Welcome to
Science a GoGo's
Discussion Forums
Please keep your postings on-topic or they will be moved to a galaxy far, far away.
Your use of this forum indicates your agreement to our terms of use.
So that we remain spam-free, please note that all posts by new users are moderated.


The Forums
General Science Talk        Not-Quite-Science        Climate Change Discussion        Physics Forum        Science Fiction

Who's Online
0 registered (), 225 Guests and 0 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Posts
Is there anybody out there?
by paul
12/07/19 03:58 AM
Top Posters (30 Days)
True 1
paul 1
Page 2 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#37616 - 02/28/11 04:10 PM Re: Sea levels will RISE by 80 meters (263 feet). [Re: kallog]
ImagingGeek Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/19/10
Posts: 410
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: kallog
Originally Posted By: ImagingGeek

About 1/3rd of the raid-fed food we consume is produced - yep you guessed it, close to those same bodies of water. So we'd loose food-producing capacity. Most of our internationally-traded goods are transported via ships; we'd have to replace many/all our ports. Same holds true for a lot of our other resources.


Sure. But if the coastline moves, then after sufficient time everything associated with that will move too. Rainy land is near the sea because it's near the sea, shipping ports are near the sea because they're near the sea.


Except that biome changes take 100's of years. Its more than just rainfall that makes those places good areas to farm, but also centuries/millenia of soil deposition and whatnot.

Sea level rises or not, its going to be an issue. Most modern farming techs don't maintain soil quality or quantity. Its already becoming an issue in some areas. Seal level rises will simply accelerate the issue.

Originally Posted By: kallog
Tho I'm not considering farmland here. Sure that might be a serious problem. My point was about populations having to move, which I still think is quite acceptable based on my previous reasoning.


Except that simply moving people is only the first - and easiest - of many issues that will be faced as a result.

Bryan
_________________________
UAA...CAUGCUAUGAUGGAACGAACAAUUAUGGAA

Top
.
#37654 - 03/03/11 02:54 AM Re: Sea levels will RISE by 80 meters (263 feet). [Re: ImagingGeek]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: ImagingGeek

Except that biome changes take 100's of years. Its more than just rainfall that makes those places good areas to


Yea but farmland is a different issue. Although there is the possibility of human intervention to accelerate the process at some cost. We're happy to spend money trying to stop the problem now, so it shouldn't be too hard to spend money adapting to it when it happens.

Quote:

Except that simply moving people is only the first - and easiest - of many issues that will be faced as a result.


Sure, but this topic is about sea level rise displacing people, over a long period of time. It won't often be established people moving, but their descendants when they grow up enough to leave home, they'd buy their new house somewhere further inland. Not particularly different from what they currently do.

Top
#37676 - 03/04/11 04:21 PM Re: Sea levels will RISE by 80 meters (263 feet). [Re: preearth]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
263 feet is a short estimate.

because you or they are not counting the (weight) of the bulging oceans as the sea levels rise.

and they are not counting the (weight)of the land under the melting ice moving further away from the center of rotation of the earth.

and they are not counting the (weight) of the sea water that is displaced by the rebounding land as the ice melts.

therefore they are not counting the earths slowing rotation that will reduce the current bulge of the oceans.

I would not bet on anything lower than a 500 ft sea level rise or possibly even more.

and I wouldnt bet on their time tables either as they do not account for all elements in the equation.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#37677 - 03/04/11 04:33 PM Re: Sea levels will RISE by 80 meters (263 feet). [Re: Ellis]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Hi Ellis
from the looks of the recent news headlines I bet you guys are all building houseboats down under there.

I thought I would reply to this

Quote:
There is virtually no land that waits to be discovered anymore


think of all the new uncharted territory that is slowly being uncovered as the ice melts in greenland and the antartic , wouldnt it be something if ancient cities were exposed by the melting ice.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#37722 - 03/07/11 10:43 AM Re: Sea levels will RISE by 80 meters (263 feet). [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: paul
think of all the new uncharted territory that is slowly being uncovered as the ice melts in greenland and the antartic , wouldnt it be something if ancient cities were exposed by the melting ice.


