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#18030 - 02/05/07 11:48 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: DA Morgan]
DA Morgan Offline
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Revlgking wrote:
"What about the destruction caused by diabolic and evil scientists? Does this make all science evil?"

Name one?

Let me preempt this idiocy by naming Dr. Teller whose is probably in line to dribble from your lips. How many people did Dr. Teller kill with his own hands or by means of decree to other who carried out the bloody work?

Now lets ask the same question of those who claim moral and ethical superiority because they wear a collar and claim to worship the "Prince of Peace." And let me remind you of the Crusades, the Hundred Years War, and a few thousand other memorable events recorded in history books.

Is condemnation without real information ever acceptable no. But condemnation must be for real acts of commission ... not the hypocritical rants of a troll who has hypnotized himself into believing he has anything of substance to say.
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#18044 - 02/06/07 09:15 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: DA Morgan]
terrytnewzealand Offline
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Revlgking wrote:

"What about the destruction caused by diabolic and evil scientists? Does this make all science evil?"

Are you thinking of any specific scientists, or are you thinking of the uses to which their work has been put? I was really just making an obscure joke when I said that by manipulating our definition of religion we would be able to blame everything bad on it. Which reminds me, we still haven't defined God or even what religion is.

Blacknad quotes Sam Harris:

"I am one of the few people I know of who has argued in print that torture may be an ethical necessity in our war on terror."

Ah. The war to promote terror. Shows atheists can be as ignorant of what the terror directed at some countries in the western world is all about as are the leaders of those countries, most of whom claim to believe in this God business.

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#18050 - 02/06/07 01:43 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: terrytnewzealand]
Revlgking Offline
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TNZ comments
Quote:
Which reminds me, we still haven't defined God or even what religion is.
When I was very young, and still believed in Santa Claus, perhaps was the only time I believed in a god called God who took care of everything. I soon found out that "He" did not.

BACKGROUND
Because, by the time I was five, there were three deaths in my immediate family, including my mother, I grew up, fast, in third-world conditions--the seventh of eighth children. My father, and oldest brothers, went to work while they were still just children. They fished on the "cruel sea" and digged in the iron ore mines (1895-1966) in a time when labourers were paid .10 cents an hour. The Bell Island mines--there were six--were then the largest in the British Empire.

As a curious teenager, I got very interested in studying high school science and thinking about mining engineering. I became very agnostic. However, at 15/16, inspired by a heroic kind of minister--an outdoorsman who went back to school late in life and became a minister--I became an uncomfortable and reluctant theist. Churches were the social centres of the community of 10,000 people.

At 17, I started theological studies, beginning with a B.A (psychology/philosophy). I took my B.A. with the understanding that I would only continue on and be ordained if I found a rational kind of theology that did not require a blind approach to faith. Another mentor--he became head of the theological department the year I entered http://www.mta.ca His words still ring in my inner-mind: "I do not want you to hang up you brains, with your hat, when you enter my classes". He taught Greek, Hebrew and other studies realted to the Bible and history.

MY CONCEPT OF GOD WAS FREE TO GROW
Because of this, I have never had a fixed-postioned philosophy of of thinking, theologically. I hope I am still growing. IMHO, there is no such thing as THE ONE TRUE RELIGION. Dogmatic religions, even the good ones, tend to be diabolic and divide us.
As I have said before, Devil=equals 'slanderer' the spirit of division.

Beginning in the 1960's I began the development of the kind of theology I now call unitheism, panentheism, I do not even object to non-theism, which is not the same thing as atheism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontheism Buddhism is a non-theistic religion. I did not reject theism--still don't for those who find it satisfying--I simply grew out of it.

