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#32572 - 11/07/09 05:09 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend
Socratus,

This does not seem to be a very well-controlled experiment.
Uri Geller performs much more impressive tricks,
but that's what he's doing - tricks.

===========================
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYGjtlgGtY4&feature=player_embedded

. . . . etc
===

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#32574 - 11/07/09 06:09 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
Andrew Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/04/09
Posts: 3
Loc: Ontario, Canada
HI REV, seems I have not figured out how to 'quote' in the box. Should have previewed my post to eccles.

Your daughter and her partner sound like very gifted and fascinating individuals. What an amazing adventure.. to live within nature in peace and harmony with the environment! ..Awesome!

A few years ago I had a studio in a warehouse in Cambridge Ontario, right on the grand river. It was third story, with several large windows facing west, watching the sunset every day of the year, and watching the river flow and the Herons feed on the shoreline.. IT was a place of much healing for myself, and learning the Art of Being. IT too, was place of living art and 20 years of growing.

Right now I am in a small cottage right on the pond in a small town called Ayr...south of Kitchener. The banners on the streetlamps say "AYR- WHERE TIME STANDS STILL". Come to think of it, ever since i moved here time seems to stand still. It's a place where stranger smile and say hello, even if they do not know you.

IT seems there are places where peace does exist, as on your daughters floating work of art..

I believe living one's passion is a true sense of art, science and spirit...and within nature ..this IS our connection to the Divine. It is NOT to be interpreted or explained, but to be Experienced. For in this experience we merge with the Oneness some inadequately attempt to describe as 'god'. [u][/u]
_________________________
"The most beautiful is the mysterious" ~Einstein

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#32576 - 11/07/09 06:37 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Andrew Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/04/09
Posts: 3
Loc: Ontario, Canada
[eccles]Andrew,

Has it occured to you that you might have exchanged the fruits of one "tree of gullibity" for those of a whole orchard of others ? i.e. Is there anything bar standard religion that you are NOT prepared to use for your prophecy of "a quantum leap in consciousness" ?

>>>>>>>>eccles, Yes, I have considered that. Perhaps gullibility is best reserved for those who consider anything but the most rigorously accepted status quo reality as fact, without consideration of the evidence presented by numerous research scientists in search of the nature of multi-dimensional potentialities. Dr Ian Stevenson on reincarnation, Robert Monroe on astral/soul travel and out of body experiences, Elizabeth Kuebler-Ross on life after death and near death experiences. Perhaps to some here they are out of the realm of science OR religion. Perhaps a more recent addition would be Dr John Mack , head of psychiatry at Harvard and his groundbreaking work on alien abduction experiences. The bodies of works produced by these highly educated and respected travelers into the multi-dimensional nature of the Multiverse, are only a small reference in connection to many tens of thousands of years of higher consciousness experiences by our aboriginal ancestors. As Chief Seattle aptly put it over 150 years ago::..."WE do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children"

True innovation in science and University research is dead, according to neuroscientist Dr Michael Persinger, whom I recently interviewed at length. His comments, not mine, the reason being ..government and corporate funding dictates into which direction research is to be done. Reality in knowledge today is now to be guided according to 'the powers that be'. Numerous innovations, historical data and archeological finds have been suppressed which would change our understanding of the world, our heritage AND history in the blink of an eye .

In my humble opinion, it is your own belief structure which dictates what is your truth and reality, for you. If it not real for you, it simply is not real to you.

Little experience recounted by Dr Edgar Mitchell (6th man to walk on the moon) in a recent book by Gregg Bradden, Mitchell traveled the world looking for a healer to heal his mother of blindness. He found one, she was healed, and overjoyed to "SEE". When she slowly came down from her 'high' of being healed of blindness, she asked about the beliefs of the healer. Once she found out the healer was NOT a christian, she renounced the healing due to the healers' pagan origins AND BELIEFS, and said..she wished it had never happened. AND SO IT WAS. She promptly lost her sight and became blind again.<<<<<<<<<




In psychology there is what is known as a "schizophrenogenic family", i.e a social grouping whose communicative mode tends to precipitate schizophrenic symptoms in one or more of its members.

>>>>>>>>>I see what you refer to as 'schizophrenogenic'... also evident in organized sports, politics, corporations, higher education , organized unions and the labor movement, and most importantly THE MEDIA..all of whom I have had the experience to working with and for , one way or another in the last 20 years. <<<<<<<<<


I put it to you that your socialzation amongst Jehova's Witnesses could have been "bizarre-belief-ogenic". Or to put it more simply, you are looking for something to fill the gaps left, after your rejection of your first belief system.

