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#27628 - 08/28/08 06:43 PM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: Rallem]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Rallem

Im sure that the starving hungry peoples would have sympathy
on you if you were frozen solid durring a sudden artic freeze over that could occur if eratic climate changes continue.

or even if it were a more harsh senario such as a caldera on greenland , surely this has nothing to do with bio-fuel crops being a crime or does it?

bio-fuels still emit CO2

solar - wind - nuclear - free , energy does not.

...
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#27629 - 08/28/08 08:35 PM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: paul]
Rallem Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 194
Loc: South Royalton, Vermont
I am not looking for sympathy from anyone over my weather conditions, and I don't believe the co2 emissions mankind puts out is fully responsible for any climate changes we may be experiencing. With that said I think it is possible that biofuels may actually help mankind reduce its output of co2 into the atmosphere. My reasoning may seem a little convoluted, but lately one of the practices that oil refineries have been performing here in America is to trap any co2 emissions coming from their smoke stacks and pressurize it into liquid form so it can be shipped to Canada to be pumped into the ground so that more oil can be extracted from there. The oil refineries are no longer looking at co2 emissions as a waste product they are trying to get rid of, but now co2 is an asset for them to sell. Now for the biofuels, I do not remember where I got this information from but I think I heard it on NPR, and I think it said that bio fuels may produce less co2 in the vehicles but it produces more co2 in the refining/distillation of the biofuels, so why not have the biofuel manufacturing plants trap their co2 emissions and sell them to oil fields so they can get more co2 from the ground? If the biofuel manufacturers can trap their co2 emissions, then why not have all of the manufacturers do the same which should greatly reduce the co2 footprint of mankind on the planet?

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#27674 - 09/03/08 11:53 AM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: Mike Kremer]
james01
Unregistered


A PROMINENT United Nations activist against famine has demanded a five-year moratorium on biofuels as a new report showed Australia could use its sugar to become a major global provider of ethanol.

The UN Special Rapporteur on the right to food, Jean Ziegler, said it was a "crime against humanity" to convert food crops to fuel, driving up food prices when there are 854 million hungry people in the world.
James
http://www.crackcocaineaddictiontreatment.com

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#27676 - 09/03/08 08:37 PM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: ]
Rallem Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 194
Loc: South Royalton, Vermont
I don't see the UN doing anything against the rising prices of fuel, but does it really matter? The UN is nothing but a toothless dog which can bark rather loudly but has not power to back up its warnings.

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#27683 - 09/05/08 08:05 PM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: Rallem]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Rallem
The UN is nothing but a toothless dog which can bark rather loudly but has not power to back up its warnings.

Yea, but whose fault is that? (asked rhetorically; I know, it's the US's)

btw:
I think I've agreed with all that's been said above about the "crime" part of biofuels displacing food....

But why does nobody talk about producing biofuels on marginal (poor, unused) soils. That is also an option; we're not just limited to a food vs. fuel choice.

Growing on marginal soils (providing jobs for poor poeples and refugees) will also sequester much more carbon than simply replacing food with fuel. Win-win!

http://ipsnews.net/africa/nota.asp?idnews=42982
"Planting more trees is the only long-term solution to the wood shortage -- and CARE does have a small nursery at Iridimi where two shifts of around 20 workers -- all refugees -- tend thousands of tiny seedlings. But many of the young trees die from a lack of water, Djimdim says, and even those that survive might need three years before they start producing firewood."

Now as a scientist, I ask why "the young trees die from a lack of water?"
Isn't this a refugee camp, on marginal soil, with lots of human wastes ...needing processing?
...organic processing, ...by growing biomass ...for fuel ...to trade for food, etc.

Am I missing something here, or is everyone else?

Biofuels offer a way to restore the land and support populations; but yes, they have to be done the right way; not replacing existing arable land and food supplies.
That truly is a crime.