SCIENCE AND GOD
Interestingly, Nicola Tesla--the genius who went up against Thomas Edison, and gave us AC electricity--was a fairly devout Orthodox Christian. His father was an Orthodox priest. He advocated a religion based on a combination of the Christian and the Buddhist religions. He was student of yoga.

http://www.frank.germano.com/the_complete_tesla.htm

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/10/1018_041018_science_religion.html

RELIGION?
For me, my religion is simply the art of doing my philosophy and theology, in my home, my church, my community and my world. Am I a Christian, that is, behave like a decent person? Ask my neighbour.

For me, creeds may have real value, but only if they are flexible enough to inspire me to be moral and ethical in my thoughts, words and deeds, the kind which really do make the world a better place. And there is more, much more. Names like Marcus Borg, Karen Armstrong, Elaine Pagels, Bishop John Spong, etc. come to mind.....



Edited by Revlgking (02/06/07 04:11 PM)
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#18054 - 02/06/07 03:12 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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"SCIENCE AND GOD"

Some scientists believe in god, therefore everyone should believe in god.

Some scientists are racists, therefore everyone should be a racist.

I'm familiar with Tesla. Brilliant guy. Very kooky. But a brilliant guy. He was afraid of pearls. Maybe we should ban them.


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#18055 - 02/06/07 05:18 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Revlgking Offline
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TFF, when you write: "Some scientists believe in god, therefore everyone should believe in god." Is this your logic? It is certainly not mine.

I presume that you realize that this is not an argument I would make. I quote intelligent people, who I admire, from all walks of life, and who have the courage to tell us what they believe. It is nice to know that science and faith can coexist in the same person.

PARAPSYCHOLOGY. To what extent is it a science? Duke University took it seriously. BTW, I came across the following:
Quote:
Tesla as a clairvoyant

It is evident that Tesla knew the phenomenon that we call parapsychology. As told above, the method Tesla used to make his discoveries work in the laboratory has no analogues in all the history of science.

There are more that 150,000 documents in the Nikola Tesla museum in Belgrade, but he didn't leave any description of his scientific method, which is comparable only with states experienced by yogis or with things known by saints. Now few people consider Tesla to be a philosopher or a spiritual man. They do think he was a man who inspired physics, technology and science.

Finally, he founded a basis of a new millennium civilization with all his life's work. Though now his influence on the modern tendencies in science is minimal, his role heeds overestimation. Only the future will give a real explanation of Tesla as a phenomenon, because he went far ahead and he stands higher than the methods accepted currently.

A well-known Indian philosopher Vivekananda, one of the members of Ramakrishna mission, who was sent to the West to find out a possibility to join all existing religions, visited Tesla in his New York laboratory in 1906 and immediately sent a letter to his Indian colleague Alasingh. He rapturously described his meeting with Tesla: "This man is different from other western people. He showed his experiments with electricity.

His attitude to electricity looks like an attitude to a living being. He speaks with it and gives orders to it. I speak about the highest degree of spiritual person. It is no doubt that he has a spirituality of the highest level and can call all our gods. In his electrical multicolored lights, I saw all our gods: Vishnu, Shiva? and I felt the presence of Brahma himself".
_________________________
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#18063 - 02/06/07 06:17 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Parapsychology is pseudoscience. Duke made a mistake. Sometimes otherwise smart people do stupid things.

Yes, faith and science can "coexist in the same person." I
It is VERY few people maintain otherwise. However, the scientists who are any good do us the courtesy of distinguishing their scientific opinions from their religious convictions.

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#18073 - 02/06/07 09:40 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
DA Morgan Offline
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Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
To quote our very own Uncle Al:
======================================================
Religion and science are orthogonal - they have nothing
in common and do not overlap in any way. Religion is based
upon faith and is destroyed by empirical proof. Science is
based upon empirical proof and is rendered inoperative by
faith.

Who wins if the two camps are opposed? India has 5000
years of philosophy, 30 crores of gods, and 1 million
flush toilets for 1.1 billion indigenous Indians. (1
crore = 10 million). Boulder, Colorado has more flush
toilets than that. did you ever smell India?

