Science a GoGo's Home Page Forums General Discussion Climate Change Forum free energy in the gulf of mexico

Just get a plastic bottle, fill it with water and punch a few holes in it, at the bottom, in the middle and near the top. You can directly see the effect of the pressure gradient.

Well ,I wasnt wanting to actually perform the experiment
but you leave me no choice.

I personaly think the vacume in the top will cause a lower pressure at the bottom than the weight of the water could present to the bottom.

after all a 1" pipe can do the same job
and a pressure guage is cheap.

the whole test will cost no more than $10.00

and I can use a 10 ft lenght of pipe.

this way I can put this to rest and if you dont agree with
my findings then you can perform your own test.

If I poke holes in a closed container then its no longer a closed container.

I did ask you what the ("pressure guage would read")
and at a 28 ft height water pressure is only
28 x .433 psi = 12.124 psi

how are you geting 27 psi water pressure at the bottom?

because the pressure guage at the bottom is reading the pressure of the water weight (12 psi) AND the air pressure inside the tube.
At the beginning this will be the standard pressure of 1 atm = 15 psi.

Yea like Momos said. Sure I used absolute pressure instead of gauge pressure, but I stated that so just do the conversion.

Top: 15 , bottom: 15
Top: 10 , bottom: 10
Top: 5 , bottom: 5
Top: 0 , bottom: 0

I did not include the pressure that is the result of the
weight of the water.

only the pressure of the water that is the result of the
pressure above the water.

so its clear that with a few pumps on a hand pump you can
have a zero guage pressure at the bottom.

this means that you can generate HHO at the bottom of the pipe
for much less energy.

and you can extract energy from the buoyant HHO as it rises.

now when the HHO rises to the top you can convert it back into water in a fuel cell
(that doesnt care that its in a vacuum)
you get more energy out , than you put in.

and you still have the same exact vacuum.
and the same exact amount of water.

this can be a continous cycle.

that just outputs electricity.

according to a fuel cell described below
the annode and cathode are made of metals
and they sandwich the electrolyte between them.
therefore being in a vacuum wouldnt matter.

a basic fuel cell



and one other plus !!

a fuel cell generates much heat , so the water will absorb this heat along with the pipe , so a heat exchanger inside the pipe can be used to supply hot water , thereby removing the heat generated from the water inside of the pipe , and the entire pipe can be inside another pipe to remove the heat that transfers to the pipe itself.

thereby effectlively removing all heat generated durring the generation process and supplying hot water to a home
as a byproduct along with the excess electricity generated from the HHO and the excess electricity generated from the buoyancy of the HHO.

1 excess energy from HHO generation and conversion.
2 excess energy from buoyancy.
3 excess energy from hot water.

you will need to supply a constant vacuum at the top
that will allow for the start up process to begin.
and you will actually be pumping out HHO durring this
vacuming process as the start up processes begin.
ie...

the buoyant system is full of HHO and rotating.
the fuel cell is fully functioning and producing electricity.

then you can close the valve between the vacuum pump
and the process should continue.

OK yep, so it's as if you were generating it in the ambient air.

Importantly and going round in circles, as soon as you generate some HHO at the bottom, it'll fill the vacuum. Then you have to pump it out all over again.




Here's a better idea. Burn a pile of coal and supply the excess heat to a home as a byproduct of the heat you use to cook your dinner.

no ,its as if I am generating it in a atmosphere lower
than the ambient air.

yes it will fill the vacuum , thats why I said you would need to use a pump to maintain the vacuum as the statup processes begin.

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you seem to be clinging to the only remaining thing you can think of to try and explain it away , and that is
your insistance that somehow the water will still have
12 psi water pressure at the bottom of the pipe.

think of the water in the pipe as a long piston in a hydraulic system , because that is basicaly what it is.

sure the piston still weights the same , but in this scenario the piston is being pulled upwards.

to prove this if I were to poke a hole in the bottom of
the pipe and stick your finger in the hole , then apply the vacuum , would your finger be pulled in by the vacuum or would your finger be pushed out by the 12 psi water pressure that you are clinging to.

--------------------------------------------------

heres yet another method to determine that I am right.

place a valve between the bottom of the pipe and
a 1 ft riser pipe so that a hose can connect
at 1 ft above the bottom of the pipe.

connect a 27 ft see through water hose to the 1 ft riser pipe at the bottom of the pipe.

