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[/quote] With no intention of being doctrinaire, here is my personal solution: GOD, like all that is ultimately, creatively and gloriously real, is no thing and you and I are one in, and with, IT. Things are the toys we create when, like the children we are, we just want to have some fun. Loving fun--the kind that brings true joy to us and others, at no ones expense, is my idea of heaven. How about it? What is your idea?

[/quote]

Mr. Revlgking,
May I ask a question, if you understand my non-native English?

Imagine that yours little son and daughter built in the yard a kind of park, while you are travelling far away. When you get back home, you see your children crying as desesperated prisoners inside a kind of hell: there are no good and enough food, there are horrible predators, such is the suffering that they should prefer the suicide. What do you do? As a father, you would seat comfortable watching and saying: “Why you did not think that my yard – called “The Eden Paradise” is the most perfect possible for you? Why do you need doing experiments with that? Ok, you build it…now, enjoy it! I will do nothing, seated here, only watching your torture.”

Ok. Now, don’t imagine anything and comeback to the real world. We – me and you – are seeing existence from opposite perspectives. Why? I think it is due we had different life’s experiences. I don’t think you need working the heavy and undesirable dirty job that I am doing, seven days a week, sometimes 14 hours a day. My humor just now is very, very different from yours. I want revolution, changes, or death, just yesterday, today is too late. I think you, by the opposite, is a conservative.

I am searching – in those few hours I have free - the responsible first cause of the existence of this world and my existence, not for ask something or be a gentleman, but for socking his face, if it is a living being, or destroying it, if it is a random material first cause. Then, my personal philosophical search arrives to a final result, a new world vision, which I called “The Universal Matrix/DNA of Natural Systems and Life’s Cycles”. I am not here for publishing my website or trying get followers, but for debating the ideas of people that I think are wrong and its effects are hurting me, like the creationists, religious beliefs.

We both maybe are offspring from Europeans, living in the new American world. But you had lucky, you was nurtured in a family, inside a home, you could chose your way, your profession, etc. I was born from father and mother that died when I was three years old in a country that we did not know nobody, so, I was nurtured in the streets with criminals, always hungry, but I never made something against the social laws and I worked hard all my life, getting inside an university, etc. But, if you don’t have family and a home, you cannot chose your ways, never, you cannot chose your profession and school, you never will learn a profession that you like it and makes money. Because you need every day to pay the rent and buy food, so, you knock the doors asking a job, people see that you is like a pray, than, they behave like the predators, they remember the worst job they have to do and explore you, paying the less money possible. Never anybody will offer to you an opportunity for getting out from the cycle of misery: you don’t learn a good profession because you need work manually just now for paying the bedroom at night.

Ok, I am like yours “children that created our world like a toy because we just want to have some fun…” as you said. But, if the world’s population today is about 7billions, I think that at least 4 billion are having an existence like mine, 2 billion a little less torturing. On your belief, there is an intelligent and watching everything “god”. And that god should be our spiritual father. If so, he better do that I don’t reach him, never, because I would sock his face. Should put him into a prison for eternity. Because he should be at my eyes, a monster. Because a father that abandoned, and worst, tortured, his sons is a monster. Knowing that since my childhood, I had controlled my instincts, like the sex, for never risking to make a new human being for living this terrible existence. So, we have different views about what must be a father.

Why, you, as a father, agree that your son and daughter must be tortured due their mistakes? Tortured with cancer, HIV, misery, climate tragedies, sometimes in the mouth of horrible lions, etc.?!!! How can you watching these scenes, which to me should be unsupportable?!!! You are a monster, sir, I think it, sorry. No matter what kind of mistakes my offspring could do, I never should agree and permitting this kind of punishment with torture. And you accept it, so, sorry, I think you, as religious, theist and creationists, are like monsters. It justify the human behavior as predators of other human beings.

The Earth’s biosphere is a creation in a chaotic state of nature. I learned it very well living at the heart of Amazon jungle, watching the principles of nature. We, human beings are sons of chaos. The chaos produces these things as predators and prays. So, the human social system is shared between predators and prays. I understand it. But… I think that we should to make a war against our absurd natural inheritance, against the animal that still live inside us. I think we need wish to be something else, more powerful than matter, more elegant, don’t mirroring our samples and copying the salvage world, searching the another state of nature for our offspring, the ordered state. But, while there are predators and people that are friends of our fundamentals enemies – like your ghost irresponsible and not human “god” – instead being only Humanist, doing everything possible for helping each human being to reach a better life, the chaos state and our animal tracts, remains. That’s why I think yours ideas and world vision also are the cause for the suffering of at least 6 billion persons.