Believe what you want but hire engineers to design
your plumbing. Physical reality doesn't care what you
think. Think of it as evolution in action.
~ Uncle Al

_________________________
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#18095 - 02/07/07 05:04 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: DA Morgan]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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In case it's not obvious, while Tesla was undoubtedly brilliant:

Not every statement or belief of brilliant people is brilliant.

There is no evidence to suggest anything supernatural in Tesla's genius. His intellectual process sounds similar to the claims I've heard of Mozart and Beethoven. Tesla's existence is not evidence of parapsychology. Tesla's abilities are not evidence of parapsychology. That other people saw Tesla and were astounded is not evidence of parapsychology. I'm not aware that Tesla himself even believed in it, but even if he did THAT is no evidence of parapsychology. Those "witnesses" describe him as "unique" only because they don't know much about other brilliant scientists. There are a number of people whose brilliance seems magical to even other scientists - Feynman, Gauss, Ramanujan, Mozart, da Vinci.

Tesla was amazingly brilliant. Most people involved in electrical science - even those like myself who are involved only remotely - know that very well. Tesla was kooky and quirky. That doesn't diminish his many accomplishments, but it is an accurate description. His unique way of doing his work is one reason why it took some time for his contemporaries to realize his brilliance. Maybe we still don't know exactly how brilliant he was. And even our ignorance is not evidence of parapsychology.




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#18122 - 02/12/07 04:12 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Recently, I wrote Mark Thomas, an atheist.

I thanked him for his very interesting site
http://www.godlessgeeks.com/WhyAtheism.htm

He begins his essay by saying that, "Life is a process ? not a design. It requires an explanation ? not an intelligent designer." I told him that I agree. Then I went on to write:

Quote:
WELCOME TO PROTHEISM and to G?D as Love
Like you, I do not believe in gods, or a god called God. But I am not
an atheist. That is, I am not one who is against the concept of 'god'
consciousness, properly understood. Therefore, I feel comfortable
calling myself a protheist. That is, I see all things--even those
which are apparently evil--as parts of a process which can,
eventually, become total goodness, order and design, for which I use
a special word I coined, G?D. I do it for the same reason Orthodox Jews write G-d., to avoid making divine being an object.

ALL THINGS ARE IN THE PROCESS OF BEING
I say this because I have a strong feeling that, backed by a rational
faith and a reasonable hope, all things, including humanity, are in
the process of becoming fully realized.

Furthermore, I also choose to
have this faith and hope. In addition, I choose to have a strong and personal will (love)
that it be so. Because of this, I think I now understand why John
wrote: Ho theos agape--God is love (1 John 4:16).

Agape/love, in my opinion, is not just a feeling, one which depends on
physical, mental and spiritual circumstances, on others, or on our
heredity and/or environment. It is an act of pure will, originating in
the spirit--our consciousness of self.

I CHOOSE TO BE A PROTHEIST
Based on this, at this point, until otherwise convinced, I choose to
think of myself as a protheist--that is, one who aagrees with you and
believes there is an explanation for all of nature. It begins with
believing in, and acting on the premise that G?D, as Love, is that
which is total, infinite, eternal, all-encompassing and universal.

LOVE IS THE GOOD NEWS
You conclude your article by letting us know, "... the bad news ...
and the good news." You say that, "The bad news is that there is no
god to watch over and care for us. The good news is that there is no
hell, and we can all love and care for each other ? if we so choose."

Ah yes! the power to choose and to value the highest good. Obviously
you and John have something in common: You both choose and value the
highest good, love.

Thanks, again, for your stimulating essay.

Yours in the spirit of the highest good--agape/love...



