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by paul
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#37786 - 03/12/11 07:22 PM Re: Run of the River [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
there was an old turbine that was used that was basicaly a pipe that rotated horizontaly , the water was fed into the center of the pipe and with a very small head pressure was able to develope 100 % efficiency and above by directing the water out of the two ends of the rotating pipe at a 90 degree angle to the pipe.

strangely enough I cannot find it anymore on the internet but there was a page that had pictures and test data.

it was built in the 1800's I think.

the reason it worked so well was that the water pressure that entered the pipe at the center developed into higher pressure due to the resulting rotation of the pipe from the lower initial water pressure.

so a small head pressure became a head pressure that was much greater.







Edited by paul (03/12/11 07:23 PM)
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#37812 - 03/14/11 01:37 PM Re: Run of the River [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
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Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: paul
pressure was able to develope 100 % efficiency and above by directing the water out of the two ends of the


Another earth-shattering discovery that was too unimportant to do anything about. Don't you think it's strange that you happen to be both the only person to make such discoveries, and also the only person who doesn't care to make use of them?

Anyway, it still exists, it's called a lawn sprinkler :P

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#37813 - 03/14/11 03:55 PM Re: Run of the River [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
I posted the web page on this forum years ago.
its not like I just discovered something new , all I did was
post info on a type of water turbine that obviously was capable of overunity according to the web site.

I found a few pages related to the turbine.

its called a scotch turbine and heres the links.

scroll down to find it



Page 1
REACTION-TYPEHYDRAULIC TURBINECA. 1850


more



and your too important to do anything about really does not matter , I have watched as many really great ideas that would have reduced energy demands just dissapeared.

but explain one thing to me if you will.

how could water pressure increase in the pipe if energy is required to accelerate water.

yet there was no additional power added to accelerate the water after it entered the pipe.

of course if you just held the pipe and kept it from rotating then the water inside the pipe would not accelerate faster due to the rotation of the pipe and there would be no increase in water pressure , much like every single water power application in use today , they all use a stationary nozzle that focuses pressurized water onto a rotor.

theres never a water pressure increase unless the head pressure increases.

but by putting the nozzles on the rotor you get extra pressure because the water must accelerate faster
as it moves outward to the nozzles and the further the water has to move outwards to the nozzles the faster the water must travel to reach the nozzles.

because of this the velocity of the water when it reaches the nozzles can be higher or faster than the velocity of the water when it initialy entered the pipe.


all of the examples above have a large orifice that allows
the water to freely flow out of the pipe , but if you reduce the orifice size and use multiple pipes and nozzles the water pressure will build inside each of the pipes and the water pressure inside each pipe will increase because the waters movement is restricted due to the small orifice.
http://www.morriscanal.org/tech.htm





Quote:
The Inclined Plane was powered by using water from the upper level of the canal to run a huge Reaction Turbine located in a chamber beneath the powerhouse. This powerful machine could move the wheeled cradle car and Canal Boat loaded with 70 tons of coal, from a dead stop, up the plane, over the summit and down into the upper level of the canal. Once used, water was carried away from the turbine chamber in a Tailrace Tunnel that led back into the canal at the bottom of the plane. From the powerhouse, the Plane Tender controlled the operation by adjusting the speed of the turbine and tightening a brake on the cable winding drum shaft. At Plane 9 West, boats were raised or lowered 100 vertical feet in about 15 minutes.
Water was brought to the powerhouse from the upper level of the canal in a headrace flume that ended just behind the building at the level of the second floor. A valve allowed the water to be dropped about 50 feet through a penstock pipe to the turbine chamber and up into the turbine from below. Jets of water from the turbine rotorís four curved nozzles force it to turn at approximately 67 RPM. A drive shaft attached to the rotor was geared to the cable winding drum in the powerhouse overhead.


50 ft is 21 psi water pressure.









Edited by paul (03/14/11 05:24 PM)
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#37827 - 03/16/11 04:40 AM Re: Run of the River [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
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Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: paul
its called a scotch turbine and heres the links.

I tried reading some of those but can't find anything about it violating the 1st law of thermodynamics. Where does it make that claim?

I still can't get my head around your way of thinking. Such ideas would, as I've said before, make somebody richer than God. There's no person, organisation or government in the world powerful enough to block development of such simple, cheap and unlimited power. Come on, nobody could stop DPRK building nuclear weapons, why aren't they using perpetual motion too?

Havn't you ever considered that the reason so many ideas never end up in use is simply because they don't work? We don't see the many prototypes, the long hours of desk work, the piles of money, the experimental results, all the stuff that goes into failed ideas. Typically all we see in museums is the origins of the successful ones.

Anyway, what's your progress on the propane tank experiment?

