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#35122 - 06/23/10 02:51 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: paul

and it will present a force that is exactly its
mass * its velocity.

[...]

force = mass x (velocity / time)


Please explain the difference between these two statements.

Top
.
#35123 - 06/23/10 03:01 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
thank you kallog

now finaly we can connect the dots.

there is no force applied to the pipe because the mass changes direction.

the only forces that apply are the (+) and (-) forces
that the mass applies to the pipe while the mass passes
through the turnarounds.

and the (+)force that is applied to the pipe while the mass
is being accelerated.

these forces are all the same magnatude , therefore
there are 2(+) and 1(-)

the positive forces win , the negative forces loose.

since the total force that the mass can present to the first turnaround is the force that is the product of its mass * its velocity.
and
since the total force that the mass can present to the second turnaround is the force that is the product of its mass * its velocity.

the two forces cancel each other out

the only remaining force is the force that accelerated the mass.

and that force presses against the pipe causing the pipe
to accelerate.

therefore the pipe gains acceleration each time the mass is accelerated and the pipe continues to move in a direction.

with only 1 mass it will accelerate and then jerk back and forth and then be accelerated again then jerk back and forth again etc...etc...etc.

but the jerking back and forth will not stop the pipe from constantly gaining distance away from its initial starting point.

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#35124 - 06/23/10 03:28 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
That's not connecting the dots, that's just repeating the same things you've been saying over and over again.

Originally Posted By: paul

the two forces cancel each other out


I agree the forces are of equal magnitude and opposite direction. But they're applied at different times. The sequence of turnaround forces to the pipe might look like this. I've ignored the accelerator for now -

+1 1st turn
-1 2nd turn
+2 1st turn
-2 2nd turn
+3 1st turn
-3 2nd turn
...

Since this is a continuous process, there's no reason we have to group 1st and 2nd turns together. We could group each 2nd turn and its following 1st turn together:

-1 2nd turn
+2 1st turn

-2 2nd turn
+3 1st turn

-3 2nd turn
+4 1st turn

Just by putting spaces between the lines, suddenly they no longer cancel each other out!


How about we include the accelerator:

-1 accelerator.
+1 1st turn.
-1 2nd turn.
-1 accelerator.
+2 1st turn.
-2 2nd turn.
-1 accelerator.
+3 1st turn.
-3 2nd turn.

Looks like unbalanced force because each group of three adds up to -1. But write them out in blocks of the same sequence, just grouped into blocks:

-1 2nd turn.
-1 accelerator.
+2 1st turn.

-2 2nd turn.
-1 accelerator.
+3 1st turn.


Clearly each set of 2nd turn, acceleration, 1st turn produces zero total force. They all cancel out!!!

All this is very rough, but it clearly shows that just having the same force at both ends doesn't mean you can ignore them.

Fundamental reason: They don't occur at the same time as each other. Even if you add more masses they can't consistently occur at the same time, try drawing an animation if you don't believe me.

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#35125 - 06/23/10 03:36 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
I've actually connected the dots. It's all crystal clear now. (even if McCrystal isn't clear wink

You treat velocity and speed as the same thing. I assumed you knew the difference. I completely understand that my words will be contradictory and ridiculous if you go through all my posts and arbitrarily interchange those two terms.

I'm a bit embarrassed to have not noticed this for so long. But also you should have wondered why I kept changing words for the same thing. Surely not just to make my writing look pretty?

A similar problem exists with momentum. Changing direction means changing momentum.