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#18123 - 02/12/07 05:57 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Posts: 1490
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So do you not believe in The Plan and The Designer because if you do not, and it seems to me that that is what you are saying, then you believe in chaos. Although in your usual "having a bet each way" I see you refer to the "process of being realised" as the goal of existence ie love. So existence =divine love (agape). Makes as much sense as anything else, perhaps a bit less than some. I can never understand why people who believe in their god have to bring the issue of its divinity down to mundane terms which we can all understand. Enjoy the mystery, puff the scented smoke, that's part of it. Really chaos provides all the explanation we need however.

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#18131 - 02/12/07 11:34 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Turner
Ellis, Thanks! I find your comments quite thought provoking.
Quote:
So do you not believe in The Plan and The Designer...


Ellis, keep in mind: When I write, G?D, I write it to refer to everything--physical, mental and spiritual.

As I understand most theologies, G?D cannot be god and be less than everything. And everything includes chaos. G?D, also, includes what we think of as evil--pain, suffering and death. Does this surprise you?

PROTHEISM BELIEVES
However, as a protheist, as long as I am free to choose, I choose to have faith, hope and Love--notice that I capitalize it--to experience G?D as operating within, not exterior to, the plan and the design of everything.

As a protheist, I think of G?D not as the planner and designer, out there, but as part of the total process--the planner and designer from within, including you and me. G?D helps us bring order out of evil and the chaos, as we use the gifts of Faith, Hope and Love--the highest good. In the light of this, what does atheism have to offer.

I repeat: WHAT DOES ATHEISM HAVE TO OFFER?
BTW, are there any who are willing to answer this question?
I hear most atheists say: In the long run faith, hope and love are tools used by those who wish to delude themselves.

IMHO, ATHEISM SHOULD ACTUALLY BE CALLED CONTHEISM.

When you write [quote]I can never understand why people who believe in their god have to bring the issue of its divinity down to mundane terms which we can all understand.

Enjoy the mystery, puff the scented smoke, that's part of it. Really chaos provides all the explanation we need however.
may I call you a contheist?

CONTHEISM, A DEFINITION
Since I just coined the term, I define it as follows: A 'contheist' is one who believes that chaos is the only reality.

WHAT CONTHEISM ACCOMPLISHES
Contheists believe that by the power of reason, science and a lot hard work, it is possible for human beings to create a kind of temporary form of order and design out of the chaos, for a certain select few at the top. This is called history.:)

AND THE ULTIMATE END?
However, at the end of all our conscious striving, there is nothing but oblivion--all that is, no matter how beautiful, wonderful good and true, will be entirely forgotten by any who survive, if any do.

No wonder, one of the characters in a Hemminway novel calls life: "A dirty trick".

Is this was contheists actually believe; that conscious life is nothing more than a "dirty trick"?

I await your response.


_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#18133 - 02/12/07 11:40 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Turner
Ellis, Thanks! I find your comments very helpful. They are quite thought provoking.
Quote:
So do you not believe in The Plan and The Designer...


Ellis, read my lips. Keep in mind: When I write, G?D, I write it to refer to everything--and I mean everything, physical, mental and spiritual.

As I understand most theologies, G?D cannot be GOD and, at any time, be less than everything. And everything includes chaos. G?D, also, includes what we think of as evil--that is, pain, suffering and death.

Does this surprise you?

TRADITIONAL THEISM AND THE DEVIL
Traditional theism solved the problem of evil by "inventing" the Devil, who traditional theists speak of as an agent of God. Read the book of Job. In Job, God allows the Devil, as his agent, to do his worst, with certain limits.

BTW, check out Job 32: THE SPEECHES OF ELIHU (MEANING GOD IS GOD)
IMHO, Elihu, the youth, is the central character of the "movie" of Job--a fact overlooked by most bible commentators.

PROTHEISM BELIEVES
However, as a protheist, as long as I am free to choose, I choose to have faith, hope and Love--notice that I capitalize it--to experience G?D as operating within, not exterior to, the plan and the design of everything.