What do you have to say, if I deserve your response?


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Originally Posted By: Revlgking


"The initial phase of the universe (that first fraction of a second from the Big Bang) had to be set up in a very special way in order for stars, galaxies and ultimately life to form. Cosmologist Fred Hoyle did some major work on the nuclear reactions that go on inside stars to form all the chemical elements out of the simplest building block, which is hydrogen. He discovered that there needs to be a very fine balance of the forces in nature in order to make carbon, and then to make oxygen without destroying the carbon.

Although he didn't believe in God, Hoyle said that his work let him to the conclusion that there was a super-intellect behind physics, chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature.


Mr. Revlgking,

I think you and Mr. Hoyle have a big mental problem, sorry.

The initial phase of our mothers’ womb ( that first fraction of a second from the big bang of the spermatozoon envelope) had to be set up in a very special way in order for a morula developed to a blastula, and then, to a fetus, an embryo… we are watching that the female womb needs to be a very fine balance of forces in order to make a new creature. The scene we are watching here and now never let any person to a conclusion that there is a super-intellect behind the physics, chemistry and biology of ours mothers’ wombs, and there are no blind forces worth speaking about that. A female giraffe makes something, without applying any kind of super-intellect. And the reptile that was evolved to mammal did not applied intellect for doing the mammalian reproductive apparatus also.

Everything about the first moment of our body is merely natural. Our ancestors, from primates to stars and particles, were natural things. Everything created in this Universe is natural. So, the right conclusion is that nature is universe and Universe is nature. We are watching that natural things are created BY NATURAL METHOD FROM NATURAL THINGS. We never saw the action of any super-intellect, alien to Nature, creating something. Then, by the sake of hells, how can your mind to bring on a kind of thing that your senses and the real known history of Nature never was showed?!!!

If everything created after the Big Bang are natural things by natural method, if we are watching here a scene identical to the theory about the first moment of this Universe happening by natural method… why one’s mind goes far away of the beam seeing an alien ghost to Nature as the creator?!!!

I think I know the answer. For surviving in a more comfortable way, as predators of others human beings energy, we need a world vision that justifies our behavior. Like Christianity admitting a social system shared between the boss and the employer. But… the creators of religions never wanted to be the employees.

Am I wrong?


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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Interesting link, Rev. Is it always that calm?
BillS: It was calm anytime we visited the area over the last twenty years.

Freedom Cove--the name was given to it by Catherine and Wayne--is a very sheltered one. Wayne's son, who works steady as a foreman on one of the salmon fish-farms in the area, is building his own home not far from "The Fire-weed Bower" which is Magenta in colour. He and his father work well, together. They use the boat (an un-sinkable one, we hope) like some people use a small truck. They use it to "truck" fire-word, soil for the gardens, materials for building things, shopping in Tofino (25 minutes ride away) and the like.

Winters? They are cold, once in awhile. But Spring comes early, and summer lingers late.

The waters around can freeze, for a short time, in January, but it doesn't usually last. A small amount of snow can fall, now and then, but it soon turns into rain.

A lot of the food plants in the floating garden--plants like lettuce, cabbage, turnips, etc., survive the winter--which is a great time for artists to produce their art in the warmth the light they they get from the "Genny" and the warmth they get from the wood stove--VERY nice and COSY.

ARTISTS WILL OFTEN USE THEIR ART TO BARTER FOR THINGS THEY NEED. ANYONE INTERESTED?
==============================================
For some time now, they have had electricity. Some it comes from the sun, but mostly, it comes from a clean burning gas-driven generator.

TRANSPORTATION
Transportation? As the parents of Catherine, we do our part by buying some of her art, including her ability to write, in return for cash.

Naturally, we want her to have the money to buy the safe kind of boat she now owns, and other things such as a gas stove and washing machine. The next project is refrigeration. Any ideas?

Earlier this year, a friend and benefactor from the area, in return for art, gave Catherine and Wayne a Satellite-TV, and a DVD player of movies and music. Like we all of us, both like to be connected with what is going on on this amazing planet we call, Earth.

OUR FIRST VISIT
Jean and I made our first visit to the Freedom Cove in 1992 and every second year since then. We got back just last Wednesday.

In 1992, the "house" was nothing more than a two-room cabin, one with barely enough space for two couples. At the time, I did a painting of it: It is 3 feet 4 inches, by 1 foot 8 inches. Recently, I did one of the two-story house. Both could make excellent prints.