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#35126 - 06/23/10 03:40 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
thank you kallog

now finaly we can connect the dots.

there is no force applied to the pipe because the mass changes direction.

the only forces that apply are the (+) and (-) forces
that the mass applies to the pipe while the mass passes
through the turnarounds.

and the (+)force that is applied to the pipe while the mass
is being accelerated.

these forces are all the same magnatude , therefore
there are 2(+) and 1(-)

the positive forces win , the negative forces loose.

since the total force that the mass can present to the first turnaround is the force that is the product of its mass * its velocity.
and
since the total force that the mass can present to the second turnaround is the force that is the product of its mass * its velocity.

the two forces cancel each other out

the only remaining force is the force that accelerated the mass.

and that force presses against the pipe causing the pipe
to accelerate.

therefore the pipe gains acceleration each time the mass is accelerated and the pipe continues to move in a direction.

with only 1 mass it will accelerate and then jerk back and forth and then be accelerated again then jerk back and forth again etc...etc...etc.

but the jerking back and forth will not stop the pipe from constantly gaining distance away from its initial starting point.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#35128 - 06/24/10 01:39 AM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
Looks like unbalanced force because each group of three adds up to -1. But write them out in blocks of the same sequence, just grouped into blocks:

-1 2nd turn.
-1 accelerator.
+2 1st turn.

-2 2nd turn.
-1 accelerator.
+3 1st turn.


Clearly each set of 2nd turn, acceleration, 1st turn produces zero total force. They all cancel out!!!


you are talking about change in momentum which is nothing but the direction the mass is traveling.

I am talking about the forces applied to the pipe.

the process begins with the accelerator.
then the first turn
then the second turn

lets examine the increase in total acceleration of the
pipe as the forces are applied to the pipe , instead of
using the change in momentum of the mass as you do.

to determine if the pipe will move.

+1 accelerator.
-1 1st turn.
+1 2nd turn.

result = +1

+2 accelerator.
-2 1st turn.
+2 2nd turn.

result = +2

total acceleration increase = +3

Im not sure what you hope to accomplish with your constant
usage of CHANGE IN DIRECTION OF THE MASS but you certainly cannot apply
CHANGE IN DIRECTION OF THE MASS as a force that moves the pipe.

Why dont you want to use
the actual forces that apply to the pipe
rather than use the change in momentum of the mass.

Quote:
Most of what I just said will appear self-contradictory if you consider 'velocity' and 'speed' to be the same thing.


velocity = 5 meters per second = 5 m/s
velocity = 5 miles per hour = 5 miles/hour

speed = 5 meters per second = 5m/s
speed = 5 miles per hour = 5 miles / hour

they are both the distance traveled by the object and the time the object traveled.











_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#35129 - 06/24/10 01:39 AM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
thank you kallog

now finaly we can connect the dots.

there is no force applied to the pipe because the mass changes direction.

the only forces that apply are the (+) and (-) forces
that the mass applies to the pipe while the mass passes
through the turnarounds.

and the (+)force that is applied to the pipe while the mass
is being accelerated.

these forces are all the same magnatude , therefore
there are 2(+) and 1(-)

the positive forces win , the negative forces loose.

since the total force that the mass can present to the first turnaround is the force that is the product of its
mass * its velocity.
and
since the total force that the mass can present to the second turnaround is the force that is the product of its
mass * its velocity.

the two forces cancel each other out

the only remaining force is the force that accelerated the mass.

and that force presses against the pipe causing the pipe
to accelerate.

therefore the pipe gains acceleration each time the mass is accelerated and the pipe continues to move in a direction.

with only 1 mass it will accelerate and then jerk back and forth and then be accelerated again then jerk back and forth again etc...etc...etc.

but the jerking back and forth will not stop the pipe from constantly gaining distance away from its initial starting point.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#35130 - 06/24/10 06:45 AM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: paul

you are talking about change in momentum which is nothing but the direction the mass is traveling.

I am talking about the forces applied to the pipe.

I'm also talking about the forces applied to the pipe. That's what I said. Please read more carefully.


The accelerator provides twice as much force the 2nd time round? OK that's fine. But it means the turnarounds also provide even more force:

+2 accelerator.
-3 1st turn.
+3 2nd turn.



Move the spaces in the list:


+1 accelerator.
-1 1st turn.