>>>>>>>> According to Dr Persinger, we have about as many neurons in our brain as there are stars in our galaxy, the milky way. Myself, I am a perpetual researcher for truth, knowledge and justice for all. I could care less about what other people believe. I do not 'need' a belief to 'fill any gap'. I am too far out in left field having composed and made up my own, for most people to accept me into 'their' fold. And that's just fine, because I make up my own belief based on what evidence makes sense to my intuition . If no one else was to see or accept that evidence for themselves, or does not have the time to pursue the evidence, that does not make their awareness or perception more truthful, powerful or important or any more or less real than mine is to me. It is simply like beauty, in the eye of the beholder...So if you do not see what I see, perhaps you don't need a pagan healer either :>)<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Cheers

PS..perhaps you have a point after all..not everything and everyone is headed for a quantum leap in consciousness. After all, certain aspects of this reality are certainly winding down rapidly...like a lot of peoples' pensions, retirement and mutual funds. Not to forget mentioning, a lot of jobs and careers will never be the same.

And for those out in line to get their dose of the flu shot, I can guarantee you that their quantum leap will certainly not be into higher consciousness.;>)
_________________________
"The most beautiful is the mysterious" ~Einstein

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#32577 - 11/07/09 09:24 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Andrew]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
Andrew,

Your reply is indicative of psychological stability. Scientfic paradigms will inevitably continue to shift to encompass some of "the unexplained" and to produce more questions. But in practical terms, you will no doubt make a living by entertaining the more gullible who thirst for that myth called "objective truth".

TT,

Our differences amount to your optimism versus my pessimism. I agree that "history" is selective, but I suggest to you that examples of uncoerced "selfless acts" (with no thought of fame, celestial reward, or conscience easing)are the rare exceptions which underscore the general rule that we naturally behave selfishly and parochially.

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#32578 - 11/07/09 04:35 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Finally, IMO, real conversation/dialogue seems to be taking place.

Will I offend anyone if I say: THANK GOD!!!!? laugh

Eccles, with all due respect, I'd like to add that--in partnership with the psychological and somatological legs--a pneumatological leg is essential if we are to have stability and balance in our lives.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#32579 - 11/07/09 05:46 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Tutor Turtle Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: eccles
Andrew,

Your reply is indicative of psychological stability. Scientfic paradigms will inevitably continue to shift to encompass some of "the unexplained" and to produce more questions. But in practical terms, you will no doubt make a living by entertaining the more gullible who thirst for that myth called "objective truth".

The nature of humanity being that it seeks material wealth, fame and fortune.... sick
Originally Posted By: eccles

TT,

Our differences amount to your optimism versus my pessimism. I agree that "history" is selective, but I suggest to you that examples of uncoerced "selfless acts" (with no thought of fame, celestial reward, or conscience easing)are the rare exceptions which underscore the general rule that we naturally behave selfishly and parochially.
What is natural about fear and delusion? frown
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#32580 - 11/07/09 08:33 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Tutor Turtle]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
Quote:
What is natural about fear and delusion?


I didn't mention these, but "fear" is naturally a "survival mechanism" (re adrenalin/flight or fight).

"Delusion" involves psychological investment in a mythical "objective reality" beyond that which we all use for everyday transactions. Such "objectivity" is based on "persistances" with respect to our life spans but these "persistances" are naturally but erroneously extrapolated to non-relative (dualistic) scenarios in which "things" are considered to exist independently of the observers who do the "thinging". (Those naive realists who advocate the "existence" of "unobserved trees falling in forests" are forgetting that they themselves are still doing the observing "in their mind's eye").

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#32582 - 11/08/09 04:54 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Tutor Turtle Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: eccles
Quote:
What is natural about fear and delusion?


I didn't mention these, but "fear" is naturally a "survival mechanism" (re adrenalin/flight or fight).

Employed in the majority of situations, not necessarily situations that are life threatening. This causes sickness and aging of the body. And tho you didn't mention fear outright, you do mention a belief that normal behavior is one of selfishness rather than selflessness. Such behavior is only driven by psychosis which has fear as the root of emotions and belief. Fear of lack, loss of control, self worth issues, based on levels of comparison etc. You call this normal, I say the human condition which is normal is based on love and compassion, and compassion is only normal when it is fueled by wisdom rather than emotional attachments.
Originally Posted By: eccles

"Delusion" involves psychological investment in a mythical "objective reality" beyond that which we all use for everyday transactions.

What you call mythical in reference to the comparative psychosis which you call normal, is only mythical because you believe Love is outside of the normal human behavior.
Originally Posted By: eccles
Such "objectivity" is based on "persistances" with respect to our life spans but these "persistances" are naturally but erroneously extrapolated to non-relative (dualistic) scenarios in which "things" are considered to exist independently of the observers who do the "thinging". (Those naive realists who advocate the "existence" of "unobserved trees falling in forests" are forgetting that they themselves are still doing the observing "in their mind's eye").

