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#32632 - 11/14/09 12:41 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: eccles]
Ellis Offline
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Rev- You often used to challenge this atheist on lack of belief in god, as you asserted that belief is inate and necessary in us all. Your point of view used to imply that I 'believed' in atheism and we had long chats about the fact that atheists do not believe in atheism. There is no atheistic faith requiring dogma, worshippers or profession of belief by its adherents. It is a simple lack of belief that makes an atheist.

I have noticed a change in your arguments now. However you persist in the view that belief is an inherent part of humanity. You, yourself, have a strong and sustained belief in your personal idea of god, but that does not mean others need or desire that too. Now you seem to be attempting to use one narrow, personally chosen branch of psychology to back up your point of view. I wonder how Jung would appreciate this interpretation of his theories?

And, to clarify earlier musings I made on the possibility of conscious enjoyment of a pleasurable after-life, I think that the old saying- "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride"- sums it up. Our imagination can take us anywhere, but wishes are not reality. Thus I do not believe in all the creations of my fairly active imagination!

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#32633 - 11/14/09 08:03 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ellis
... I wonder how Jung would appreciate this interpretation of his theories?...


Tonight, I will dream on it, and ask him! smile laugh

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#32634 - 11/14/09 05:53 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Originally Posted By: Ellis
... I wonder how Jung would appreciate this interpretation of his theories?...


Tonight, I will dream on it, and ask him! smile laugh


Translation:

"As soon as I can get in touch with my belief and make sense of it again, I can give you a another come back to cover my butt."
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#32635 - 11/15/09 12:04 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Ellis, now that I have time, please allow me to deconstruct, if I can, your recent communication:

[Deconstruction is the name which was given by French philosopher Jacques Derrida to an approach (whether in philosophy, literary analysis, or in other fields) which rigorously pursues the meaning of a text to the point of undoing the oppositions on which it is apparently founded, and to the point of showing that those foundations are irreducibly complex, unstable or impossible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deconstruction ]
You write as follows:
Originally Posted By: Ellis
Rev-You often used to challenge this atheist on lack of belief in god, as you asserted that belief is innate and necessary in us all.


Ellis, may I remind you: You are the one who says that you lack belief in ... you name it.

If you feel that this is the best way for you to go, now, or into the future, which we are all destined to face, this is YOUR free choice. Meanwhile, it is up to me to make the choice which I feel is best for me.

In addition, keep in mind: I abhor all forms of dogmatism aimed at suppressing free will.

IMO, human beings have the potential to be pneumatological beings, not just mental and physical beings dominated by instinctual drives. Sure we are free to allow it to be so, but we are free to choose otherwise.

Pneumatologically (that is, spiritually) speaking we need not be trapped in a script or by instinctual and unconscious drives. We can be more and more free to make any choice we care to make as to how we live now, and in the future.

Interestingly, Freudian analysts define God as "an object of worship", which they then go on to infer exists only in the imagination of some patients.

As a unitheist, for me, GOD is not an object of any kind.

Agreeing to disagree, agreeably, we can take it from there. OK? smile



Edited by Revlgking (11/15/09 05:00 AM)
Edit Reason: always helps communication

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#32637 - 11/15/09 06:08 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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'Agreeing to disagree, agreeably, we can take it from there. OK?'

I believe you are probably right on this Rev.

PS. I am well aware of deconstruction as a literary tool at least. I abhor it. Sometimes, for eg., a tree is just a tree.

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#32639 - 11/15/09 07:18 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
samwik Offline
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We realized somewhere along the way that our search for consistency - looking for the black-and-whites, trying to find some sort of clear answer - was inherently flawed; and that it is our inconsistent moments that brings about change, and that makes us human. -EMILY KUNSTLER

...speaking about making the film, William Kunstler: Disturbing the Universe.
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/11/12/william_kunstler_disturbing_the_universe
===

When we look at the mysteries of life - the great complexities - and vague trajectories of past and future, we must believe in some framework to understand what comes our way.

While whatever comes our way - reality - can be deconstructed and understood at the material level; no amount of understanding can reconstruct reality out of the material constituents. Constructing reality requires ongoing novelty, random creativity, and irrational luck.

So whether it is defined through the spirituality of some faith in whatever - or defined through whatever complexity can be revealed by science - it is still the same all-encompassing, big picture of reality that is being related to, regardless of whatever framework we believe in (as best we can).
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#32642 - 11/15/09 03:05 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: samwik]
Revlgking Offline
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Sam as I wrote elsewhere: Like it or not, life and consciousness will go on, eternally. We are stuck with being who we are. This is determined by the choices we make--not by some external gods, or god.

TO SIN, OR NOT TO SIN, THIS IS THE QUESTION.

The choice we have is this: We can choose to get things done and do the highest good for the highest number of people possible, or we choose to do evil.

To do so, in my opinion, we need three intrinsic factors available and ready to be utilized:

1. THE SOMA FACTOR--the physical and raw materials. You can't have a house without the materials to build it.

2. THE PSYCHE FACTOR--people with the skills needed to bring the materials together to design and build a house.

3. THE PNEUMA FACTOR--people with high moral, ethical standards and loving mental and spiritual attitudes.

Keep in mind that we must make the choice, yes or no.

