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#35147 - 06/24/10 04:34 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: paul]
ImagingGeek Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/19/10
Posts: 410
Loc: Canada
I thought your scientific credibility couldn't sink any lower - and then you go and say something like this:
Originally Posted By: paul
but reactionless propulsion is a fact.

Every real physicist on the planet disagrees with you. Reactionless drives are a physical impossibility, defying Newtons laws, conservation of momentum, and general relativity.

You're "model" is properly termed an oscillation thruster. It is well understood to be a physical impossibility - no matter how fast/slow you move your masses, or in whatever configuration they are moved, the total momentum will always balance out to zero.

Some other sources, explaining why your system will not work. You'll notice that their arguments are the same as kellogs and mine:
*Atomic rockets: reactionless drives
*NASA's list of common propulsion errors
*Mathpages description of oscillation drives

Physics: 1,000,000,000,000. Paul: 0.

Bryan
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#35148 - 06/24/10 04:43 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: ImagingGeek]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
I dont care what you think imagegeek , I already told you that.

your the one who thinks the pipe wont move at all and
the only proof you have is the misconceptions of newtons laws.

I dont believe that I want to discuss this any further with either of you.

perhaps there are other forums that have inteligent people
in them that can discuss this in an inteligent manner
vs those in this forum who dont even appear inteligent.

only brainwashed.
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#35149 - 06/24/10 04:49 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: paul

your right you just added wrong.

you forgot to add the +6 2nd turn at the end.


Add what? This whole idea of adding up made-up forces applied at different times, and for different durations, is totally meaningless. I'm just showing these additions to emphasise that you can get different results through the same process. Therefore the process is wrong.

I've already detailed my calculations that show the overall motion of the pipe a couple of times. You can go through them and search for faults if you like.

But why don't you produce any actual calculations? I understand if you don't have the skill to do that, but I think you do have a reasonable workshop, and surely the skill to build a prototype of this thing. All you need is some pipes, magnets, maybe some little wheels or an air blower. All cheap easy stuff. That'll be far more powerfully convincing than any explanation.

Keep it secret if you're genuinely scared the CIA will shoot you. Then secretly release a video of it - you know, the way Bin Laden secretly released videos without revealing where he was.

By the way, they can already track you through your posts on here. So it's too late, better get your will written and start winding up your bank accounts and so on.

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#35150 - 06/24/10 05:00 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: ImagingGeek]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: ImagingGeek


Haha, I wish I'd bothered to look it up. Hey Paul somebody else already invented it sorry!

But I realised Paul's device does do something, it spins around, faster and faster, while at the same time oscillating along its length. Would really spill your coffee if you're the poor astronaut tasked with flying it to Alpha Centuri.

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#35151 - 06/24/10 06:54 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: paul]
ImagingGeek Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/19/10
Posts: 410
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: paul
I dont care what you think imagegeek , I already told you that.

your the one who thinks the pipe wont move at all and
the only proof you have is the misconceptions of newtons laws.

I dont believe that I want to discuss this any further with either of you.

Paul, I've provided citations from experts in the field - rocket engineers, NASA and mathematicians who specialize in this kind of stuff.

They all say you're full of [censored].

I don't give a crap what you think of my "opinion"; the simple reality is the entierty of the scientific community says you're wrong, the physics support that, and you have not presented one iota of evidence that counters any of those claims - be them mine, or NASA's.

As the saying goes - put up, or shut up1

Bryan

1 By which I mean, provide evidence that counters the evidence/math in the citations I provided
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#35152 - 06/24/10 06:55 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: kallog]
ImagingGeek Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/19/10
Posts: 410
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: kallog

But I realised Paul's device does do something, it spins around, faster and faster, while at the same time oscillating along its length. Would really spill your coffee if you're the poor astronaut tasked with flying it to Alpha Centuri.


LOL, so paul's basically invented an orbiting clothes washer...or paint mixer...

Bryan
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#35153 - 06/24/10 07:27 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: paul]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
I dont believe that I want to discuss this any further with either of you.
reactionless propulsion
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#35154 - 06/24/10 07:32 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: paul]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
I dont believe that I want to discuss this any further with either of you.
canoe with reactionless propulsion
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3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#35156 - 06/24/10 07:49 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: paul]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
I dont believe that I want to discuss this any further with either of you.

Mit potential energy to kinetic energy
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#35158 - 06/25/10 03:55 AM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: paul
I dont believe that I want to discuss this any further with either of you.


Translation: "I realize it can't work, but I'm too proud to admit I was wrong."

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#35162 - 06/25/10 03:30 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: kallog]
ImagingGeek Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/19/10
Posts: 410
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: kallog
Translation: "I realize it can't work, but I'm too proud to admit I was wrong."



GOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!
wink

Bryan
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#37701 - 03/05/11 06:50 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
#34780 - June 07, 2010 10:54 PM

Quote:
"It doesn't continue to move, it stops. The pipe had momentum while it was moving, but it soon transfers that to the internal gasses travelling in the opposite direction, stopping them both."


how does the pipe stop?
what causes the pipe to stop?

the air is released from the tank causing the pipe to move due to the mass of air escaping the tank.

the air inside the pipe and tank equalize.

there is no force applied to the pipe that could stop the pipe.

if so then what force and where?





Edited by paul (03/05/11 06:54 PM)
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3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#37708 - 03/06/11 04:36 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Hello again Paul smile


Originally Posted By: paul
#34780 - June 07, 2010 10:54 PM
the air inside the pipe and tank equalize.

there is no force applied to the pipe that could stop the pipe.

if so then what force and where?