Bathroom facilities then? VERY Primitive. We heated water for washing ourselves on a wood stove. The men could pee over the edge of the floating area, whenever we needed. grin Women, in private, used a bucket. frown Needless to say, there was no flush, then.

FINALLY!
Now, there is a flush, such as it is--and a bath, and a shower. But, in my opinion, there is still need for more ... space and improvement. Well, as to the kind of space, I will leave it to your imagination.

As I indicated above, refrigeration is always a challenge, but at least one could then, and can now, jig a fresh fish for dinner, anytime--AND I DID!

There is plenty of fish and crab in the pacific ocean just beyond the cove.

FAMOUS, TALENTED, BUT NOT RICH ARTISTS, YET. PATRONS WELCOME!
BTW, every second year, Catherine--she is a writer, a performing artist (actor, singer, dancer), painter, carver)--and sometimes Wayne--comes to Toronto, and area. The come to visit friends and to connect with art dealers. They both have quite a number of their pieces in the Thompson Art Gallery, Toronto.

FROM FREEDOM COVE, HERE IS ANOTHER TEN-MINUTE POINT OF VIEW:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tIkzvloehc

HOW WE ALL, IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, SUPPORT THE ARTS
In return for what they give us, we all support creative artists, in one way or another. My only two children are both creative artists.

BTW, whenever we go to the movies, watch TV, listen to the radio, read a paper, a magazine, a book, or even buy products advertised in same, whatever, we all support the arts, in one way or another, whether we know it or not. How about you?

Last edited by Revlgking; 09/07/11 04:42 AM. Reason: Always a good idea!

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There is way too much here to read so pardon me if this is in page 30 or so. If not, everyone should read about Jacob Boehme.

He had a vision of creation and didn't have a way to express what he saw. Quantum physics may have been the language he was looking for. He drew a chart called the Tree of Life that looks a lot like human DNA.

This is an interesting read, if you can accept the link. I don't read much of this kind of stuff but found this hard to quit reading.

http://www.tlchrist.info/keyjac.html

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Originally Posted By: LouisMorelli
Mr. Revlgking,
May I ask a question, if you understand my non-native English? ...

... On your belief, there is an intelligent and watching everything “god”. And that god should be our spiritual father. If so, he better do that I don’t reach him, never, because I would sock his face.
[bold italics, mine (LGK)]
Should put him into a prison for eternity. Because he should be at my eyes, a monster. Because a father that abandoned, and worst, tortured, his sons is a monster.

Knowing that since my childhood, I had controlled my instincts, like the sex, for never risking to make a new human being for living this terrible existence. So, we have different views about what must be a father.

Why, you, as a father, agree that your son and daughter must be tortured due their mistakes?
Tortured with cancer, HIV, misery, climate tragedies, sometimes in the mouth of horrible lions, etc.?!!!

How can you watching these scenes, which to me should be unsupportable?!!! You are a monster, sir, I think it, sorry.

No matter what kind of mistakes my offspring could do, I never should agree and permitting this kind of punishment with torture.

And you accept it, so, sorry, I think you, as religious, theist and creationists, are like monsters. It justify the human behavior as predators of other human beings.

The Earth’s biosphere is a creation in a chaotic state of nature. I learned it very well living at the heart of Amazon jungle, watching the principles of nature.

We, human beings are sons of chaos. The chaos produces these things as predators and prays. So, the human social system is shared between predators and prays. I understand it. But…

I think that we should to make a war against our absurd natural inheritance, against the animal that still live inside us.

I think we need wish to be something else, more powerful than matter, more elegant, don’t mirroring our samples and copying the salvage world, searching the another state of nature for our offspring, the ordered state.

But, while there are predators and people that are friends of our fundamentals enemies – like your ghost irresponsible and not human “god” – instead being only Humanist, doing everything possible for helping each human being to reach a better life, the chaos state and our animal tracts, remains.

That’s why I think yours ideas and world vision also are the cause for the suffering of at least 6 billion persons.

What do you have to say, if I deserve your response?
Louis, please note: Above, I quote your comments--in short paragraphs--so that they can be read easily. Are the comments to and about me?

Louis: I assume you speak Portuguese, right? Please note: Google.com will translate most languages.
==============================================
You ask me: "What do you have to say ... ?

I begin with the question I asked above: Are you writing to and about me? Unless I have lost my mind, nothing you say, to me and about me, relates to me and to what I know and think about myself.

Bill S, Bill, Redewenur, Ellis, others I have known and our moderators: What is your opinion?