1) close the valve.
2) then fill the pipe with water.
3) then place the cap on top.
4) then place the vacuum on the air gap at the top.
5) get a ladder and take the other end of the hose
to the top of the pipe
6) pour in enought water in the hose at the top to
give the water in the hose a 1 ft height.
7) open the valve.

now carry the hose back down the ladder.

now look at the see through water hose !!!!

you will find that all the water pressure you are dreaming of is gone , and there isnt even enought to let you get any water out of the hose , even though the water is
at a 28 ft height inside the pipe.

why wont the water come out , it should come out because
of all the pressure gradient?
but where is the pressure from the pressure gradient now?

now as you know things get even simpler as we proceed.

to avoid the cost of a fuel cell , we can simply use a
rubber hose , like a water hose for a car , or a thick rubber balloon inside the pipe that is filled with water the balloon is confined so that it cannot expand further
than a desired expansion.

the expansion can be accomplished using a pipe with holes drilled in it.
the vacuum holds the rubber balloon expanded inside the pipe with holes drilled in it until the HHO
rises to the top.

then the HHO is ignighted , thus causing an explosive force to press down on the top of the water.

squeezing the now pressurized water in the balloon out through a check valve.

then the resulting vacuum pulls more water into the balloon through another check valve.

you can still have the buoyancy of the HHO inside the pipe
or you can just have a water pump.

So you actually mean "you need a pump continually as long as the machine is running", not just at startup. Please try to be clearer.



Hey how about from now on whenever we mention a pressure we explicitly state if it's absolute or gauge pressure? I think you're getting really mixed up. And I can never be sure which you mean.

Absolute pressure:
0psi = complete vacuum
15psi = normal ambient air pressure at sea level

Gauge pressure:
-15psi = complete vacuum
0psi = normal ambient air pressure at sea level


Here's the pipe with water, fully evacuated at the top, using _absolute_ pressures:

top pressure = 0psi
bottom pressure
= pressure caused by the weight of everything in the pipe
+ pressure at the top of the pipe
= 12psi + 0psi
= 12psi

Now here's the exact same system using gauge pressures:
top pressure = -15psi
bottom pressure
= pressure caused by the weight of everything in the pipe
+ pressure at the top of the pipe
= 12psi + -15psi
= -3psi

Regardless of which way you look at it, that's a little below ambient air pressure, so we could call it a 'vacuum' even tho it's filled with water.

If you think I said there's more pressure the bottom than the ambient, then re-read what I said, paying attention to what kind of pressure I was using.


It would be pulled in by the 12psi of absolute pressure, because that's less than the 15psi on the other side of your finger.


Now what's the point of all this?

I thought that I was pretty clear.



the point is that the pressure is lower at the bottom of the pipe where the HHO
is being generated , thereby using less energy to generate HHO.

the HHO can supply energy as it rises up the 28 ft pipe.

the fuel cell can recover more energy than the energy
that was used to generate the HHO.

and you also have whatever you can get from the buoyancy.

plus you have any heat that is the result of friction
and HHO generation.

OK I think I get it now.

It's exactly the same as before, but with a vacuum, right?

Make HHO down below, float it up, use it, drop the water exhaust back in.

The only advantage it has over no vacuum is you're generating the HHO at 3psi below atmospheric. That's all. So what? Just do it on Mars and it's even better.

What do you suppose the efficiency of HHO generation is in complete vacuum? Less than 100%? If so, then no amount of vacuum can be good. Maybe it improves from 80% to 90%, but that's not enough for perpetual motion.

Please stop talking about using waste heat. All engines generate waste heat, the less efficient they are the more heat they make. It's just a pointless distraction to an already confusing topic. Some of the heat from a car's engine is used to heat the cabin on cold days, but people don't actually drive round with coffee machines, so the rest is just dumped. Why do you think power plants have cooling towers? It's because they can't think of any use for all that heat, so they get rid of it by boiling water into the air. If you have a new idea for using waste heat, then make a new thread and keep it separate from HHO.

thats all so what?

so what !!!

HHO generated at 1 atm can deliver apx 43 liters a hour.
HHO generated at .75 atm can deliver apx 85 liters a hour.

using the same amount of energy...

85 liters an hour buoyancy alone is pretty good excess energy.

and why should I stop talking about using waste heat when
waste heat uses up apx 77% of our energy resources.

I have stopped using my heat pump air conditioning that used to run all day long using up apx 3kWh every hour it was running.

I now use apx 300 watts in my geothermal cooling system.

and all it does is circulate water through a pipe and exchange the coolness of the water in the ground with the heat in the house.

so Im saving 2.7 kWh each hour on my electricity bill.

that adds up to quite a savings each month.
2.7 kWh x 24 x 30 days = 1944 kWh a month

or to compare the usage
3 kWh x 24 x 30 days = 2160 kWh a month
vs
.3 kWh x 24 x 30 days = 216 kWh a month

the way we use energy and the way we use heat is our main
problem.

and for you to sudgest that we shouldnt concern ourselves with waste heat just because all engines that we currently use waste heat , is like saying we should just throw our
money away because we have a trash can.

just because all engines that we currently use waste heat
doesnt mean we shouldnt try to remedy that.

Yea by all means finding a use for otherwise wasted heat is good. But this HHO machine doesn't depend on it, so talking about it just makes things more complicated to think about.