We must not sit around and do nothing. We cannot remain neutral. Neutrality is the same as saying no. Saying no is the same as choosing hell on earth--one filled with physical mental and spiritual pain and suffering.

Meanwhile, most of us on this planet earth are living in a kind of self-imposed purgatory. No god put us here. We did it to ourselves; and many of us are still doing it.


Edited by Revlgking (11/15/09 08:52 PM)
Edit Reason: always good to do
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#32646 - 11/15/09 08:08 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Rev-- Define SIN (note capitals!)

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#32648 - 11/15/09 08:57 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Ellis, I sin when I consciously and knowingly choose to do that which is harmful and evil.

All sin is evil, but all evil--for example killing, animals or humans to save the lives of innocent others--is not sin. There are times when we have to choose the lesser of two evils.

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#32649 - 11/15/09 11:04 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Ellis, I sin when I consciously and knowingly choose to do that which is harmful and evil.

All sin is evil, but all evil--for example killing, animals or humans to save the lives of innocent others--is not sin. There are times when we have to choose the lesser of two evils.

Then to know you are not sinning would be to know the outcome of your actions and that they are not in any way harmful. That is from the ego a relative and speculative game of projections and values. Otherwise sinning is from ignorance of action and outcome.

Just a thought, but the excuse of sacrifice that is for the benefit of others has been used more than once. The Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades come to mind, as well as the genocide that took place in Nazi Germany. According to those who were the ruling class making the determination, there was no sin, but rather Gods will taken into human hands, and that action was for the greater GOOD.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#32650 - 11/16/09 05:31 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Revlgking Offline
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Ellis, I should add: There are sins of omission, not just sins of commission.

When we choose to remain neutral and refuse to do the good we know we ought to do--our sins of omission--perhaps we do far more harm than we can imagine.

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#32651 - 11/16/09 05:46 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Actually I agree with you Rev. Sin has to be a conscious choice, and of course omission is as much of a choice as commission.

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#32656 - 11/16/09 05:01 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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SIN IS TOO IMPORTANT A SOCIAL ISSUE TO BE LEFT TO THE RELIGIONS
===================
It is not known who first said: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing." There is no evidence of it, but it is often attributed to Edumund Burke.

Regardless, his contribution to social justice is well worth knowing about. Had his advice been heeded, perhaps the whole of North America, today, would be a constitutional monarchy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Burke
========================================
MORE ON SIN
Evil and sin thrives when good people do nothing, especially about their own sins of commission and omission.

SINS OF COMMISSION
When we deliberately commit sins which result in evil, or harm, being done to other persons, or to society in general, it follows that we can be charged and judged on the basis of the evidence of others.

SINS OF OMISSION
However, the sin of omission--the failure to do the good that we ought to do--is a far more complex matter. When we commit sins of omission, we may be aware of it immediately. For example, when we see a crime in the making and choose not to report what we saw.

But sometimes we may only become aware of it later, when we realize that we are deliberately choosing not to get involved.

For example, you have a suspicion that certain children, seniors, animals, whatever, on the street are being abused and yet you choose to look the other way. Later, when you hear arrests have been made and serious charges of assault, even murder, are laid. We are not civilly or criminally responsible, but most of us would feel we had been sinful. As basically good people we know we ought not to bury our heads in the sand.

Meanwhile, we need to be made aware that not all sins of omission are without real consequences.

Married people with children, people with socially responsible jobs, civil servants, soldiers and the like can be held responsible for failing to do their duty to one another and to society. If we choose to bury our heads in the sand, there are consequences.

Sinners of the world, UNITE! We have nothing to lose but our pains.


Edited by Revlgking (11/16/09 06:47 PM)

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#32657 - 11/16/09 06:11 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Sinners of the world, UNITE! We have nothing to lose but our pains.


Jn 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

The following is an indicator of What Sin was in terms of Jesus understanding, or where the word came from. The idea of being conscious is relative to Consciousness and how one defines consciousness. If it be the consciousness of the flesh or ego it would be consciousness born of sin. If it be consciousness of spirit (the inward man) which is beyond the flesh and does not die it is not of sin.

Romans 7:
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then, I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would, I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#32658 - 11/16/09 06:51 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ellis
Actually I agree with you Rev. Sin has to be a conscious choice, and of course omission is as much of a choice as commission.
Ellis, you left out the comma after "Rev."

Was that a sin of omission? Or commission? laugh
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#32659 - 11/17/09 02:47 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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I disagree that I needed a comma. I put a full stop as there was a complete change of subject and I wished to emphasise the truly amazing, (necessary comma) unique fact that I AGREE with you on something--- and there you are nit-picking!!!

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#32668 - 11/17/09 07:11 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Ellis, actually I was making a joke! smile

BTW, years ago--There was a well-known RC Cardinal, in the Philippines--either dead or retired by now--by the name of Cardinal Sin.
=============
Meanwhile, thanks for seeing the points I am trying to make about the importance of understanding the role of sin in our lives.

