http://tutor4physics.com/motion1d.htm
to accelerate a object to a distance of 1000 meters
with a final velocity of 40 m/s
and a initial velocity of 0 m/s
requires an acceleration of 0.8 m/s/s
http://www.ajdesigner.com/constantacceleration/cavelocitya.php
the time it takes to accelerate a mass from 0 m/s to 40 m/s
at 0.8 m/s/s is 50 seconds.
-----------------------------------


by bringing the two ends of turn 2 together so that they do not form a turn around.

and so that the mass must stop as it reaches the furthermost
(+) side of the pipe.

this would remove 1 of the 2 turns.

using a 1000 kg set of 101 pipes that are 1000 m in lenght.
and using a total of 101 100 kg masses.

by accelerating the 101 masses independently in a synchronized way
1 each second for 101 seconds

durring any second after 101 seconds there will be
50 masses traveling in the + direction
50 masses traveling in the - direction
and 1 mass in the turn

-----------------------------------

so that they will be a distance of 1 second apart as they reach the turn
each mass will reach the turn with a velocity of -40 m/s

-----------------------------------
-----------------------------------

by accelerating the 50 masses to the turn.
you have applied a force of +4000 N to the pipe

50 masses x +80N each = +4000N pipe

and -------------------------------

by decelerating the 50 masses to the (+) end of the pipe.
you have applied a force of +4000 N to the pipe

50 masses x +80 = +4000N pipe


this causes the pipe to travel in the (+) direction.
because of the combined force of both the
50 accelerating masses x +80N = +4000N pipe
and the
50 decelerating masses x +80N = +4000N pipe

total +8000N
-----------------------------------

every second the pipe is feeling a force of +8000N
-----------------------------------


the 100 kg mass passes through the turn and
it applies a force of -4000 N to the pipe

1 x 100kg x -40m/s = -4000N

------------------------------------

the turn is 40 meters in length.
the mass has a velocity of 40 m/s
it takes 1 second for the mass to pass through the turn.
100 kg x 40 m/s = 4000N
so in 1 second the mass applies its momentum due to its movement to the pipe.

and that is -4000N

every second the pipe is feeling a force of -4000N

(+8000N) + (-4000N) = +4000N pipe

during opperation the pipe will feel a constant force
in the (+) direction of +4000N

you can generate enough electricity using the decelerating masses to pay for the next cycle.

it takes 101 seconds for a mass to complete 1 cycle
of acceleration , turn , deceleration

when a mass has completed a cycle it is then accelerated again.







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Originally Posted By: paul
50 accelerating masses x +80N = +4000N pipe
and the
50 decelerating masses x +80N = +4000N pipe

What about the masses in the 1st turn? They apply a force pushing the pipe backwards.

I've already demonstrated to your satisfaction that a mass changing direction will transfer double it's initial momentum to the pipe.

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Quote:
What about the masses in the 1st turn? They apply a force pushing the pipe backwards.

there is only 1 mass in the turn each second.

it applies a force of -4000N
but that force is opposed by a force of +8000N

Quote:
transfer double it's initial momentum


I dont think thats possible kallog.

take into consideration the two carts applet for an example.

https://www.msu.edu/~brechtjo/physics/airTrack/airTrack.html

using two 1 kg masses

and accelerating them both at 40 m/s toward each other.

the result shows that neither mass has recieved double the momentum of the other mass.

because both 1 kg masses move away from each other at 40 m/s

if what you say were possible then each mass would transfer double its momentum into the other mass and they would both be moving away from each other at 80 m/s vs 40 m/s after they collide.

now if you look at the details of it you find that there is a required force of a (-) and (+) 40N to first stop
the two carts.
because they must stop in order to change directions.

so in the 2 carts example above they both did.
Quote:
transfer double it's initial momentum


the collision generated 160N
80N was used up in stopping the two carts.
80N was used up accelerating the two carts to -40m/s
and +40m/s

back to the pipe and mass system...

using only the (+) and (-) directed forces would show that
there is more force being applied to the pipe in the (+)
direction than in the (-) direction at any given time after the first 101 seconds.

its like a tug of WAR and the positive forces win.