As a protheist, I think of G?D not as the planner and designer, out there, but as part of the total process--the planner and designer from within, including you and me. G?D helps us bring order out of evil and the chaos, as we use the gifts of Faith, Hope and Love--the highest good. In the light of this, what does atheism have to offer.

I repeat: WHAT DOES ATHEISM HAVE TO OFFER?
BTW, are there any who are willing to answer this question?
I hear most atheists say: In the long run faith, hope and love are tools used by those who wish to delude themselves.

IMHO, ATHEISM SHOULD ACTUALLY BE CALLED CONTHEISM.

When you write [quote]I can never understand why people who believe in their god have to bring the issue of its divinity down to mundane terms which we can all understand.

Enjoy the mystery, puff the scented smoke, that's part of it. Really chaos provides all the explanation we need however.
may I call you a contheist?

CONTHEISM, A DEFINITION
Since I just coined the term, I define it as follows: A 'contheist' is one who believes that chaos, ending in nothingness, is the only reality.

WHAT CONTHEISM ACCOMPLISHES
Contheists believe that by the power of reason, science and a lot hard work, it is possible for human beings to create a kind of temporary form of order and design out of the chaos, for a certain select few at the top. This is called history.smile

AND THE ULTIMATE END?
However, at the end of all our conscious striving, there is nothing but oblivion--all that is, no matter how beautiful, wonderful good and true, will be entirely forgotten by any who survive, if any do.

No wonder, one of the characters in a Hemminway novel calls life: "A dirty trick".

Is this what contheists actually believe; that conscious life is nothing more than a "dirty trick"?

No wonder that Hemmingway killed himself!

I await your response.




Edited by Revlgking (02/13/07 01:26 AM)
_________________________
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#18157 - 02/15/07 03:26 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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No Rev you may NOT call me a contheist.

Incidentally look up pantheism--- that's what ( if I were as polite as you ) I would ask permission to call you), and it's nothing new! You have just made up a funny name for it.

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#18160 - 02/15/07 07:48 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
Blacknad Offline
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Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
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Ellis,

What would distinguish you from a Contheist? Apart from the fact that the term is nonsense?

But in terms of the belief in chaos ending in nothingness.

Blacknad.


Edited by Blacknad (02/15/07 07:52 AM)

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#18179 - 02/16/07 10:03 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Blacknad]
Revlgking Offline
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KEEP IN MIND: I respect all forms of beliefs, sincerely held, including atheism.

When Julian Huxley first coined the term 'agnostic' it was nonsense; until he explained what he meant. Now, I have no problem admitting that I am agnostic about a host of things.

I call myself a pro-theist--Here I include the '-' to make myself clearer--because I believe that in all things, including chaos, there is a spiritual power, or consciousness, at work.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think of an atheist as one who is contra theism--thus con-theism--that is, contra spirituality, of all kinds. I repeat: feel free to correct me.

BTW, I have no objection to being called a pantheist, especially the kind of which Tennyson writes in his poem HIGHER PANTHEISM--
http://www.sc.edu/library/spcoll/britlit/tenn/highpan.html
I also like panentheism, and unitheism--both indicating that there is more to believe in than the localized, personal, out-there-and-separate-from-us, God of theism.

The bottom line for me is: In what way does what I believe help me be an empathetic, moral, ethical, just and loving human being.


Edited by Revlgking (02/17/07 02:30 AM)
_________________________
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#18182 - 02/17/07 03:22 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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I'm just not an anything Blackie!!

I have no belief in the supernatural at all. I can't see the point. There's enough that is really real that is hard to believe without adding invisible friends with lots of baggage! And Rev wants to hang a nice big label on everyone. I don't believe in gods, the afterlife or the divine right of kings. I do believe that I neither need a label nor to have to justify why I don't.

I do not BELIEVE in Atheism. It would not be possible to believe in a non belief. I am not a theist.

PS However____I am REALLY chuffed that someone has to coin a new word to describe my non-belief---Oh! frabjus day!!