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Originally Posted By: Max
There is way too much here to read so pardon me if this is in page 30 or so. If not, everyone should read about Jacob Boehme. ...
Max, I like this from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakob_B%C3%B6hme
And about his theology
Quote:
Another place where Böhme may depart from accepted theology (though this was open to question due to his somewhat obscure, oracular style) was in his description of the Fall as a necessary stage in the evolution of the Universe. A difficulty with his theology is the fact that he had a mystical vision, which he reinterpreted and reformulated.

According to F. von Ingen, to Böhme, in order to reach God, man has to go through hell first. God exists without time or space, he regenerates himself through eternity, so Böhme, who restates the trinity as truly existing but with a novel interpretation. God, the Father is fire, who gives birth to his son, whom Böhme calls light. The Holy Spirit is the living principle, or the divine life.] I, LGK, like this. This why I prefer to use the acronyms G0d, in me; and GOD--the matrix which contains the total, and expanding, cosmos, including us.

However, it is clear that Böhme never claimed that God sees evil as desirable, necessary or as part of divine will to bring forth good. In his Threefold Life, Böhme states: "In the order of nature, an evil thing cannot produce a good thing out of itself, but one evil thing generates another." Böhme did not believe that there is any "divine mandate or metaphysically inherent necessity for evil and its effects in the scheme of thing."

Dr. John Pordage, a commentator on Böhme, wrote that Böhme "whensoever he attributes evil to eternal nature considers it in its fallen state, as it became infected by the fall of Lucifer... ." Evil is seen as "the disorder, rebellion, perversion of making spirit nature's servant", which is to say a perversion of initial Divine order.


Last edited by Revlgking; 09/07/11 07:47 PM. Reason: a

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GOD & Company, Inc.

The above title is one I will probably use when I post some of this information in my blog at www.wondercafe.com etc.
By the way, Wondercafe.com was set up by the United Church of Canada (UCC). It is open to all decent people. So is:
http://www.united-church.ca/
Also, check out our non-churchy and secular kind of magazine, The United Church Observer
http://www.ucobserver.org/ The Observer is not an organ of the church, per se. If you write this magazine and do not find a welcome, please let me know.

WELCOME TO ALL RACES, CREEDS AND CLASSES
The UCC, WonderCafe and the Observer are not just for churchy-type people. Gracious people of all races, classes and creeds are welcome. This includes you. All we ask is that you not be abusive. Sure we Christians--ones who like to practice agape-love--make no claim to be perfect, but we do like to practice the Golden Rule. How about you?

When anyone tells me: "The church is full of hypocrites ..." I always tell them: "Come along! There is always room for more!!! :grin laugh Please, always allow for the hypocrites among us. Most of us are just practicing Christians, not perfected ones. smile
=========================
Perhaps, in the light of the recent and interesting flurry of comments from new, and very welcome, posters, this title above could be the title of a new thread. But for now, I will simply ask readers here to: Think of this thread as as a sub-thread of the MAIN one.

CORPORATION--The Firm, The Company
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation

Keep in mind that corporations come in all sizes, shapes and forms. Note, also, that the root word is 'corpse'--body. Christians--often speak of the Church as the Body of Christ. I confess, it often behaves like a corrupt body, or even like a 'dead' body, but the principle still holds. Meanwhile, there is so much more to be said ...


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I did not read all of what Louismorelli had to say but I believe he was upset at the disparity of opportunity that there is between all of us on the planet. He then denies that there is a god and if there is he/she does not deserve his (morelli's ) respect and belief because of the amount of suffering there is in the world.

I agree that for greater clarity, he should use google translator, but I could not type anything at all in another language so I feel I should not criticise. I feel sympathy for his rage, but he has chosen his target badly in you, Rev, for many reasons. He assumes that your life has been without struggle and that you are now without doubt. He certainly can never have read your descriptions of your faith, which I must admit I do not always understand or appreciate, but I know that you are sincere and still exploring areas of faith and belief. I feel morrelli is searching for something and he is finding that questioning his own religious beliefs is very destabalising to him. I am at a loss as to why he singled out you to personally attack. Perhaps he just does not like any person whom he feels represents the authority of the church, ...any church.

Personally I feel that the post does not relate to you personally. I only know you from this site but you are sincere in your beliefs and always open to dialogue with others who do not share them. Also I have never seen you indulge or provoke a personal attack on anyone here. morelli has the wrong guy I think.

That said I do think that the subject of his post--- Why does god allow suffering ?-- is a valid one to debate, though maybe not here.

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Thanks! And well said, Ellis.

By the way, I have been on line, and writing in forums like this since 1997. Long ago, I learned to welcome all responses--positive, negative or otherwise--as opportunities for me to learn how to take all comments and, in return, to write a fair-minded response based on the principle of agape-love and the Golden Rule.