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Originally Posted By: paul
using two 1 kg masses

and accelerating them both at 40 m/s toward each other.

the result shows that neither mass has recieved double the momentum of the other mass.

because both 1 kg masses move away from each other at 40 m/s


The mass on the left changed it's momentum from 40kgm/s to -40kgm/s. That's a difference of -80kgm/s.

The mass on the right changed it's momentum from -40kgm/s to 40kgm/s. That's a difference of 80kgm/s.

A change in momentum of only 40kgm/s (1 times) would cause it to stop, not change direction.

This is the reason solar sails are supposed to be reflective, not black. Photons bouncing off give twice as much momentum as photons that are absorbed.

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Quote:
The mass on the left changed it's momentum from 40kgm/s to -40kgm/s. That's a difference of -80kgm/s.


thats why I said

Quote:
the collision generated 160N
80N was used up in stopping the two carts.
80N was used up accelerating the two carts to -40m/s
and +40m/s


Quote:
A change in momentum of only 40kgm/s (1 times) would cause it to stop, not change direction.


but it has a change in momentum of 80N not 40N

so +40N spring tension stops it from going in the (-) direction
and +40N spring tension accelerates it in the (+) direction.

like a spring that stores up +40N
as you apply -40N to compress the spring.
once the spring is compressed and the mass has stopped moving.
you still have +40N stored in the spring.

and that +40N accelerates the 1 kg mass to +40 m/s.

I believe this is where your understanding is flawed.
earlier when you said
Quote:
transfer double it's initial momentum


it cannot double its momentum all by itself.
it would need another force acting on it.

so where is the other force?

Quote:
This is the reason solar sails are supposed to be reflective, not black. Photons bouncing off give twice as much momentum as photons that are absorbed.


just like the spring above!

consider the spring attached to the solar sail.
but the solar sail isnt moving yet.
give the solar sail a mass of 1000000 kg

now apply a -40N force to the spring.
the solar sail feels the -40N force that you apply to the spring , and as you apply the -40N force the solar sails mass resist movement momentarily while you depress the spring.
but you have depressed the spring and if you hold it in with a -40 N force the sail will move away from you.

you can then multiply the
solar sails mass x its velocity

p=mv

and it will equal -40N

that is not double momentum.

that is -40N for -40N

action / reaction

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/Secondlaw.ogg





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Originally Posted By: paul

Quote:
transfer double it's initial momentum


it cannot double its momentum all by itself.
it would need another force acting on it.

Your use of English is part of your problem. "transfer double .." means it _transfers_ twice what it had. It doesn't mean anything doubles its momentum.

Anyway, we know that for every mass, the effect of the turns and accelerator cancel out. No matter how many masses you use, they're still cancelling out.

If you want to change it to a dead-end then you have to clearly state that the entire recirculating mass idea was wrong.

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Originally Posted By: paul

you can then multiply the
solar sails mass x its velocity

p=mv

and it will equal -40N


mass x velocity does not have units of force (N). Why should I try to interpret what you intend to say when it has such fundamental mistakes.

If you mean momentum, then that won't be 40 anythings either. The momentum will depend on how much time the force was applied for. You havn't stated that so we can't know what the momentum will be.

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Quote:
:kallog]Your use of English is part of your problem. "transfer double .." means it _transfers_ twice what it had. It doesn't mean anything doubles its momentum.


you mean it transfers twice its momentum because thats what it had?
1)it had mass
and
2)its mass had velocity

I would think that what it had was a combination of its mass
and its velocity , which is its momentum.

it didnt transfer twice its mass!
it didnt transfer twice its velocity!
so what is the thing it had that it transfered twice?


Quote:
:kallog]Anyway, we know that for every mass, the effect of the turns and accelerator cancel out. No matter how many masses you use, they're still cancelling out.


theres only 1 turn.