Geothermal cooling? Awesome. How much did that cost? How deep is it? I heard they were planning to do that with the London underground a few years ago.


1 liter of HHO at 0.75 atm contains fewer molecules, less mass and less energy than 1 liter of HHO at 1 atm. Why not just express it as efficiency? Then it's plain as day whether it's any good or not.

not really !!

its true that at .75 atm 1 liter of HHO has fewer molecules
by volume than it would have at 1 atm , but the number of molecules produced increases in .75 atm using the Faraday formula that I used.

this is because the water itself has not expanded because of the lower .75 atm pressure as water
does not stretch because of pressure or vacuum until it can vaporize , and if it vaporizes its no longer water its water vapor.

so your still producing a larger number of molecules.
only it will fill a larger volume in a .75 atm atmosphere.

like a balloon expands bigger and bigger as it rises higher
and higher into lower and lower pressure in our atmosphere , until it expands so much that it explodes.

the same amount of gas it just fits in a larger volume.

------------------------------------
the gothermal system was built by me.

I traded the use of copper for the economicaly priced pex tubing used in
geothermal floor space heating systems , I have 100 ft of the pex tubing
apx 25 ft inside a shallow well that I use for the garden.
I put the well down using water pressure !! and a 3" pipe with a city water
pressure hose attached at the top.

then I pumped off the well basin with a 3 hp air compresssor , simply by
running the air hose down into the well pipe and valving the air on and off
the air pressure builds up and then shoots a sand and water mixture up and out of
the pipe.

the circulation is done by a 1/40 HP circulation pump that uses apx 50 watts.


the heat exchanger inside the house is a commercial type heat exchanger
that circulates the cold transfered into the pex pipe in the well.
and the blower fan on it uses apx 200 watts , I have also installed a
roof mounted attic vent fan that removes the hotter air that was being
trapped in the attic.
the attic vent fan uses apx 50 watts

50 + 200 + 50 = 300 watts !!!!!

its funny because I use the cfl light bulbs also
and my geothermal system uses less energy than the lights !!!

alot of these systems use pumps to actually lift water up from a well
then circulate the cold water through a heat exchanger then they dump the
now warmer water back into a seperate well.

this method waste energy as simply circulating the water does not require the additional energy required to actually lift the water.

Regarding the HHO. Please give some proper numbers instead of the misleading /liter ones. Ideally the HHO produced would be measured in units of energy or power! But knowing the mass is a pretty good next best.

Have you found the pressure where efficiency is greatest? Is that at complete vacuum? Or maybe even at high pressure??



------

That cooling system sounds great. Is it 25ft deep or 25ft length spread around? How spread around it is?

I suppose you can get away with recirculating the same water because it's not using much. Perhaps if you cooled a whole building you'd need such a huge amount of piping underground you might as well just pay a bit more for pumping.

refering to the program I made you can set all the other settings to any combination of current , watts , volts , temperature , but when you reduce the pressure below 1 atm the output volume increases , likewise when you increase the pressure above 1 atm the output volume decreases , and it tells you the number of hydrogen molecules and oxygen molecules that is produced in an amp hour.

the lower the pressure , the higher the output volume.
I have my program set to deny anything over
29.92 inch Hg vacuum pressure (1 atm).

and at that pressure it shows the highest output volume.

my next addition to the program will be for calculating the
number of cells to use as the program now only calculates the volume of output of a single cell.
I will probably have paralell and series cells in a
arrangeable visual display.

I might then include a circuit board diagram that will
assist in the building of the circuit that controls the current going to the cells.

its much better to build it , and test it , in a simulator first , given your simulator includes the proper factors involved.





I have about $50.00 in the 1/40 HP pump.(used)
$30.00 in the pex pipe
probably another $50.00 in the pipe and fittings between the pex and the heat exchanger.
and apx $100.00 in the heat exchanger.(new but old)

and $70.00 in the attic vent.

so I have around $230.00 tied up in it -- LOL

the more pipe you have , the number of sharp turns , the smoothness of the pipe , along with the inside area of the pipe , and the cooling fluids mass and viscocity are the most important factors.

yes you most likely will need a large pump for a large building
and according to the area inside the building , you will need more heat exchangers.

a pump can only supply a certain rated pressure and flow rate.

but a well designed pipe system can mean the difference between a 10 HP pump and a 1 HP pump.

the 100 ft of pex is at the bottom of the 25 ft shallow well
and coiled around inside the well basin that I pumped off.

Maybe this whole idea of more efficiency at lower pressure was a complete mistake. Maybe it was just that more volume comes out?



Wow. Wouldn't it be an idea to simulate the critical and nobel-prize-winning aspect of it before worrying about such details?





Yea I was referring to dumping the hot water into the open ground instead of recirculating it like you do. That would save you the loads of extra piping you'd need for a large system.

why bother with a geothermal system then.

just use a pile of air conditioners = no piping , just thousands of dollars each month to pay for the electric bill.