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coberst Offline OP
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Natural Science “don allow no meaning in here”!

Natural science clears the land before it builds its structures. NATURAL SCIENCE IS BULLDOZIER might be a useful linguistic metaphor for comprehending how the natural sciences function.

The first thing that a Normal Science (as defined by Thomas Kuhn) does is create a paradigm, which is to say that the bulldozer comes in and clears the land of all obstructions and establishes a foundation upon the solid rock of “measurement by standards”. If it cannot be properly measured in accordance to an established paradigm it does not exist. Since emotion, feeling, and meaning cannot be so measured then such things must be removed.

Only the measurable and the commodified are meaningful in the land of the natural and economic sciences.

This habit of removing all the things that do not fit the science has allowed the natural and economic sciences to be very productive in the human competition with Mother Nature. But I claim that this success, obtained by eliminating considerations based upon human meaning, comes at a heavy price.

The science of economics has emulated the natural sciences and has reaped great successes as a result; if one does not take into consideration the human, social, and ecological costs of such sciences one can be deluded into bulldozing aside all considerations of human meaning as we construct our high tech society.

In his book The Great Transformation: The Political and Economic Origins of Our Time Karl Polanyi argues that a self-regulating market economy requires “that human beings and the natural environment be turned into pure commodities, which assures the destruction of both society and the natural environment…the definition of a commodity is something that has been produce for sale on a market…land, labor, and money are fictitious commodities because they were not produced for sale on a market…Modern economics starts by pretending that these fictitious commodities will behave in the same way as real commodities…economic theorizing is based on a lie, and this lie places human society at risk.”

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Originally Posted By: coberst
The first thing that a Normal Science (as defined by Thomas Kuhn) does is create a paradigm,

Buzzz...sorry, that answer is incorrect.

The way real science works is simple:


If that is not clear, it goes like this:
1) You come up with an idea as to how something you are studying may work (called a hypothesis),
2) You design a study to test that idea, and then conduct that test (i.e. experiments, observing nature, etc)
3) You determine if the results of those experiments/observations fit you hypothesis.
4a) If your results do not support your hypothesis (the norm, btw), you come up with a new hypothesis that explains your results, and then come up with new experiments that test your new hypothesis.
4b)If you results support your hypothesis you come up with more experiments to test your hypothesis, as well as try to expand on that hypothesis by using it as a basis for further hypotheses and experiments.

Over time you build up a large quantity of data, along with a large number of failed hypotheses, and a handful of successful hypothesis. Once enough data is acquired, and your results have been validated by other scientists, you develop a scientific theory, which to be scientific must:

1) Explain, and be consistent with all known data in regards to the scientific concept under question,
2) Be testable - meaning that the tenants of the theory can be validated through observation of nature, or through experiments
3) Be predictive - meaning that the theory accurately predicts the results of the observations/experiments in condition #2, and finally
4) A theory must be falsifiable, meaning if it is wrong, it is possible to show it to be wrong.

-----------------------------
That is how real science works - we take into account all data - including data from "failed" hypotheses, and based on that data synthesize a model (theory) which explains why those experiments/observations gave the results they did, and which predicts the results of future experiments/observations.

Theories are also mutable - as new data is uncovered they are altered (or replaced outright with new theories) in order to account for the new data.

What you are describing is religion:



Originally Posted By: coberst
Since emotion, feeling, and meaning cannot be so measured then such things must be removed.


Start with a false assumption, come to a false conclusion.

Emotions are eminently quantifiable - they are, after all, the result of well understood neurological pathways. Be if fMRI, PET scans, or biochemistry, we can measure emotion directly, or indirectly via semi-quantitative psychological criteria.

Originally Posted By: coberst
The science of economics has emulated the natural sciences and has reaped great successes as a result;

Err, no. Modern economics are pretty much based on the complete ignorance of nature & mathematics. Our current economic system is based on the assumption of infinite growth. This is a physical impossibility due to the limiting nature of resources. Nature works in the polar opposite fashion - life has evolved under the "assumption" of limited resources and limited growth.

Originally Posted By: coberst
if one does not take into consideration the human, social, and ecological costs of such sciences one can be deluded into bulldozing aside all considerations of human meaning as we construct our high tech society.

Bullshit. Science is simply knowledge (that is, literally, what the latin word scientia translates to). How that knowledge is used is what determines its value. Understanding how an atom works, or how life evolves, has no impact what-so-ever on our society. How we apply that knowledge, however, does.

Originally Posted By: coberst
In his book The Great Transformation: The Political and Economic Origins of Our Time Karl Polanyi argues that a self-regulating market economy

And since our economy is not self-regulating, in fact it is chaotic (mathematically speaking), the point is?

Start with a false assumption, come to a false conclusion. Events like the recent recession come as no surprise to those of us familiar with mathematics and science - its an inevitable product of a system which makes a point of ignoring the very basic mathematical principals that could lead to stability.

Bryan


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coberst Offline OP
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ImagingGreek

Well done!!

Me and Kuhn disagree with a few items but agree with much of what you have written.

Last edited by coberst; 06/25/10 09:51 AM.

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