Just one of the amazing possibilities that this exciting and dramatic change might bring. Who knows what other goodies are in store! People focus too much on the negative just because they fear change, but there will certainly be positives too. We're already seeing the economic benefits of shipping across the arctic.



Edited by kallog (03/07/11 10:47 AM)

Top
#37961 - 03/28/11 05:17 PM Re: Sea levels will RISE by 80 meters (263 feet). [Re: paul]
ImagingGeek Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/19/10
Posts: 410
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: paul
think of all the new uncharted territory that is slowly being uncovered as the ice melts in greenland and the antartic , wouldnt it be something if ancient cities were exposed by the melting ice.


This is unlikely - both the Antartic and Greenland have largely/totally ice-covered for all of human history.

Bryan
_________________________
UAA...CAUGCUAUGAUGGAACGAACAAUUAUGGAA

Top
#37965 - 03/29/11 01:40 AM Re: Sea levels will RISE by 80 meters (263 feet). [Re: ImagingGeek]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
you must mean recorded human history.
or the "records" that are available to look at meaning the
part of earth that is above ground the extremely THIN layer above the boiling hot MAGMA.

I suspect that there are no remnants of the original earths crust still above ground.

the earths crust has probably melted several times in the past.

and what we think is the oldest rock on the earth today is merely a fraction of the age of the molecules that make up its mass.

like when the ice on our poles melt away again and the atmosphere heats up and the earths surface heats up , it will probably melt again.


_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#37969 - 03/29/11 12:22 PM Re: Sea levels will RISE by 80 meters (263 feet). [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: paul
like when the ice on our poles melt away again and the atmosphere heats up and the earths surface heats up , it will probably melt again.

I'd change "probably" to "be unlikely to". Considering it isn't happening on Venus despite the mad greenhouse effect there.

There's subduction and all that, but I had the feeling that the continental crust keeps floating while the ocean floors are continually renewed.

Top
#37970 - 03/29/11 12:52 PM Re: Sea levels will RISE by 80 meters (263 feet). [Re: paul]
ImagingGeek Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/19/10
Posts: 410
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: paul
you must mean recorded human history.

No, all of human history. Physiologically modern homo sapiens origonated in Africa ~200,000 years ago, while so-called "modern" homo sapiens arose somewhere between 30,000 and 50,000 years ago.

Ice cores have shown that Antartica has been completely frozen for at least the past 150,000 years.

That means that in no time since modern homo sapiens arose has the Antarctic lacked ice. Given the paleodata for the ~50,000 year window between the end of the Volstok cores (150,000YA) and when physiologicallly modern humans arose (200,000YA), it is improbable in the extreme that Antarctica was ever ice-free in that period - not that the humans in that era had the technology to reach Antarctica (its ~5000km of open water from the tip of South Africa to Antarctica; the shortest route available to our pre-modern anscestors).

Originally Posted By: paul
I suspect that there are no remnants of the original earths crust still above ground.

You suspect wrong. I live a few km from the place where the oldest dated rock was discovered. It was 4.03 billion years old. My cottage is on Canadian shield; all of which is Archaean gneisses; the first stable crust our earth had. Zircon crystals have been found, dating to ~4.4 billion years ago, meaning they formed at the same time as the earths crust.

Bryan
_________________________
UAA...CAUGCUAUGAUGGAACGAACAAUUAUGGAA

Top
#37995 - 03/31/11 12:13 AM Re: Sea levels will RISE by 80 meters (263 feet). [Re: ImagingGeek]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
Physiologically modern homo sapiens origonated in Africa ~200,000 years ag

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/jul/07/first-humans-britain-stone-tools

Quote:
First humans arrived in Britain 250,000 years earlier than thought
Archaeologists digging on a Norfolk beach found stone tools that show the first humans were living in Britain much earlier than previously thought
................