The minds eye is often linked to a greater truth than the psychosis of delusion and fear which some would rather call truth over reality.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#32583 - 11/08/09 06:03 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Tutor Turtle]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
The idea that the universe can be viewed as the compound
of two basic orders, the implicate and the explicate, can be
found in many other traditions.
The Tibetan Buddhists call these two aspects the void and
nonvoid. The nonvoid is the reality of visible objects. The
void, like the implicate order, is the birthplace of all things
in the universe, . . .
. . . only the void is real and all forms in the objective world
are illusory, . . . .
The Hindus call the implicate level of reality Brahman.
Brahman is formless but is the birthplace of all forms in
visible reality, which appear out of it and then enfold back
into it in endless flux.
. . . consciousness is not only a subtler form of matter,
but it is more fundamental than matter, and in the Hindu cosmology it is matter that has emerged from consciousness,
and not the other way around. Or as the Vedas put it, the
physical world is brought into being through both the
‘ veiling’ and ‘ projecting’ powers of consciousness.
. . . the material universe is only a second- generation
reality, a creation of veiled consciousness, the Hindus
say that it is transitory and unreal, or maya.
. . .
This same concept can be found in Judaic thought.
. . . . in shamanistic thinking . . . . . .
. . . . . .
Like Bohm, who says that consciousness always has its
source in the implicate, the aborigines believe that the
true source of the mind is in the transcendent reality of
the dreamtime. Normal people do not realize this and
believe that their consciousness is in their bodies.
. . . . .
The Dogan people of the Sudan also believe that the
physical world is the product of a deeper and more
fundamental level of reality . . . . . .
===
/ The Holographic Universe.
Part 3 / 9. Pages 286 – 289.
By Michael Talbot. /
==================== . . .

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#32584 - 11/08/09 11:20 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Book / The Holographic Universe.
Part 3 / 9. Pages 287 – 289.
By Michael Talbot. /
==================== . . .
My questions after reading this book.

Is it possible that Physics confirmed and proved the
Religion philosophy of life ?
How is it possible to understand the Religion philosophy
of life from modern Physics view?
#
My opinion.
Fact.
The detected material mass of the matter in the
Universe is so small (the average density of all
substance in the Universe is approximately
p=10^-30 g/sm^3) that it cannot ‘close’ the
Universe into sphere and therefore our Universe
as whole is ‘open’, Endless Void / Nothingness /
Vacuum : T=0K.
Quantum Physics says the Vacuum is the birthplace
of all ‘ virtual’ particles . Nobody knows what there are,
but ‘the virtual particles’ change the Vacuum in a
local places and create Nonvoid / Material / Gravity
World with stars, planets and all another objects and
subjects in the Universe.
=== .
Without Eternal/ Infinite Void / Vacuum physics makes no sense.
But . . . . . . .
" The problem of the exact description of vacuum,
in my opinion, is the basic problem now before physics.
Really, if you can’t correctly describe the vacuum,
how it is possible to expect a correct description
of something more complex? "
/ Paul Dirac ./
==========.
Best wishes.
Israel Sadovnik. / Socratus.
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=23624&st=15
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2547&st=105
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2548
================== . .

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#32603 - 11/11/09 11:55 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
James S Saint Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/09/09
Posts: 6
Originally Posted By: socratus
Where and Who is God ?

By idea the God ( HE / SHE / IT ) must be :
1.
Something Infinity Absolute it means to be in every place

Logic. The word came from the concept of a "log" being firm and immutable.
Originally Posted By: socratus
2.
And something Absolute Concrete/ Limited it means
to be exactly in the concrete place.

Logic. It is literally everywhere and within all things and reigns over all existence.

Originally Posted By: socratus
Question:
Can God create our World without physics laws and formulas ?
The answer is: No !

God (i.e. Logic) created those "laws of physics" that man merely discovers and attempts to understand.

Originally Posted By: socratus
Question:
Have physicists found these two Absolute parameters
in the Universe ?
My answer is: Yes !

Yet still do not understand them. There are "higher" absolute "parameters" that can be known without the slightest empirical evidence.
Originally Posted By: socratus
One Infinity Absolute Parameter is Vacuum: T=0K.
Second Absolute Concrete/ Limited Parameter is speed of
Quantum of Light in Vacuum: c=1.

A true absolute void of nothingness, a true vacuum, cannot and never has existed. This is logically provable.

The speed of light can be logically derived void of any empirical evidence - once God is understood.

There are still far greater absolutes than those to understand.

Originally Posted By: socratus
Using these two Absolute Parameters I explain
the creation of the Universe step by step.
== .

Do tell. Although I suspect by what you have said here, that you are just beginning.

What is the fundamental logic of the impossibility of indifference? Within that question and answer, you discover God and the Creator of all things.