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#18183 - 02/17/07 03:22 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ *DELETED* [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Post deleted by Amaranth Rose II

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#18185 - 02/17/07 04:03 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Ellis, there is an old saying; One who stands for nothing will fall for anything! laugh

But seriously, how do you feel about being empathetic, just, moral, loving and ethical in your behaviour towards your fellow human beings?

My bottom line has to do with deeds, not creeds.


Edited by Revlgking (02/17/07 04:04 AM)
_________________________
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#18202 - 02/17/07 09:24 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
terrytnewzealand Offline
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Revlgking asked:

"I repeat: WHAT DOES ATHEISM HAVE TO OFFER?"

This is off topic Rev but did you realise that the term atheist refered originally to Christians? They didn't believe in the gods that had made Rome what it was.

But to answer your question to some extent I'll quote you again:

"But seriously, how do you feel about being empathetic, just, moral, loving and ethical in your behaviour towards your fellow human beings?"

All this has nothing to do with whether you're atheist, Buddhist, Christian, Muslim or pantheist. It depends on the success or otherwise of your socialisation as you were growing up. All human beings have to be socialised into their tribe. If the process is not successful we call them psycopaths. Now, what does atheism offer? I'd say a realistic view of existence.

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#18205 - 02/17/07 08:26 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: terrytnewzealand]
Revlgking Offline
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Terry--and feel free to call me Linds, short for Lindsay--you mention: "... did you realise that the term atheist refered originally to Christians?"

Yes, Socrates (469?-499 B.C.E.) too, was called an atheist, because he did not believe in the gods on Mount olympus.
In my opinion, Socrates simply offered a concept of god which differed from that of the dominant one of the day.


BTW, by some, I have been called an atheist simply because I question traditional theism.

http://www.wku.edu/~jan.garrett/pgods.htm is an excellent site on the theology of Socrates. Here is a quote from it:
Quote:
"Socrates is guilty of believing in deities of his own invention instead of the gods recognized by the city." (Apol. 24b) In effect, then, Socrates is accused of teaching new gods.

This point is often lost sight of because during the trial, when Socrates actually confronts his accuser, Meletus shifts his ground and accuses Socrates not of teaching new gods, but of not believing in any gods at all. Yet the charge that Socrates taught new gods was probably in the original indictment."


THEOLOGY OF THE ANCIENT GREEKS
Interestingly, the Greek word for "I run" is the?; and the Greek word for god is "theos."

They saw the gods as, coursing, or running, across the sky--the heavens (Ouranos), above mother earth (Gaia).

He (Socrates) was, apparently, quite willing to pay his respects to the traditional gods, Zeus, Athena, etc.; all evidence points to him being a polytheist. He agreed with Homer and Hesiod that these gods had bodies and would never die. However, the gods of Homer were human-like and lived by their passions; the gods of Socrates behave more...well, more god-like...idealistically
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http://www.wku.edu/~jan.garrett/philvws.htm#Hartshor

One of the most important contemporary philosophers to try this approach is Charles Hartshorne. You might be attracted to Hartshorne's view if you find that the idea of a mind existing completely independent of a body makes no sense to you.

For Hartshorne, God is both immanent and transcendent. That is to say, God's divine mind is present in the physical universe as a whole but also transcends or surpasses it. Hartshorne's view is that the universe is in God, or as it is sometimes called, "panentheism" (from Greek pan (all) + en (in) + theos (god))... nothing is outside of Hartshorne's God; for the whole physical universe, including our bodies, is His body.

I like what Hartshorne writes, theologically.
========================================================
Terry, in answer to my question,"What does atheism offer?" You answered,"I'd say a realistic view of existence."

I respond: Good! As a pro-theist/unitheist/panentheist I am all for being realistic. It fits in very well with what I mean when I write G?D, as in my signature.





Edited by Revlgking (02/17/07 08:30 PM)
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G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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