This all sounds familiar. The 'what force' is the force of the air hitting the pipe. 'where' is all over the inside of the pipe, but more on the back end because that was moving towards the air and crashed into it at a higher relative velocity than the other parts of the pipe.

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#37710 - 03/06/11 04:57 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
Quote:
but more on the back end because that was moving towards the air and crashed into it at a higher relative velocity than the other parts of the pipe.


if you release pressurized air into outer space from a space ship do you think the air would travel in a straight line?

no! the air would expand greatly because it is at a higher pressure and is entering a low pressure area.


the force of air inside the pipe on its sides would not apply a force that would stop the pipe.

and remember the end of the pipe is 500 ft away.

so by the time the air reaches the end of the pipe it has diffused into a 50 inch diameter cross section over the entire 500 ft length of the pipe.

so there may be a tiny amount of force applied to the end of the pipe 500 ft away from the nozzle where the air comes out of the tank , but hardly enough to slow the pipe much less stop the pipe.

because as the air mass is moving out of the nozzle
as force (F) which is higher than any (-F) force being
applied at the end of the pipe 500 ft away the force that
causes the pipe to move is greater than any force that
could slow or stop the pipe.

these forces are not applied at seperate times they are applied at the same time.

the greater force overcomes the lesser force.





Edited by paul (03/06/11 05:17 PM)
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3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#37721 - 03/07/11 10:12 AM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: paul
applied at the end of the pipe 500 ft away the force that
causes the pipe to move is greater than any force that
could slow or stop the pipe.


It comes back to the old issue of the time the force is applied for. Now also the area it's applied over. A tiny pressure over a larger area for a long time can cause a lot of acceleration/decelleration.

Also, there would be some longitudinal force applied by the air interacting with the sides of the pipe. If you make the pipe longer to reduce the force on the end cap, you're achieving that by increasing the force on the walls.

Imagine it's millions of ball bearings instead of air. Then what'll happen to them?

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#37725 - 03/07/11 03:05 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
thats what I meant when I said the greater force overcomes the lesser force.

the force generated by the air moving through the nozzle is all directed in one direction.

the force applied to the sides would not cause the pipe to move at all because all sides would feel the same force.

the tiny force that is capable of reaching the end will not slow the pipe to any extent.

so the pipe accelerates , and just keeps going.

Quote:
Imagine it's millions of ball bearings instead of air. Then what'll happen to them?


if a ball bearing is ejected through the nozzle it would go all the way to the end and it would impact the end with the same force that was used to propel it.

but ball bearings do not compress and if we were not using compressed air or gasses or something to propel the ball bearings the ball bearings would just sit in the tank and never leave.





Edited by paul (03/07/11 03:11 PM)
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3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#37726 - 03/07/11 03:22 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: paul]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
heres another take on the reactionless propulsion pipe idea.

a steam powered space ship engine...

you could actually boil water in a space ship using solar collectors then direct the steam through a nozzle.

and if you have a nuclear reactor on board that can allow for the production of steam you can travel further from he sun.

but it all boils down to , you dont need to throw something out of a space ship to make the spaceship move , you can throw something inside the ship.


like I said when this all started.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#37756 - 03/09/11 03:56 AM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: paul
the force applied to the sides would not cause the pipe to move at all because all sides would feel the same force.


I didn't mean normal force against the wall, but longitudinal force in the direction of the air's initial motion. ie. parallel to the pipe walls. For a long pipe most of the air's momentum will be transferred to the pipe walls instead of the end cap. But in both cases it's in the same direction.

If you could somehow eliminate the drag on the pipe walls, then even for a long pipe the entire longitudinal momentum of the air when it was released from the tank will be transferred to the cap at the other end of the pipe.

Either way, no motion further than the length of the pipe.

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#37757 - 03/09/11 04:03 AM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: paul
heres another take on the reactionless propulsion pipe idea.

Finding ways to use it really isn't an issue. Anyone can easily think of such ideas. But we can also easily think of ways to use magic carpets. Doesn't really do any good.

Quote:

like I said when this all started.

You said many times, but never once bothered to actually demonstrate, either with a correct model based on accepted physics, or a working prototype.

Same as the millions of others who had this same idea. Not one of them could show that it worked either. It's an old and widely known concept, but one which has never ever been built or shown theoretically to work.

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#37759 - 03/09/11 05:04 AM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
Quote:
Either way, no motion further than the length of the pipe.


this is where your thinking is flawed , you somehow think the pipe will stop when it has traveled its lenght.

that doesnt really make much sence.

and you base that on the air that strikes the pipe after leaving the nozzle.

Quote:
For a long pipe most of the air's momentum will be transferred to the pipe walls


this also makes no sence , the air will expand into the entire inside area of the pipe so most of the air will
not "magically" as you like to say , expand out to the
the pipe walls.

I seriously doubt that the air that does rub against the walls of the pipe would cause much resistance to movement.

and the air that actually touches the walls is probably only around .005 percent of the volume of air that leaves the air tank.

so far you havent offered any meaningful opposition.

Quote:
further than the length of the pipe.


and one more thing , if the air is released very slowly
the pipe could actually travel several times its lenght before the air tank empties or equalizes.

have you ever considered that?




Edited by paul (03/09/11 05:13 AM)
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