...but to repeat, there is a third option:
Biofuels offer a way to restore the land and support populations.

smile

_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#27686 - 09/06/08 09:14 PM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: samwik]
Rallem Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 194
Loc: South Royalton, Vermont
Originally Posted By: samwik
Originally Posted By: Rallem
The UN is nothing but a toothless dog which can bark rather loudly but has not power to back up its warnings.

Yea, but whose fault is that? (asked rhetorically; I know, it's the US's)

btw:
I think I've agreed with all that's been said above about the "crime" part of biofuels displacing food....

But why does nobody talk about producing biofuels on marginal (poor, unused) soils. That is also an option; we're not just limited to a food vs. fuel choice.

Growing on marginal soils (providing jobs for poor poeples and refugees) will also sequester much more carbon than simply replacing food with fuel. Win-win!

http://ipsnews.net/africa/nota.asp?idnews=42982
"Planting more trees is the only long-term solution to the wood shortage -- and CARE does have a small nursery at Iridimi where two shifts of around 20 workers -- all refugees -- tend thousands of tiny seedlings. But many of the young trees die from a lack of water, Djimdim says, and even those that survive might need three years before they start producing firewood."

Now as a scientist, I ask why "the young trees die from a lack of water?"
Isn't this a refugee camp, on marginal soil, with lots of human wastes ...needing processing?
...organic processing, ...by growing biomass ...for fuel ...to trade for food, etc.

Am I missing something here, or is everyone else?

Biofuels offer a way to restore the land and support populations; but yes, they have to be done the right way; not replacing existing arable land and food supplies.
That truly is a crime.

...but to repeat, there is a third option:
Biofuels offer a way to restore the land and support populations.

smile



How can you blame the U.S. for the poor condition of the U.N.? We started the U.N. and gave it property in the most important city in the world, New York. It's all you third world countries like Germany and Australia who've ruined the U.N. with your insistence on a vote when you really donít matter. jk smile

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#27753 - 09/15/08 07:18 AM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: Rallem]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Aside from the one line remark about the UN (which could be a new topic)...

Any thoughts on the other 15-20 lines about other options?

re:
Restoring degraded lands, and not using arable land,
should be the focus when growing biofuel crops.

~ smile
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#27805 - 09/20/08 09:16 PM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: samwik]
Rallem Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 194
Loc: South Royalton, Vermont
There is a tree which I think is called the Jathropa tree or something like that, and it produces a fruit with a pit inside that can be turned into a diesel fuel alternative. The tree has an advantage of growing in poor soil conditions, and growing rather quickly, but has a disadvantage of only producing about one gallon of fuel a year per tree.

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#27904 - 09/29/08 09:52 PM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: Rallem]
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: Rallem
There is a tree which I think is called the Jathropa tree or something like that, and it produces a fruit with a pit inside that can be turned into a diesel fuel alternative. The tree has an advantage of growing in poor soil conditions, and growing rather quickly, but has a disadvantage of only producing about one gallon of fuel a year per tree.


Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer


After re-reading the posts to "BioFuels are a Crime" ....I have
been struck by the simplicity of the idea put forward by Samwick, when he stated, two posts above:-



Originally Posted By: by Samwick



Restoring degraded lands, and not using arable land,
should be the focus when growing biofuel crops.
Samwick.
.



Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer

THAT IS A FABULOUS IDEA, SAMWICK. YOUR IDEA EVEN PROVOKED RALLEM TO MAKE THE REPLY REGARDING THE BILBAO TREE ABOVE

Yes, But to grow in degraded lands ie. Sand Deserts is probably impossibly idealistic...even unobtainable.
But new ideas come from discussions like yours.
Here is mine. A result of your original idea Sam-

Forget about Deserts...think Sea, Salty Ocean Sea's.....and the harvesting of Seaweeds!!
Theres thousands/millions of tons of seaweed just waiting to be harvested for Its Oil Content!
The residue to be used for re-fertilisation of the land.