The stone tools were unearthed from sediments that are thought to have been laid down either 840,000 or 950,000 years ago, making them the oldest human artefacts ever found in Britain.
................
The early Britons would have lived alongside sabre-toothed cats and hyenas, primitive horses, red deer and southern mammoths in a climate similar to that of southern Britain today, though winters were typically a few degrees colder.






Quote:
Man made sphere is 2 billion years old


the oldest hominid is around 7 million years old.

but were talking 2 billion years ago according to the above
dated artifact.

7 million ( fits into ) 2 billion 285 times!!!


Quote:
I suspect that there are no remnants of the original earths crust still above ground.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html

Quote:
Further, the processes of erosion and crustal recycling have apparently destroyed all of the earliest surface.


You should notify them , they might not have looked in canada.


Quote:
think of all the new uncharted territory that is slowly being uncovered as the ice melts in greenland and the antartic , wouldnt it be something if ancient cities were exposed by the melting ice.


http://www.s8int.com/water29.html

Quote:
Medieval maps show Antarctica without ice cover or partly covered with ice. The accuracy of maps of the 16th century is incredible. In terms of the technical means their data can be compared with those of the end of the 18th century and sometimes with those of the 20th century.


people still live in alaska and have been there since
12,000 BC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Alaska


the maps show dry land on antarctica and if there were ships traveling to antarctica when there was dry land to land on.

I would think that there would also be cities that are now
covered in ice.

but I think that way only because Im not pig headed.




_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#37999 - 03/31/11 04:40 PM Re: Sea levels will RISE by 80 meters (263 feet). [Re: paul]
ImagingGeek Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/19/10
Posts: 410
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: paul
but I think that way only because Im not pig headed.

One of my favorite quotes is "Keep an open mind, but not so open your brain falls out"...

...I think you may want to check the floor...

Originally Posted By: paul
Quote:
Physiologically modern homo sapiens origonated in Africa ~200,000 years ag

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/jul/07/first-humans-britain-stone-tools

LOL, try reading your own article (4th paragraph after the video):

The flints were probably left by hunter-gatherers of the human species Homo antecessor

Homo antecessor was not a physiologically modern human. Their brains were ~25% smaller than ours, they were physiologically robust, incapable of complex speech (had not evolved a proper larynx yet) and had sloped foreheads.

Originally Posted By: paul

Quote:
Man made sphere is 2 billion years old


the oldest hominid is around 7 million years old.

but were talking 2 billion years ago according to the above
dated artifact.

Critical thinking isn't your cup of tea, is it...

Firstly, you cannot date when rocks were modified; you can only date when they were formed. So all your date tells us is when that rock formed. It could have been carved into a ball yesterday.

Secondly, and more importantly, your sphere is nothing more than a Klerksdorp sphere; a well understood natural phenomena - simply a concretion within porous rock.

Originally Posted By: paul
the maps show dry land on antarctica and if there were ships traveling to antarctica when there was dry land to land on.

There is "dry land" on Antarctica today; it comprises less than 1% the total land area of Antarctica - just as it did in the 1600's, and just as it did 150,000 years ago. But ice-free does not equal habitable. Nearly all of the ice-free land in the Antarctic consists of nothing more than rocky beaches and gullies, free of all plant life but a few lichens and mosses. Humans cannot live on that.

The two are not even comparable, in regards to human occupancy. In comparison to the Arctic, Antarctica lacks significant plant life, flowing fresh water, and land mammals - all of which are central to life in the Arctic. Likewise, humans walked to the Arctic; the Antarctic requires a 5000km or more trip over the roughest seas on the planet; something beyond the capacities of paleo-tech peoples (and something very difficult by pre-industrial age sailing ships).

Originally Posted By: paul
but I think that way only because Im not pig headed.


Actually, I think its pretty clear you think this way because you don't apply critical thought to the things you read...