On more than one occasion--such an occasion happened just in the last couple of weeks--I have found that helping people deal with the sin going on in their lives did help promote personal health and restore broke family relationships.

The occasion mentioned above: The lady who came to see me, having already suffered breast cancer, was told, a few weeks ago that the cancer had spread to her lungs (a rather large sized tumor)--she was also an addicted smoker--and that she needed major surgery, soon. The prognosis was for a long recovery period, if she was lucky, gave up smoking, and if it had not spread to the other lung, which he feared.

Long story short: In the presence of my wife, a friend of hers, I gave her one hour of pneumatherapy--a spiritually-based form of hypnosis.

She was able to quit smoking, immediately, without withdrawal problems.

When, in preparation for the surgery, the doctor examined her a few days later, he found the tumor had shrunk, dramatically.

"I can removed it without major surgery" he said.

She was home from hospital in five days. My wife and I visited her shortly after that. She then began opening up he feeling to her daughter.

Today, her daughter--the one with whom there was conflict--took her out to dinner to celebrate her birthday. (Yes, I have permission to tell this story.)

I would hazard a guess, that the vast majority, if not all, of us human beings have, on more than one occasion, suffered pain, sorrow and the like because of our own sins and/or the sins of others.

PSYCHOLOGY, RELIGION AND HEALING
The title of a book by the minister/psychologist, Dr. Leslie D. Weatherhead, which influenced my counseling and preaching.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_Weatherhead
--------------------------------
Statistics tell us that the vast percentage--some doctors put it as high as 75%--of what make us sick arises in our minds and hearts (spirits). Even a high percentage of those trained in medicine, psychology and psychiatry--witness the recent mass killing by a psychiatrist in Fort Hood, in the USA--are not immune from what I call pneuma-psychosomatic conditions.
My basic undergraduate major happens to be in psychology/philosophy.

WHATEVER BECAME OF SIN?
-----------------------
Is the title of a book by the great psychiatrist--who was also active in his church as an elder--Dr. Karl Menninger.

He, his father and his brother founded a mental health clinic--one with a world-wide reputation, at Topeka, Kansas, in 1919.

I used his book and his ideas in many of my sermons on psychology, religion and healing. As I have said elsewhere, for over 30 years I did a series of lectures under the general heading of PNEUMATOLOGY--the study of all things spiritual. I also taught people how to use pneumatherapy on themselves.
-----------------------
The Menninger story is well covered at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Menninger

BTW, the term 'sin' is not one found exclusively in the Bible, or religion. It is in dictionaries on psychology. The one I use, published in 1952, is by the late Dr. James Drever. While he does regard it as a divine law.

He wrote that it is a "contravention of moral law". Which I assume is respected by all civil people. Agreed?


Edited by Revlgking (11/17/09 07:56 AM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#32674 - 11/17/09 05:15 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking


BTW, the term 'sin' is not one found exclusively in the Bible, or religion. It is in dictionaries on psychology. The one I use, published in 1952, is by the late Dr. James Drever. While he does regard it as a divine law.

He wrote that it is a "contravention of moral law". Which I assume is respected by all civil people. Agreed?

The term Sin in your 1952 dictionary is not without the influence of religious attachments to the meaning often linked to the Bible and its origins.
And, morality is subjective as is civility. Now if you want to get back to divine law or natural law which would precede and override any social or political influences, then Sin would be something that is subject to a constant. A law of nature that does not change with belief and interpretation as does religion. A law that is pertinent to the structure of the universe and does not change with personal beliefs and morality imagined by ego, is more akin to the Sin referred to by Jesus.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#32675 - 11/17/09 10:54 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Ellis Offline
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It seems to me, that if someone goes looking for sin it's probable that it will be found. Whilst there are some obvious, universally accepted sins, (eg mistreatment of children), sometimes a sin can be culturally specific.


Edited by Ellis (11/17/09 10:55 PM)
Edit Reason: odd grammar

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#32677 - 11/18/09 04:02 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ellis
It seems to me, that if someone goes looking for sin it's probable that it will be found. Whilst there are some obvious, universally accepted sins, (eg mistreatment of children), sometimes a sin can be culturally specific.
What you are speaking of social morality. This is often projected upon as relative to Sin, but it is not the same Sin used in the Bible.
There is an association to greater moral awareness in a spiritual sense, or the connectivity that comes with Unity. When one is united with the world of creation as the creator, what you project outside of you is felt inside when there is no separation. One acts in accord to the stream of creative life force supporting evolution rather than personal idealism and belief. Sometimes then it is necessary to sacrifice the illusions of the attachments to the body to gain the greater awareness of the spirit, which is why Jesus let Lazarus die before bringing him back to life and perfect health.

Jesus refers to Conscious development of the spiritual connection and levels of conscious awareness, Sin being ignorance.
Unity of awareness with the underlying source of all things, or Unity of heart, mind, body and soul with the absolute essence of nature. Nature being the dimensional fabric of relative levels of creation and life or the realm of natural law supporting a particular structure of cause and effect and the experience of it.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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