Ellis I assume that by now you know what I have in mind when I say there are three basic kinds of love: soma-based eros-love; psyche-based philia-love and pneuma-based agape-love. If not, let's have a dialogue.

I have no problem admitting that--as a young student of general arts and theology ( www.mta.ca 1947-1951)--when I was first introduced to the study of New Testament Greek (and I still refer to my Greek NT when I need to) it was a real eye-opener for me to discover that, in Greek, there are, as I point out above, at least three words for 'love'--a word so loosely used in common English.

DO NOT CONFUSE AGAPE WITH PHILIA AND EROS
Take a look at the following phrases: The Bible says,"God is love" (1 John 4); "...love the Lord God...your neighbour, yourself...your enemies--from Jesus' Sermon on the Mount--Matt. 5-7. I can also say: I love my dog, cat, food, etc.; I love my wife, family, children, my country, my city, mother earth; I love to fight, to get revenge, to hate and even to kill; I love fast cars; I love to make love, and the like.

Surely 'love' cannot possible mean the same thing in all phrases, agreed?

In my opinion, agape-love (the Greek is agape) is a very special kind of love. Anyone: What is its special meaning?




Last edited by Revlgking; 09/08/11 08:41 PM. Reason: Always a good idea!

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Rev, all I know about you is what I have been privileged to learn from your posts, but I have to say that I could not recognise you in Louis Morilli’s comments. Undoubtedly there are many fundamentalists of various religious persuasions who richly deserve his comments, but I would be very surprised if you could be counted among them. Somehow I doubt that punishment and torture would be things you would wish on anyone.


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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Rev, all I know about you is what I have been privileged to learn from your posts, but I have to say that I could not recognize you in Louis Morilli’s comments...
Thanks, Bill.

Now, Louis, agape. When are we going to hear from you?


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Originally Posted By: Rev
Surely 'love' cannot possible mean the same thing in all phrases, agreed?


Then there is "diligere", which I believe means to respect in modern Italian, but in latin is usually translated as to choose. However, back in the days when I was learning latin, longer ago than I care to think about, we were told that this was probably the best word to use for loving God.


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Isn't the Italian for 'love' amore--a la Dean Martini? laugh The French is amour. And what about: amor, amas, amat?


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Aaaah! How romantic! I never thought I would see debating of the topic All the words for Love ----on Science-a-go-go.

Long may it last!

Last edited by Ellis; 09/09/11 07:34 AM. Reason: clarity
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Rev, since you bring "amare" into the discussion: do you find that when conjugating it, (amo, amas amat.....) you stress the second syllable, which, of course, you don’t do when actually using the verb in a sentence?


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Thanks, Bill. Isn't the Internet wonderful?

Latin, French and Spanish have a lot in common.
==================
Latin and French seems to be closely related

amo: I love
amas: You love
amat: He, She, or It loves
amamus: We love
amatis: You (plural) love
amant: They love
=========
j'aime means I love.

"aimer" in French stands for both 'to like' and 'to love'. j'aime means 'I like' or 'I love'. il aime la salade de pomme de terre > he likes potato salad. elle (she) aime (likes) ...
======================================


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Since we seem to be discussing the language of love; the Welsh verb "to love" is caru. So you might say something like: Maen nhw 'n caru ei gilydd, which is They love each other; but if you wanted to say, "To love doing something"; that would be: Bod yn hoff iawn o wneud rhywbeth. Here the verb is hoffi = to like, with the addition of iawn = very.

I'm not Welsh (I'm Cornish), but I could probably supply pronunciation for anyone mad enough to ask.


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WOW! Now that surprised me. I am Welsh and born in Wales but like many of my generation not Welsh speaking. It is lovely to see the language in SAGG!

To further the discussion around "caru' I like "cariad', a lovely welsh word meaning 'sweetheart' or 'darling'. My homesick welsh mother called her sweet little australian dog Cariad, which suited her well.

Diolch yn fawr iawn for the memory Bill!

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What is the Welsh, and Cornish for God is love?

BTW, on www.bellisland.net there were at least two families with the name Carew. I assume they were Welsh.


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To my shame I can't manage the Cornish. The Welsh, I think, would be: Mae Duw cariad.

Like Ellis, I am not a Welsh speaker. Some 50 years ago a fellow student decided that he would teach me Welsh. We had little time available, so we didn't get far. Latin and French were on our formal curriculum, but after all these years I think I remember more of the Welsh than of either of the others.


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