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#36709 - 11/29/10 07:30 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: ImagingGeek]
redewenur Offline
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QED doesn't really do the job of eliminating 'God' as the prime mover though, as it may be argued that God (or the Word) made it possible for something to come from no-thing, and without Whom/Which QED (and all associated maths) simply would not be. It remains a matter of faith; and science, quantum or otherwise, will never have last word on the question why there is something rather than nothing.
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#36719 - 11/30/10 07:56 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: ImagingGeek]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: ImagingGeek
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
How did we get the terms The terms "quantum system" and "quantum states" into a N Q S thread?

Because quantum mechanics provides an explanation of how our universe could form, literally, from nothing. I.E. QED can explain the origin and cause of our universe, without the need for a god....
Without the need for a god? Of course! GOD, in the minds of modern thinkers, especially the process theologians and philosophers, is not 'a' god--an objective and idol-like being apart from what is, GOD is total Being, is total Reality. Do a search on panentheism. It is similar to unitheism and the ideas of Einstein, Baruch Spinoza, Alfred North Whitehead, Charles Hartshorne and others.

Bill S. is right to infer, "that quantum theory is bringing science/philosophy/theology closer together."
He could have added: in their modern form.

Bryan you say that, "science is explaining things previously explained via philosophy and religion."

But more to the point, ancient philosophers and theologians--of course there were a few who were ahead of their time--did not explain anything. Most ancient clergy, astrologers, astronomers, doctors, and the like offered fiats, doctrines and/or dogmas--to be accepted and believed without evidence, without challenge, questions or doubt.

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#36720 - 11/30/10 08:01 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: redewenur]
ImagingGeek Offline
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Originally Posted By: redewenur
QED doesn't really do the job of eliminating 'God' as the prime mover though, as it may be argued that God (or the Word) made it possible for something to come from no-thing, and without Whom/Which QED (and all associated maths) simply would not be. It remains a matter of faith; and science, quantum or otherwise, will never have last word on the question why there is something rather than nothing.


No, it is not a matter of faith. To the contrary, QED plus recent measurements of the quantum background radiation provide a mechanism for the formation of our universe which is both consistent with what we observe, as well as consistent with the various physical laws by which our universe runs.

The religious counter-claim simply adds on an unnessisary (and statistically unlikely) addition to this natural process.

The exact details are far too long to write out here. I'd recommend the video "A Universe From Nothing" by Lawrence Krauss (youtube has it) as a good layman's primer.

Bryan
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#36721 - 11/30/10 08:07 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Bill S. Offline
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Originally Posted By: redewenur
it may be argued that God (or the Word) made it possible for something to come from no-thing, and without Whom/Which QED (and all associated maths) simply would not be.


The more this discussion progresses (if progressing is what it is doing) the more it seems that the only way to avoid infinite regression is to invoke an infinite something. Of course, finding a logical path to an infinite something is very different from establishing, logically, what that something might be. There will always be room for science, philosophy and faith. I guess we may never know which will have the last word, but discussing it can keep the brain cells from stagnating with advancing years.
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#36724 - 11/30/10 09:53 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Bill S.]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
...
The more this discussion progresses (if progressing is what it is doing) the more it seems that the only way to avoid infinite regression is to invoke an infinite something.
Of course! Are there not any number of scientists who already agree that there is an infinite something that is also eternal? If there IS, and you are an agnostic or an atheist, what would you feel comfortable calling it? Would you feel OK calling it Reality, or Existence? I would. Any other suggestion?

Me? I also feel comfortable calling it, GOD. Do I not have the right to use this acronym, if I want to?

Now that I live in Octogenaria (Since last January 14), I am glad to here you say,
Quote:
There will always be room for science, philosophy and faith. I guess we may never know which will have the last word, but discussing it can keep the brain cells from stagnating with advancing years.
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#36736 - 12/02/10 06:26 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Bill, BTW, I am not here to have the last word. I simply want to add to the dialogue.
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#36737 - 12/02/10 08:02 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Bill S. Offline
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Quote:
Bill, BTW, I am not here to have the last word. I simply want to add to the dialogue.


I was not suggesting that you were looking for the last word, At 80, I would imaging you are too old to expect that. smile
I'm 10 years behind you, and I gave up the idea of having the last word decades ago. Having said that, I do seem to have brought a few threads to a close by mentioning infinity. :P
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#36761 - 12/05/10 11:00 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Bill S.]
Ellis Offline
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As a laid-back atheist from way back, and non- scientific person too, it seems that there there could possibly be a 'something' at the end of infinity, if infinity has an end, which it is supposed not to do! What you call it is up to you I think. I just won't call it god. Or maybe in the end all existence morphs into the start of the eternal reality of the arsenic eaters of the extended universe.

Who knows?

Of course it is the uncertainty that makes pondering possible!

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#36770 - 12/06/10 09:47 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
Bill S. Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ellis
there could possibly be a 'something' at the end of infinity, if infinity has an end,


Surely, if it has an end, it is not infinite; etymologically, that seems to be the whole point of it. Practically, though, it must be only half the point, because infinity cannot have a beginning either.

