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#39097 - 07/20/11 10:28 PM Re: Light From Distant Galaxies. [Re: Bill S.]
Bill 6 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 74
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
I still think you should give us an account of your understanding of the whole tired light theory, including the origin of the Universe. Picking, as we are, at little bits makes it so easy to be sidetracked.

You already have my understanding of the whole tired light theory. As light journeys through space it is intercepted by free matter and loses energy.

In my opinion there was no origin of the universe, I believe that it is infinite in time and space.

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#39098 - 07/20/11 10:30 PM Re: Light From Distant Galaxies. [Re: Bill 6]
Bill Offline
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Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Originally Posted By: Bill 6
How can a person possibly know the difference between the amount of blurring affecting a close up photograph and that of a long distance one unless the camera has been located there?

Well, when I look at a picture of a light in a fog I can easily tell that the picture is blurred by the fog. So when somebody looks at a Hubble picture of a distant galaxy it should be pretty easy to tell if it has been blurred by matter in between.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#39102 - 07/21/11 02:56 AM Re: Light From Distant Galaxies. [Re: Bill 6]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Originally Posted By: Bill 6
Originally Posted By: redewenur
BTW, do you still think we have no way of knowing if the image of a distant galaxy is blurred or not, despite the HUDF images?

Those images are just as affected by any free matter in outer space as are those of our personal telescopes.

Originally Posted By: redewenur
Surely, if blurring has occurred during the several billion lt yr journey, then it must be of an extremely small order. don't you agree?

How can a person possibly know the difference between the amount of blurring affecting a close up photograph and that of a long distance one unless the camera has been located there?

Being of the opinion that there have been no close up photographs of those distant galaxies I have no way of evaluating the extent of any blurring.

You may recall that when the HST was first operated, its images were found to be blurred despite the fact that their definition was superior to images of the same objects taken previously.

"Almost immediately after Hubble went into orbit, it became clear that something was wrong. While the pictures were clearer than those of ground-based telescopes, they weren't the pristine images promised. They were blurry."

http://hubblesite.org/the_telescope/hubble_essentials/

That was rectified by astronauts at a cost of $8m.

In your opinion, should it have been impossible to determine whether the images were blurred or not?
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#39103 - 07/21/11 03:01 AM Re: Light From Distant Galaxies. [Re: Bill]
Bill 6 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 74
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Bill
Well, when I look at a picture of a light in a fog I can easily tell that the picture is blurred by the fog. So when somebody looks at a Hubble picture of a distant galaxy it should be pretty easy to tell if it has been blurred by matter in between.

Bill Gill

There is a difference between whether blurring takes place or not and the AMOUNT of blurring!

When you look at a picture of a light in a fog you are aware of the fact that there is a fog and that the image of the light is blurred by that fog. You might base the amount of blurring perhaps on other pictures involving less dense fogs or fog free instances however there has never been images of distant galaxies taken without intervening matter ergo the amount of blurring is, at this stage, indeterminable.

An undeniable fact is is that there is matter in outer space between us and distant galaxies and this mustcreate some blurring via scattering.

However I remain of the opinion that the tired light concept relates specifically to the frequency of light not its intensity (I trust I have the terminology correct).

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#39104 - 07/21/11 03:52 AM Re: Light From Distant Galaxies. [Re: Bill 6]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Bill 6: "It is my understanding that scattering has no relationship to redshift but only to sharpness (or blurring)."

So, to recap, while you have no idea what causes the redshift, you're sure that it's not recessional velocity?
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#39105 - 07/21/11 06:12 AM Re: Light From Distant Galaxies. [Re: redewenur]
Bill 6 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 74
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: redewenur
So, to recap, while you have no idea what causes the redshift, you're sure that it's not recessional velocity?

I believe that my comment to the effect that when light travels via the random matter in space and creates an increase in that matter's temperature leaving itself slightly energy depleted - i.e. redshifted - IS an expression of my opinion as to what causes the redshift!

I made NO suggestion that the redshift is not due to recessional velocity but pointed out that the energy loss may RESULT in recessional velocity!

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#39106 - 07/21/11 06:34 AM Re: Light From Distant Galaxies. [Re: redewenur]
Bill 6 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 74
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: redewenur
In your opinion, should it have been impossible to determine whether the images were blurred or not?

In my opinion this part of the discussion has deteriorated into a childish point-scoring competition.

I have pointed out that my argument is in relation to redshifted light NOT blurred light so if you wish to continue in that vein you do so alone as far as I'm concerned!

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#39107 - 07/21/11 08:58 AM Re: Light From Distant Galaxies. [Re: Bill 6]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
I have intended my questions to be simple, clear and reasonable, Bill. For all I know, you could be right and the Standard Cosmological Model could be wrong. It's regrettable that you are offended by posts that question your beliefs.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#39110 - 07/22/11 01:31 AM Re: Light From Distant Galaxies. [Re: redewenur]
Bill 6 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 74
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: redewenur
It's regrettable that you are offended by posts that question your beliefs.