Bryan
_________________________
UAA...CAUGCUAUGAUGGAACGAACAAUUAUGGAA

Top
#38007 - 04/01/11 01:02 AM Re: Sea levels will RISE by 80 meters (263 feet). [Re: ImagingGeek]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
Homo antecessor was not a physiologically modern human. Their brains were ~25% smaller than ours, they were physiologically robust, incapable of complex speech (had not evolved a proper larynx yet) and had sloped foreheads.


and heres the evidence


and heres the entire lot


Its easy to tell from the massive complete skeleton pictured above that they had no larynx at all.

so how did they talk to others on the phone?

if a pigheaded archaeologist in the future finds the
below modern human skulls he will probably say the same thing
about them.

open mind LOL
more like slammed shut years ago...

http://www.erichufschmid.net/Neanderthals/More-Neanderthals-4.html



I wonder how dumb and stupid future archaeologist would say that we were because of our wierdly shaped skulls.



Quote:
Klerksdorp spheres are small objects, often spherical to disc-shaped, that have been collected by miners and rockhounds from 3-billion-year-old pyrophyllite deposits mined by Wonderstone Ltd., near Ottosdal, South Africa.


So over the years the minners who had nothing else to do
just spent all day carving the rings around these stones
before they were pulled from the 3 billion year old pyrophyllite deposits
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klerksdorp_sphere

they should consider getting jobs as magicians and leave mining to regular people.

critical thought certainly is something you have talked about.



Quote:
but that the map shows the coastline under the ice. Geological evidence confirms that the latest date Queen Maud Land could have been charted in an ice-free state is 4000 BC.


http://www.ancientdestructions.com.au/site/destructions/piri-reis-antarctica-map.php


but just to rub it in a bit have a look at the below map
that clearly shows that the antartic was not ice covered.

given that the antartic was supposed to be covered in 2000
meter deep ice on average as it is today , how could anyone have envisioned or imagined that the antartic would be 2 large land masses.

http://www.diegocuoghi.it/Piri_Reis/Buache_eng.htm

heres a image of what the antarctic would look like
if there was no ice on it.

minus any upheaval of the land because of the ice melting away.

http://www.zonu.com/fullsize-en/2009-11-18-11159/Antarctica-topography-and-bathymetry-2008.html



and this is what it looks like today


http://www.bugbog.com/maps/polar_regions/antarctic_circle_map.html

I choose to allow my open mind to look at the evidence
found in the past before I pigheadedly decide things
without looking.

but thats just me.













_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#39078 - 07/18/11 08:12 AM Re: Sea levels will RISE by 80 meters (263 feet). [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
Megastar

Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Actually the figure keeps getting revised down.

You can check the calcs at NASA website.

Comment by Donald P. Wylie on May 13, 1999
"Interesting example. Regarding the comment at the end that coast lines are not vertical so the estimate of sea level rise is less than calculated, there is a way to estimate a minimum amount of sea level rise. The earth has only 25% of its surface in land above water. If the melted ice sheets covered all land, than the calculation of sea level rise would be reduced by 75%. So the predicted ~80 meter rise in sea level would be ~60 meter if all of the earth's surface were covered with ocean. Therefore, the sea level rise estimate is between 60 and 80 meters. Even 60 meters is a lot in my book.

Expanded on by Claire L. Parkinson Response:
The suggestion made by Donald Wylie is very nice. Elaborating on it, I suggest the following: A lower bound to the amount of sea level rise can readily be estimated by conceptually spreading the water from the ice sheets over the entire globe instead of just over the ocean area of the globe. When this is done, the minimum global sea level rise from the Greenland ice sheet would be (2,343,728 cubic kilometers)/(surface area of the Earth) and that from the Antarctic ice sheet would be (26,384,368 cubic kilometers)/(surface area of the Earth). Inserting the 510,073,000 square kilometer surface area of the globe from the "Hammond Citation World Atlas" (Hammond, Maplewood, New Jersey, 1992, p.352), the results are lower bounds of 4.6 meters of sea level rise from the Greenland ice sheet and 51.7 meters of sea level rise from the Antarctic ice sheet, for a total of 56.3 meters of sea level rise from both ice sheets together."