+1 2nd turn.
+2 accelerator.
-3 1st turn.

+3 2nd turn.
+3 accelerator.
-6 1st turn.

+6 2nd turn.
+4 accelerator.
-10 1st turn.


See how each group of 3 forces adds to zero? I've continued your pattern of the accelator's force increasing by 1 each cycle. But you can do that differently if you want, and they still add to zero.









Quote:

velocity = 5 meters per second = 5 m/s
velocity = 5 miles per hour = 5 miles/hour

speed = 5 meters per second = 5m/s
speed = 5 miles per hour = 5 miles / hour

they are both the distance traveled by the object and the time the object traveled.


No they're not the same. I'm really sure this is a big part of your consistent failure to understand anything I write. Until you find out the difference we may as well give up. I'm not going to the trouble of rewriting all my calculations using only speed and no velocity.

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#35131 - 06/24/10 12:03 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
The accelerator provides twice as much force the 2nd time round? OK that's fine. But it means the turnarounds also provide even more force:


No kallog the the total acceleration of THE PIPE increses
each cycle.

the same force is used ie...

2nd cycle the pipe total acceleration increases from

a lower total acceleration to a higher total acceleration.

because the mass accelerates to a higher velocity each cycle.

I dont think I have used the term "speed" so far other than
while trying to convince you that the direction of the mass will not accelerate the pipe , what will accelerate the pipe is the force that is placed on the pipe.

you have never added a direction to velocity , normaly
when you see velocity written down you do not also see
a direction.

ie
50 m/s/north
50 miles per hour/south

so since you insist on using direction from now on
we will attach a direction as we discuss movement.

we will use north and south and left and right
when talking about the moving mass and the moving pipe.

and we will say that the mass is
initialy accelerated north.
then turns left
then travels south without acceleration
then turns right
then is accelerated north again.

this way we can both use a more correct description of velocity.

ie...

accelerated from 0 m/s to 50 m/s/North
50 m/s/Left
50 m/s/South
50 m/s/Right

accelerated from 50 m/s/North to 100 m/s/North
100 m/s/Left
100 m/s/South
100 m/s/Right

etc...etc...etc...etc...



so were both guilty of using velocity the normal way
which is the wrong way , its just that you seem to want to make an issue of it , so in this discussion I will adapt to
the new terms.

if you have used velocity the right way in this or any other discussion in this forum , please post a link so that we can see.

Quote:
I'm really sure this is a big part of your consistent failure to understand anything I write.


if so then it is also a big part of your consistent failure to understand anything I write.

Quote:
The accelerator provides twice as much force the 2nd time round? OK that's fine. But it means the turnarounds also provide even more force:

+2 accelerator.
-3 1st turn.
+3 2nd turn.



according to the above (calculation?) of yours the turnaround accelerates the mass even faster because
you show -3 in turn #1 plus +3 in turn #2
that are the result of the +2 force from acceleration.

even so adding up +2 plus -3 plus +3 shows pipe acceleration. because you end up with +2

but I am curious how you determned that the turnaround adds force , please explain this fantasy of yours , how does the turnaround provide even more force?

and while your explaining please use math.
instead of just picking numbers and forces out of thin air.

but just think kallog if your right then you have discovered another way to produce free energy !! you could capture that extra fantasy force and use it , you still have your original force.


I think you have a extreme lack of the understanding of force and motion




_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#35132 - 06/24/10 12:53 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: paul

you have never added a direction to velocity , normaly
when you see velocity written down you do not also see
a direction.


All the time I've been treating it as a 1-dimensional system, so there are only 2 directions. I used +/- to indicate these - a 1-dimensional vector is just a number which can be either positive or negative so that's how I wrote them. If you consider it as 3D then it's the same except all the vector quantities are just the x-components of the 3D vectors. You can ignore the y and z components because any forces in those directions do nothing to the motion of the pipe along its length. The geometry can be set up so they cancel out anyway.