Investigations as to whether deep sea, or coastal seaweeds would yield the most oil, could be done tomorrow. Keep the the land for food growing, and help the world of tomorrow.
End.
.





Edited by Mike Kremer (09/29/08 10:03 PM)
_________________________
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"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#27905 - 09/30/08 03:47 AM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: Mike Kremer]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Thanks Mike,
Just a few hours ago someone else told me I had some neat ideas too. ...a good day.

Maybe you missed this July post:
http://www.scienceagogo.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=27312#Post27312

"...and on top of that...!

Algae can produce up to 8000 gallons of biodiesel/acre. That's got to be better than a hydroxide-based scrubber, for soaking up CO2; don't you think?

http://denver.bizjournals.com/denver/stories/2008/01/28/story4.html?b=1201496400%5E1581925

Quote:
Originally Posted By: re: Solix
"Most of the startup companies working on this are using the basic science on algae that NREL did many years ago," NREL spokesman George Douglas said. "Everybody's looking for the same thing -- How to grow and process the algae and harvest the oil and process the oil. You can grow algae on marginal lands, or in the ocean. It reproduces quickly, doesn't take up cropland or other spaces. And it absorbs carbon dioxide."


...also from the article....
"And algae is prolific when it comes to oil production.
Experts estimate the organisms can make 8,000 to 10,000 gallons of oil per year per acre, compared to 50 or 60 gallons per year using soybeans, 20 gallons using corn, and 150 gallons using canola or rapeseeds."

p.s. I've seen numbers more like 100-400 gallons for corn, and up to 2000 gallons for coppiced poplar or willow; but still that's no 8,000 to 10,000 gallons/acre!
===end post copy===

p.s.
Mike, re: the problem with sandy soils....
They can be converted to rich, sequestering, arable soils by the application of composted manures, other wastes, and bio-chars.
...and water (and care).

Thanks again,
~ smile
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#28022 - 10/11/08 06:05 AM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: Mike Kremer]
sam2008 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 2
Biofuel is defined as solid, liquid or gas fuel derived from recently dead biological material and is distinguished from fossil fuels, which are derived from long dead biological material. Theoretically, biofuels can be produced from any (biological) carbon source; although, the most common sources are photosynthetic plants. Various plants and plant-derived materials are used for biofuel manufacturing. Globally, biofuels are most commonly used to power vehicles, heating homes cornstoves and cooking stoves. Biofuel industries are expanding in Europe, Asia and the Americas.
_____________________________________________________________


Edited by Kate (10/11/08 09:56 AM)

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#28029 - 10/12/08 02:12 AM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: sam2008]
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: sam2008
.....................................>................> Biofuel industries are expanding in Europe, Asia and the Americas.
_____________________________________________________________


Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer


Mores the pity. At the moment more Bio-fuels equates to more forests cut down, less food grown by the poor, more cars for the rest of us,and more pollution for everyone.
Dangerous diesel exausts, contain larger particulates than gasoline, collected and held in our lungs more efficiently than tobacco smoke.
If cars, world wide were produced with a 1000cc engine, max:
and Airflights were doubled in price. We would all save money, ...help reverse the climate trend, by cutting down on the worlds atmospheric dusts. Allowing the nations to eat their own grown food, instead of Airfreighting it away, to every supermarket on the other side of the world.

The present Market imbalances, are not going to correct themselves unless we all have a hand in self regulation.
The idea in the above para, does not seem too difficult to obtain?

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"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#33281 - 01/24/10 08:53 PM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: Mike Kremer]
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer
[quote=sam2008].....................................>................> Biofuel industries are expanding in Europe, Asia and the Americas.
___________________________________________________________


[quote=Mike Kremer]

Here we are Proof,... that 'Biofuel crops' are a CRIME.
I knew this would come up sooner or later.
"The Final Proof that Food, Fuels Cars, not Stomachs"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jan/22/quarter-us-grain-biofuels-food

And its barely 2 years since this post was started
_________________________
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"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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