I find no offense in posts that question my beliefs only in the way in which some of them are expressed.

I made no suggestion that your post to which I responded questioned my beliefs hence your comment is unwarranted.

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#39116 - 07/22/11 02:52 PM Re: Light From Distant Galaxies. [Re: Bill 6]
Bill S. Offline
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Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: Bill 6
In my opinion there was no origin of the universe, I believe that it is infinite in time and space.


This is the bit that fascinates me. It is also the bit with which I have had lots of problems. I have something akin to a clear picture in my head about it, but it is phenomenally difficult to keep a discussion of the subject in track.
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There never was nothing.

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#39117 - 07/22/11 04:23 PM Re: Light From Distant Galaxies. [Re: Bill 6]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Originally Posted By: Bill 6
Originally Posted By: redewenur
It's regrettable that you are offended by posts that question your beliefs.

I find no offense in posts that question my beliefs only in the way in which some of them are expressed.

I made no suggestion that your post to which I responded questioned my beliefs hence your comment is unwarranted.

That post and just about all of my posts in this thread question your beliefs on this topic. Be that as it may, I have no desire to annoy you, inadvertently or otherwise, so I'm pleased to let it drop. Actually, I'm inclined to think that you're right regarding time being without beginning and end, although I don't think it rules out the Big Bang.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#39118 - 07/22/11 05:34 PM Re: Light From Distant Galaxies. [Re: redewenur]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: Rede
Actually, I'm inclined to think that you're right regarding time being without beginning and end, although I don't think it rules out the Big Bang.


Oh dear! The dreaded infinite series is making a comeback.

You know I have to take issue with this. Time, without beginning or end, is an infinite series, which is a mathematical concept that can never be demonstrated in physical reality.
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#39121 - 07/22/11 06:42 PM Re: Light From Distant Galaxies. [Re: Bill S.]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
You know I have to take issue with this. Time, without beginning or end, is an infinite series, which is a mathematical concept that can never be demonstrated in physical reality.

Oh, I don't mind at all that it can't be demonstrated. It's the concept of time that sits comfortably in my mind.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#39125 - 07/22/11 08:27 PM Re: Light From Distant Galaxies. [Re: redewenur]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: Rede
I don't mind at all that it can't be demonstrated.


Is this not philosophical belief, rather than science?

How do you justify the concept of an infinite series, even as an untestable belief?
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#39126 - 07/22/11 09:37 PM Re: Light From Distant Galaxies. [Re: Bill S.]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Hi Bill S.

It's what I'm "inclined to think", nothing more, nothing less. It's not a matter of science. Not even part of a philosophical or metaphysical system. It's merely something that I lean toward in my personal view. As you'll appreciate, that requires no justification to others. The best I can do, I guess, is to say that I've always had difficulty grasping the idea of a beginning and end to time, whereas infinite time presents no problem to me. That's about it really.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#39128 - 07/23/11 12:00 AM Re: Light From Distant Galaxies. [Re: redewenur]
Bill 6 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 74
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: redewenur
That post and just about all of my posts in this thread question your beliefs on this topic. Be that as it may, I have no desire to annoy you, inadvertently or otherwise...

Whilst just about all of your posts question my beliefs you did not have the decency to state that openly but surreptitiously attempted to conceal your criticism.

It was that devious practice which I found objectionable.


Edited by Bill 6 (07/23/11 12:01 AM)

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#39138 - 07/23/11 12:01 PM Re: Light From Distant Galaxies. [Re: Bill 6]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: Rede
I've always had difficulty grasping the idea of a beginning and end to time, whereas infinite time presents no problem to me.


This sentence would apply to me if you changed the "no" into "a serious".

I'm not sure if I envy your comfort with the idea of infinite time, or if I just suspect that you have stopped short of thinking it through fully.
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#39139 - 07/23/11 01:17 PM Re: Light From Distant Galaxies. [Re: Bill S.]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
I'm not sure if I envy your comfort with the idea of infinite time, or if I just suspect that you have stopped short of thinking it through fully.

Take your pick Bill, I won't hold it against you, he-he.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#39141 - 07/23/11 05:28 PM Re: Light From Distant Galaxies. [Re: redewenur]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: Rede
Take your pick Bill


OK, as long as there are no hard feelings, I'll go for the second option. smile Obviously, that could lead to lots of questions; some of which may have been asked in other threads, but it would be great to get some resolution on this one.

First question: do you accept that a mathematical infinity is not necessarily the same thing as a physical infinity?
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#39150 - 07/24/11 03:55 AM Re: Light From Distant Galaxies. [Re: Bill S.]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Great to get some resolution, you say? Nice to see an optimist aboard.

First answer:

Lazy eight and the word 'infinity' are symbols that can invoke a concept which may differ between individuals. The concept, a mental representation, is not the physical reality, and may or may not represent physical reality. So yes, I accept that.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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