Quote:

accelerated from 0 m/s to 50 m/s/North
50 m/s/Left
50 m/s/South
50 m/s/Right


That hides important accelerations:
accelerated from 0 m/s to 50 m/s/North
accelerated from 50m/s/North to 50 m/s/Left
accelerated from 50m/s/Left to 50 m/s/South
accelerated from 50m/s/South to 50 m/s/Right

But it's sufficient to consider only 1 component of velocity for our purposes. That makes it much much simpler.

If you don't like the 1D simplification, then just replace the u-bends with springs. I've been treating them the same as springs all the way through.

Quote:

please explain this fantasy of yours , how does the turnaround provide even more force?


The force at the turnaround is determined by the mass's speed. Each time round it gets faster so applies more force. Even if you switch off the accelerator the mass will keep going round applying high forces at each turnaround, despite the accelerator's force being zero.

I've written out all the equations ages ago. You can go back and find them if you want.


Edited by kallog (06/24/10 01:02 PM)

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#35133 - 06/24/10 01:01 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
If you don't like the 1D simplification, then just replace the u-bends with springs. I've been treating them the same as springs all the way through.


if your using springs then how are you getting more acceleration out of a spring.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#35134 - 06/24/10 01:09 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Originally Posted By: paul
Quote:
If you don't like the 1D simplification, then just replace the u-bends with springs. I've been treating them the same as springs all the way through.


if your using springs then how are you getting more acceleration out of a spring.


More than what? Throw a mass against a spring and it applies a force. The average force depends on the mass, speed and spring constant.

That force is exactly the same as the average of the component of force in the longitudinal direction for a mass going through a U-bend that takes the same amount of time to turn around.






Edited by kallog (06/24/10 01:10 PM)

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#35135 - 06/24/10 01:44 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:

+1 accelerator.
-1 1st turn.

+1 2nd turn.
+2 accelerator.
-3 1st turn.

+3 2nd turn.
+3 accelerator.
-6 1st turn.

+6 2nd turn.
+4 accelerator.
-10 1st turn.

See how each group of 3 forces adds to zero? I've continued your pattern of the accelator's force increasing by 1 each cycle. But you can do that differently if you want, and they still add to zero.


you just added up the first two positive numbers then
put that same number in as the negative number , of course
they will always add up to zero if we use your type of
physics , LOL...

lets do this a more correct way.
+1 accelerator.
-1 1st turn.
+1 2nd turn.
------------------------------- = +1
+2 accelerator.
-2 1st turn.
+2 2nd turn.
------------------------------- = +2
+3 accelerator.
-3 1st turn.
+3 2nd turn.
------------------------------- = +3

Total positive force = +12
Total negative force = -6
_____________________________
Total resultant foce = +6

each cycle adds acceleration.

See how the 3 groups of forces adds to +6? I've continued your pattern of the accelator's force increasing by 1 each cycle. but I didnt include any additional fantasy forces as you have , But you can do that differently if you want, and they still add to +6 , unless you use your fantasy forces that is.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#35136 - 06/24/10 02:47 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Doesn't matter. The same set of forces can either "balance" or "not balance", depending on how you group them.


Here's the same numbers non-balanced:

+1 accelerator.
-1 1st turn.
+1 2nd turn.

+2 accelerator.
-3 1st turn.
+3 2nd turn.

+3 accelerator.
-6 1st turn.
+6 2nd turn.

All this just demonstrates the meaninglessness of trying to balance forces that aren't being applied simultaneously.

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#35137 - 06/24/10 02:51 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: kallog]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
I've done more than my fair share of the leg-work.

How about you just write out your calculations that show the motion of the pipe?

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#35139 - 06/24/10 02:58 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Doesnt matter , the positive forces will still add up
to more than the negative forces , so the pipe will move.
no matter how you word it , or change the numbers around.

but if you use fantasy numbers you will always be able to
end up with what ever number you want.

and that is what you do.