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#37830 - 03/16/11 02:19 PM Re: Run of the River [Re: kallog]
Bill Offline
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Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Kallog, you should know by now that Paul won't listen, so you might as well quit feeding him. He is thoroughly convinced that scientists are keeping all of these impossible schemes from being used. He won't pay any attention to the fact that people have been coming up with them for hundreds of years, but nobody has ever gotten one of them to work. So as many people have said on forums, stop feeding the trolls.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#37833 - 03/16/11 05:37 PM Re: Run of the River [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
I tried reading some of those but can't find anything about it violating the 1st law of thermodynamics.


thats why I posted the negative remarks , the web site that I
posted years ago did in fact state that the turbine approached 100% efficiency , and they were not using the available pressure build up inside the pipes.

the web site also stated that there were concerns about the turbine violating thermodynamics but there was also a section covering this.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#37834 - 03/16/11 05:56 PM Re: Run of the River [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Bill
I think you should stick to contemplating time travel and
things of that type.

you seem to be very knowledgeable about things that have not yet been proven when time travel is in play.

and you throughly believe that time travel is possible.

and in books on tv and in the minds of countless millions of people not to mention the millions that have been spent on trying to find methods of time travel , not once has anyone ever proven that time travel is possible.

so there you go , do you have a mirror?

if so read what you said about me while looking into it.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#37835 - 03/16/11 06:05 PM Re: Run of the River [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
what's your progress on the propane tank experiment?


I have the tanks already.

I need a propane fill valve that will work on the tanks.

and I need to figure a way to use water inside the tank as the propane tanks are heavy.

I think that I will only use 1 propane tank and some pvc pipe with a valve , and let the pressurized air push the water through a nozzle from 1 pipe into another pipe.

this way the mass movement will be much greater.



_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#37838 - 03/16/11 08:35 PM Re: Run of the River [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
Megastar

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Paul,
Where do you get the idea that I believe in time travel? I am aware that there are some physics researchers doing theoretical studies of the possibility of time travel, but they are looking at things that are not very probable. As far as I know none of them have come up with anything that is much more than speculation.

In the mean time none of them have come up with any kind of speculation that perpetual motion is possible.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#37843 - 03/17/11 03:43 AM Re: Run of the River [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: paul

I need a propane fill valve that will work on the tanks.

and I need to figure a way to use water inside the tank as the propane tanks are heavy.


I think just air will work because there's no friction while its hardly moving so a tiny force is enough. Just try it. Fill a tank with air, put it in the bath, open the valve, see if it drifts away.

So you just need to buy a filling valve then you can fill it with air? Come on!!! Go shopping!! I'm sure that'll come in handy for lots of other things too, so it's not wasted money.


Quote:

I think that I will only use 1 propane tank and some pvc pipe with a valve , and let the pressurized air push the water through a nozzle from 1 pipe into another pipe.


That's going to take ages. Just do it the easiest way! It doesn't have to be powerful, all it has to do is move the length of the system, no matter how slow it is. In fact it doesn't even have to move that far, once you tell me the mass of air and tanks I'll work out a much shorter upper limit on my predicted distance of travel.



Edited by kallog (03/17/11 03:44 AM)

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#37849 - 03/17/11 06:24 PM Re: Run of the River [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
I think just air will work because there's no friction while its hardly moving so a tiny force is enough.


just air would probably work , but Im not sure how much compressed air one of the lantern sized coleman propane tanks can hold as far as pressure is concerned.

I dont want to become a martyr in the process.

and a jet of water would be much more powerfull that a jet of air.

and the thing quickly moving across a small pond would be more impressive than watching it barely moving in a bath tub.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#37871 - 03/19/11 03:08 AM Re: Run of the River [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: paul

tanks can hold as far as pressure is concerned.

Of course you have to find out the pressure rating no matter what tank it is, don't just guess!

Quote:

and the thing quickly moving across a small pond would be more impressive than watching it barely moving in a bath tub.

No it won't!! anything moving more than what the law of conservation of momentum says would be impressive enough to turn the world on its head! Stop making excuses and do it!

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#37895 - 03/20/11 11:48 PM Re: Run of the River [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
anything moving more than what the law of conservation of momentum says


and how far would that be?


Quote:
impressive enough to turn the world on its head


as I said before its not that it would break any laws , its just that the laws newton wrote have been translated wrongly.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#37902 - 03/21/11 06:58 AM Re: Run of the River [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: paul

and how far would that be?

The maximum distance is length of the system. If the mass of air being blown is less than the total mass, or the air doesn't start off all at one end and end up all at the other end, then the theoretical maximum distance will be less. In a practical system with metal tanks, I expect the distance to be barely visible.

Quote:
as I said before its not that it would break any laws , its just that the laws newton wrote have been translated wrongly.

It's the same thing. If all physicists are misinterpreting Newton's laws then it's those misinterpretations that are now the 'laws'. Finding a different interpretation would still be spectacular and lead to all sorts of new technologies.

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#37904 - 03/21/11 01:59 PM Re: Run of the River [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
The maximum distance is length of the system


So if I can get the thing to move further than the length of the system then it will violate the laws of physicists?

suppose its a short but very wide system that consist of a 2" pipe and the pipe moves sideways?

so it would only need to move past the 2" law boundary to break the laws of physicists.





_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#37910 - 03/21/11 10:44 PM Re: Run of the River [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
I don't quite understand, but whatever the length is in the direction of motion is the upper limit. If it goes sideways then use the sideways length.

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