The agreed up bound is around 61m assuming an ice free world.
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

Top
#39079 - 07/18/11 09:51 AM Re: Sea levels will RISE by 80 meters (263 feet). [Re: Orac]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: Orac
51.7 meters of sea level rise from the Antarctic


I'm just looking forwards to all the interesting stuff that might be uncovered when it melts! It'll be a whole new unexplored continent.

Top
#39081 - 07/18/11 07:02 PM Re: Sea levels will RISE by 80 meters (263 feet). [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
I have found a even better way to get a lower estimate , if we calculate in the surface area of the moon and estimate that all of the melting ice would go to the moon then there would be no sea level rise at all.

so there it is , no sea level rise predicted.

voila!!
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#39084 - 07/19/11 03:03 AM Re: Sea levels will RISE by 80 meters (263 feet). [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: paul
and estimate that all of the melting ice would go to the moon then there would be no sea level rise at all.


Heh, yes, Orac's lower estimate is kind of meaningless without further explanation. The fact that the sea level hasn't risen by that amount proves it can rise less, so any lower bound greater than zero is immediately proved wrong.

Unless it's a lower bound _if_ all the polar ice melts. But even then, what if it does go to the moon? Or evaporate. I guess the more global warming we have, the more sea water will be retained in the atmosphere.

Top
#39085 - 07/19/11 03:51 AM Re: Sea levels will RISE by 80 meters (263 feet). [Re: kallog]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Originally Posted By: kallog
[I guess the more global warming we have, the more sea water will be retained in the atmosphere.
yes

1 repeat
2 more sea water retained in the atmosphere >> more global warming
3 more global warming >> more sea water retained in the atmosphere
4 until sea water = 0
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Top
#39086 - 07/19/11 12:02 PM Re: Sea levels will RISE by 80 meters (263 feet). [Re: redewenur]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: redewenur

4 until sea water = 0


Heh, so the lower bound of sea level rise would be negative 12km :P

Top
#39089 - 07/20/11 12:23 AM Re: Sea levels will RISE by 80 meters (263 feet). [Re: kallog]
Orac Offline
Megastar

Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
The original OP is very specific in what he was saying and discussing which is an >>> ICE FREE WORLD <<< in which we could actually possibly still live so it can't look like mercury or the sun.

I was simply adding in the calculated upper and lower bounds of an ice free world assuming the laws of physics actually still exist.

You want to keep adding water into air beyond it's saturation point or send it to the moon I am not sure I can help you with that calculation.

My mistake was actually wasting my time having anything to do with a climate change debate because of the usual types that frequent them.
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

Top
#39091 - 07/20/11 05:51 AM Re: Sea levels will RISE by 80 meters (263 feet). [Re: Orac]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: Orac
My mistake was actually wasting my time having anything to do with a climate change debate because of the usual types that frequent them.


Haha, you only just realized that? I discovered it years ago when I started hearing about global warming, and everybody I talked to had already formed a silly opinion out of nothing.

You can't expect much more for such a speculative topic. Global warming doesn't have a clear direct impact on any of us. Nobody really knows what's going on. That's why people have to resort to beliefs and making up bits of reasoning to give themselves something to hang their personal idealism on.

So I basically have no respect for the topic - it's a free-for-all.

Top
Page 2 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >



Newest Members
debbieevans, bkhj, jackk, Johnmattison, RacerGT
865 Registered Users
Sponsor
Facebook

We're on Facebook
Join Our Group

Science a GoGo's Home Page | Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Contact Us
Features | News | Books | Physics | Space | Climate Change | Health | Technology | Natural World

Copyright © 1998 - 2016 Science a GoGo and its licensors. All rights reserved.