+1 accelerator.
-1 1st turn.
+1 2nd turn.
--------------------- = +1
+2 accelerator.
-3 1st turn.
+3 2nd turn.
--------------------- = +2
+3 accelerator.
-6 1st turn.
+6 2nd turn.
--------------------- = +3

Total resultant force = +6

the pipe moves because of the positive force.

as far as I am concerned I have won this discussion because
of my use of non - fictional forces and numbers , you have done nothing but try to use fictional forces and went as far as adding up those fictional forces to arrive at fictional numbers.

I dont think that anything you could post would prove me wrong , so given that you cheat.

I win the discussion and you loose.

reactionless propulsion is a fact.



_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#35140 - 06/24/10 03:08 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: paul]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Here's your exact same numbers:

+1 accelerator.
-1 1st turn.
--------------------- = 0
+1 2nd turn.
+2 accelerator.
-3 1st turn.
--------------------- = 0
+3 2nd turn.
+3 accelerator.
-6 1st turn.
--------------------- = 0
+6 2nd turn.
?
?

Total resultant force = 0 + unknown last section which is probably zero too.

the pipe does't move because of the zero force.

as far as I am concerned I have won this discussion because
of my use of non - fictional forces and numbers , you have done nothing but try to use fictional forces and went as far as adding up those fictional forces to arrive at fictional numbers.

I dont think that anything you could post would prove me wrong , so given that you cheat.

I win the discussion and you loose.

reactionless propulsion is a fallacy.

Top
#35141 - 06/24/10 03:11 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: kallog]
kallog Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 1100
Well now that you're right, and you've been proven right, what will you do? Here's some suggestions:

Build it
Patent it
Get a Nobel prize
Become richer than God



Or another possibility:

Do nothing
Feel frustrated
Get nothing
Die poor and forgotten by the world



It's up to you!

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#35143 - 06/24/10 03:17 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
As I said before I highly doubt that I am the first to
think of this concept for propulsion.

and just as soon as I inform ( the government ) by
applying for a pattent from ( the government ) then
I would be slapped in the face with a gag order or worse.

you apply for a pattent for it , you get rich , LOL.

if you live through that then I will apply for a pattent for the free energy machine to power the accelerator.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#35144 - 06/24/10 03:30 PM Re: Orion, Mission to Alpha Centauri [Re: kallog]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
Here's your exact same numbers:

+1 accelerator.
-1 1st turn.
--------------------- = 0
+1 2nd turn.
+2 accelerator.
-3 1st turn.
--------------------- = 0
+3 2nd turn.
+3 accelerator.
-6 1st turn.
--------------------- = 0
+6 2nd turn.
?
?

Total resultant force = 0 + unknown last section which is probably zero too.



your right you just added wrong.

you forgot to add the +6 2nd turn at the end.

3 cycles = 3 forces *3 cycles = 9 forces

you included 9 forces but only added 8

so the Total resultant force = +6

go ahead and add more sections as long as you dont leave out parts the same will occur.

you try to cheat , but always get caught.LOL

so the rest of your post is meaningless other than to
prove that you have a talent for cheating.

Quote:
Total resultant force = 0 + unknown last section which is probably zero too.

the pipe does't move because of the zero force.

as far as I am concerned I have won this discussion because
of my use of non - fictional forces and numbers , you have done nothing but try to use fictional forces and went as far as adding up those fictional forces to arrive at fictional numbers.

I dont think that anything you could post would prove me wrong , so given that you cheat.

I win the discussion and you loose.

reactionless propulsion is a fallacy.



Physics isnt about cheating kallog.

but dont feel bad about not having a talent for physics
because like you , most dont , they just had a good talent for cheating while taking physics courses in college.

your physics skills are a fallacy.

but reactionless propulsion is a fact.






_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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