Quote:
:paul]by bringing the two ends of turn 2 together so that they do not form a turn around.

and so that the mass must stop as it reaches the furthermost
(+) side of the pipe.

this would remove 1 of the 2 turns.



Quote:
:kallog]If you want to change it to a dead-end then you have to clearly state that the entire recirculating mass idea was wrong.


it wasnt wrong , its the same thing.
the 2nd turn applied +4000N also.

remember the masses that floated to the 2nd turn , they supplied no force that would cause the pipe to accelerate or decelerate.

I just replaced the turn that was giving the pipe
the +4000N force with a full stop decelerator that gives the pipe a +4000N force.

and the +4000N is still there because the decelerator is attached to the pipe and it decelerates the 50 100 kg masses to 0 m/s.

+80N is required to decelerate a 100kg mass from +40m/s to 0 m/s.

50 x +80N = +4000N

its still +8000N pipe and -4000N pipe as its always been.

leaving a +4000N force to move the pipe in the (+) direction.

Quote:
:kallog]mass x velocity does not have units of force (N). Why should I try to interpret what you intend to say when it has such fundamental mistakes.


Quote:
:kallog]If you mean momentum, then that won't be 40 anythings either. The momentum will depend on how much time the force was applied for. You havn't stated that so we can't know what the momentum will be.


your talking about acceleration because f=ma
you dont need time to calculate momentum.
p=mv
time is already in the velocity

momentum = mass x velocity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum

Quote:
:wikipedia]In classical mechanics, momentum (pl. momenta; SI unit kg·m/s, or, equivalently, N·s) is the product of the mass and velocity of an object


I said the following

Quote:
:paul]and it will equal -40N



by applying the -40N force to the spring that is attached to the solar sail.
over a time of 1 second
or over a time of 1000 seconds does not matter.

the spring only requires -40N to compress it.

you can take a million years to let the spring expand but all you will ever get out of it is -40N acting against the solar sail.

so guess what , if it takes a million years or 1 second for the spring to expand , the solar sail will still have
only -40N momentum because if you multiply its velocity x its mass its momentum will equal -40N

if I would have included time by adding the time it takes for the spring to compress it would not change a thing.

if I would have included time by adding the time it takes for the spring to expand it would not change a thing.

would you like another?




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I suppose your questioning your education as I write this.

its not that your education is flawed beyond repair its that those who gave you your education made you think certain things were not possible.
because those that gave them their education made them think certain things were not possible.

etc...etc...etc.

rely on the math , its right or pretty darn close.

throw the theoretical laws into the theory can.

put the lid on it ( so they cannot escape ) and
put the can in your attic.

or use it to prop up a table.

thats about all its worth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7kzsZreG0o




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Originally Posted By: paul
so what is the thing it had that it transfered twice?

Neither mass nor velocity but the product of them.

Quote:
I just replaced the turn that was giving the pipe
the +4000N force with a full stop decelerator that gives the pipe a +4000N force.

A change of direction has the same effect on the pipe as a stop? How can you possibly imagine that to be true? What if we stop it, then accelerate it in the opposite direction. Will that give +8000N while a U-bend is only +4000N?



Quote:

so guess what , if it takes a million years or 1 second for the spring to expand , the solar sail will still have
only -40N momentum because if you multiply its velocity x its mass its momentum will equal -40N

Are you seriously saying that applying the same force for a longer time will give the same momentum to an object?

Did you ever try pushing a car? Or anything at all for that matter? Don't say it has to have a spring, everything has a spring, just it's often very stiff and only compresses a short distance.

As soon as you start applying the 40N to the (massless) spring, the solar sail immediately feels the full 40N and starts accelerating at a=40N/mass. It keeps on accelerating while you keep applying the force. So the longer you hold the force on it, the faster it will move.

Your physics skills seem to be deteriorating. Why are you so reluctant to look things up? I often go and research things so I know something about what I'm saying on internet forums.

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