Edited by James S Saint (11/11/09 11:58 AM)

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#32604 - 11/11/09 04:44 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: James S Saint]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
Quote:
Logic. The word came from the concept of a "log" being firm and immutable.
laugh

...and you expect to be taken seriously after that ?

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#32606 - 11/11/09 05:09 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
James S Saint Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/09/09
Posts: 6
What some people take seriously or not holds absolutely no interest to me.

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#32607 - 11/11/09 05:51 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: James S Saint]
Tutor Turtle Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: James S Saint
What some people take seriously or not holds absolutely no interest to me.

If that were absolutely true you wouldn't be engaging in any conversation, other than in private with yourself.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#32608 - 11/11/09 07:29 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Tutor Turtle]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
....which raises the interesting question (following Dennett) as to whether all "selves" are a function of "dialogue"... internal dialogue being the exchanges between "committee members" we erroneously ignore when we assume "self" is unified (following Gurdjieff).

...but we digress from the "God debate" unless we extrapolate that all concepts, whether they be "selves" "gods" or "rocks" are simply linguistic (and subsequently cognitive) evocations i.e nodes within a shifting social reality.

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#32609 - 11/12/09 04:18 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
eccls-- I can't help but think that what everyone is saying (with lots and lots of words) is this---

---God exists for an individual if they believe any of the possible manifestations as truth. God is a human construct of faith and belief. Once that is accepted it is possible to prove that god exists, because the proof will follow the belief, not the other way round.

The holy stories, writings, various dogmas and forms of worship are all add-ons invented by believers and, in many cases are strictly controlled by the senior officials of the various forms of the varied religions. As such they are not an essential part of belief in divinity, and are merely the social trappings of religion.

It all comes down to personal belief. An atheist will not believe the proof because to him/her it is proof of nothing, as there is no belief to start with. A believer believes the proof because it confirms beliefs already held.

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#32613 - 11/12/09 06:40 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Ellis]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
I agree with you with a slight shift of focus. The later Heidegger came out with the statement that "Language speaks the Man" implying that socialization via linguistic segmentation of "the world" is prior to "thought" (This is also known as the strong form of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis). It follows that all "meanings" are socially underpinned including that of words like "belief" and "truth".

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#32615 - 11/12/09 11:37 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Different points of view.
1.
In Physics we trust. / Tarun Biswas /
and plus millions of other believers .
2.
Science is not always as objective as we would like to believe.
/ Michael Talbot. / and plus few others.
3.
Religion or Physics ? Faith or Knowledge ?
/ some doubtful people. /
4.
Science and religion in tandem can become a great force
to liberate the mind and help the humans to a fuller and better
understanding of reality.
/ G. S. Sidhu / and plus some individuals .
===== .
P.S.
In Physics we trust. Is it correct ?
Yes, it is logically correct. Why ?
Because only Physics can logically explain us
the Ultimate Nature of Reality.

Israel Socratus.
===========================

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#32617 - 11/12/09 03:25 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
Quote:
In Physics we trust. Is it correct ?
Yes, it is logically correct. Why ?
Because only Physics can logically explain us
the Ultimate Nature of Reality.


Wrong !

There is no way that Physics, or anything else for that matter, can logically lay claim to ultimate "reality", because of Godel's incompleteness theorem.
The fact that we "trust" physics is based on pragmatic success in prediction and control, not the ontological status of its concepts.

All claim's about "reality" (ultimate or otherwise) are metaphysical, and their coherence may require metalogic. For an understanding of this fundamental point I suggest those interested read Piaget's "genetic epistemology", which takes as axiomatic the fact that "logic" is derived from "cognition" and has no independent epistemological status.

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#32624 - 11/13/09 06:37 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Doug.E.Barr wrote:

Physics will answer the last "how?" That you can trust.
Physics will not answer "the last why ".
You will have to find something else to trust.
/ So far only Doug. E. Barr /

Socratus.
From 'how' to 'why' is one step.

Doug.E.Barr wrote:

You can have one foot in "why" the other in "how" but
not at the same time. When you take your last step in "how"
you will be standing in "why" on one foot with no place to go.

Socratus.
For me your explanation is sound like one problem in the Physics:
the problem of particle’s dualism. Physicists know what particle
is and what electromagnetic wave is but how is possible to unit
them together they don’t know.

But "why" and "how" must have some connection.
If we take ‘how’ as a physics and ‘why’ as a religion and
when we ask question : Religion or Physics ?
Faith or Knowledge ? it seems like they different parts of knowledge.
But I think that we cannot ask:
« the reason or the consequence ? » because must be a connection
between them. The same connection must be between
Religion and Physics, Faith and Knowledge.

As Albert Einstein said:
All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree.
=== .

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