Seems a little odd that God and infinity are so often juxtaposed, but the omega point never gets a mention.
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#36778 - 12/07/10 04:10 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Bill S.]
Ellis Offline
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Don't you like my idea that our infinity's reality cold continue until it splices with an other's infinity? Sounds silly, but so does god a bit really. And I did acknowledge that infinity is supposed to be, in fact, infinite! So perhaps it's a big loop-like thing that continues forever.

I have no idea if this is scientifically feasible in any way, but it certainly is worth a philosophical discussion!

What do you understand to be the omega point? It would seem to suggest that there must be an alpha point too.

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#36784 - 12/07/10 06:31 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
Bill S. Offline
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I'm not happy with any definition of infinity that allows for the existence of more than one infinity (outside of maths, that is).

I think science has to overlap somewhere, with non-mathematical infinity, if only to try to avoid "infinite regression" in seeking origins.

Iím not aware that Teilhard de Chardin even thought of an alpha point. smile
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#36785 - 12/07/10 11:23 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Bill S.]
Ellis Offline
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In view of the fact that de Chardin was, I have always supposed, deeply religious, I would have expected that he would have acknowledged alpha and omega tendencies within the 'god' in whom he believed. It would be difficult to imagine an omnipotent god figure (or state of being or....whatever) that did not also assume that "god' to be present in the beginning and at the end. Indeed to be the alpha and omega.

All of which gets us no further along the road travelled by anyone not shackled by religious belief and able to indulge in fancy. For example is our understanding of infinity a characteristic of our flawed experience of time? After all we can only experience one sort of time-- the split-second that is our recognition of the present. Under that sort of thinking infinity becomes less of a road to be followed and more part of everyday existence. Perhaps!!


Edited by Ellis (12/07/10 11:26 PM)
Edit Reason: typo- still can't type!

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#36791 - 12/08/10 05:30 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ellis
As a laid-back atheist ... I just won't call it god ... Of course it is the uncertainty that makes pondering possible!
Glad to know that you don't mind if I call it omni-Good, Omni-presence and omni-Delightful. In short form, GOD. smile

But seriously, Ellis, no truly sophisticated theologian, today, that I have ever read speaks of 'a' god as 'a' supernatural being with human-like dimensions and of the male gender--the way Richard Dawkins on page 31 of his book, The GOD Delusion, does.

I think it was Voltaire who said, "If God does not exist, we will need to invent one." IMO, this is what modern physicists seem to be doing. It is helping us to realize that there is omnipresence of being, omnipotence and omniscience--GOD in macro form.

Now here is where we come in: It is up to us--as G0D in micro form--to provide the agape-love; to use this presence, power and knowledge for good. Because if we don't, it will surely be used for evil. G can also stand for gruesome, O for odious, and D for diabolic. The choice is ours.


Edited by Revlgking (12/08/10 05:45 AM)
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#36803 - 12/09/10 05:52 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Rev-- I too am not personalising god---- indeed I have referred to god as being 'whatever', as in whatever you choose to imagine god is. This by the way is not the way the average believer is encouraged to imagine their god to be. The use of personification is very alive and well, outside "sophisticated theologian" circles.

The Voltaire thing I just disagree with! And what a huge leap to saddle physicists with the task of inventing god. I know some guy you mentioned last year suggests this as his major 'raison d'etre' but it seems presumptous at the very least to suppose that this should be the main aim of all scientists, or to claim their discoveries as the continuing search for god.

You say the choice is ours. I agree. So I do not say that I am right, there is no god, and you are wrong. I have made up my mind, or more realistically, I have not felt the need to use anything supernatural to enable me to recognise goodness and truth when I experience it!

That said, is it possible to contemplate infinity without the presence of a god, or god-like omni-presence? I am absolutely sure that it is. The fun is in suggesting what it could be!

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#36804 - 12/09/10 06:04 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
MEDICINE, MEDICARE AND GOD
==========================
Other than getting a check up now and then, in my 80 years of life I have done very little doctoring. If at the end of my days I die suddenly, doctors needing to make a living--and I do not begrudge good doctors a good living--will not have made much money on me.

However, keep in mind that Canada does have a relatively good Medicare System. But let's not fool ourselves: It is not free. It is paid for by all who pay taxes. And I am happy to be a part of and support the system and to help all who are part of the Canadian community.'KANATA' is Algonquin for "My community".

THE CHURCHES AND MEDICARE IN CANADA
===================================
NB: THE PREMIER OF SASKATCHEWAN, THE FIRST MEDICARE PROVINCE, WAS A MINISTER--THE REV. TOMMY DOUGLAS.(Do a search on his name) Most clergy of most churches of most denominations supported his idea. At the time, many, not all, doctors were opposed and went on strike. Not now, though.
===================================
BTW, as a young minister, at 35, I was part of the clergy movement--I remember wearing a placard (front and back) as we walked near provincial government buildings--across Canada. We pushed our politicians to vote and bring about the Canadian Medicare system. The money that the system saves on people who keep themselves healthy most of their lives helps to pay for others who, for whatever reasons--some good, some not so good--are not among the healthy and fortunate ones.

That being said, today I had the second of two appointments as part of an annual check up. The result? For my age I am in good health, thank GOD.

DOCTORS AND GOD
===============
Our family doctor, Dr. David C is young (in his early thirties), friendly and very easy to talk with, does not rush one, is willing to answer questions about what is going on in the field of health and is also willing to chat about beliefs, including beliefs about "god". He knows that I am a minister and about my basic beliefs.

Yes, we chatted about "god" and religion. In response to my question--Do you believe in "god"?-- which I asked in my first appointment a week ago, he calmly responded: "Rev, while I respect you for your beliefs, I have to be honest and say, no ..."

I thanked him for his candour. Then I said, with your permission and if you don't mind, next week, I will ask you three short yes-or-no questions on the same theme. Again, feel free to give me your candid responses. We both calmly agreed to leave it at that.

In my next post, I will tell you what the three questions were and what his response to each of them was. Meanwhile, feel free to try and guess what the questions and responses were.



Edited by Revlgking (12/09/10 06:14 AM)
Edit Reason: good idea
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#36807 - 12/09/10 03:53 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Bill S. Offline
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Quote:
In my next post, I will tell you what the three questions were and what his response to each of them was. Meanwhile, feel free to try and guess what the questions and responses were.


Is this one of the reasons why threads that involve God tend to be long ones? smile
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#36808 - 12/09/10 11:29 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Bill S.]
Ellis Offline
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Can't remember the exact words-- but in the words of the old hymn--

God is working his purpose out
As year succeeds to year
God is working his purpose out
And the time is coming near---

After a lot of verses it ends with the prophetic words that--

God is working his purpose out
Til the waters cover the sea....

All that 'working out' takes time and it's bound to take us even longer than god. And god HAS got eternity I guess.

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#36809 - 12/10/10 04:44 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Bill S.]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
... Is this one of the reasons why threads that involve God tend to be long ones? smile
Bill, thanks for the smile. But, the important question is: Do my posts have some value?

GOD is a big topic. However, I will try to post a brief summary of my last conversation with my family doctor:

David, I know that to qualify as a doctor it was necessary for you, with the help of teachers--those who have been there and done that--to study the sciences involved in medicine, but I hope to are also interested in the art of medicine.

He agreed. Then I asked him three questions:

1. I asked him what he thought of the work of Hawking and others, who say that our physical universe, along with other possible universes, is following the laws of quantum mechanics and relativity. Our universe appears to exist within what we can only call omni-present being. In other words, our physical universe came from nothing '0' and is expanding into everything 'O'--from zero to infinity--Omni-presence. To me, this information is awesome. Is it not awesome to you, too, and of interest you?

He agreed: Of course it is.

Then I said: Then, there is your O Then I referred to:

'The Grand Design,' by Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow. Hawking and Mlodinow say that "the real meat of their book" is, "the way theories about quantum mechanics and relativity came together to shape our understanding of how our universe (and possibly others) formed out of nothing."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/03/AR2010090302118.html

2. Then I asked: Is it not a good even a great thing that we are finally beginning to bring some order out of the chaos and ignorance?

Again, he agreed.

I said: There is your G and your O.. Now for the D

3. Finally, I asked: Is it not a good, grand, omnipotent, omni-present and delightful design?

He agreed: This makes sense, not having to think of god as he or she.

So you see, David: You do believe in GOD.

He smiled smile and said: "If that is what you mean by god, it sounds OK!"



Edited by Revlgking (12/10/10 04:54 AM)
Edit Reason: good idea
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#36810 - 12/10/10 04:06 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Bill S. Offline
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Quote:
-from zero to infinity-


Two questions come to mind here:
1. Does zero = infinity?
2. In progressing from zero to infinity, is there a finite, intermediate state?
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#36813 - 12/10/10 11:29 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Bill S.]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Quote:
-from zero to infinity-


Two questions come to mind here:
1. Does zero = infinity?
2. In progressing from zero to infinity, is there a finite, intermediate state?
Bill, interesting questions, thanks. Here is a suggestion:
Anyone in NQS, or among the readers, who are skilled in higher maths? Let us ask for help.

How about you? What are your skills?

My higher math skills go back to high school science-- physics, chemistry and the like in 1946, and stopped there. I still remember I=E/R.

Interestingly, it is about Ohm's law, which is: The intensity of the current (in amperes) equals the electro magnetic force (in volts) divided by the resistance (in ohms).

Georg Simon Ohm, a German physicist introduced the idea in 1826. Because of resistance to his new idea, it took seven years (1833) before it was accepted.
===========================================

I wonder: Could it be that there is a parable here about what we do with new ideas?
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