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 #32532 - 11/05/09 08:05 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? socratus Senior Member Registered: 06/20/08 Posts: 415 Originally Posted By: RevlgkingQuote:Fact and Speculation.1.Fact.The detected material mass of the matter in the Universe is so small(the average density of all substance in the Universe is approximatelyp=10^-30 g/sm^3) that it cannot ‘close’ the Universe into sphere andtherefore our Universe as whole is ‘open’, endless Vacuum.But what to do with the infinite Universe the physicists don't know.Socratus, how do you explain p=10^-30 g/sm^3) to grandmother? ========================== ==============================================The critical density of the mass in universe is: p=10^-29 g/sm^3 . == . If the density of the universe is greater than the critical density, then the strength of the gravitational force will stop the universe from expanding and the universe will collapse back on itself. Conversely, if the density of the universe is less than the critical density, the universe will continue to expand and the gravitational pull will not be enough to stop the universe from expanding. This scenario would result in the 'Big Freeze', where the universe cools as it expands and reaches a state of entropy.#Fact. The detected material mass of the matter in the Universe is so small(the average density of all substance in the Universe is approximately p=10^-30 g/sm^3 or p=10^-31 g/sm^3) that it cannot ‘close’ the Universe into sphere and therefore our Universe as whole is ‘open’, endless Vacuum.The Universe as whole is Vacuum a Kingdom of Coldness: T=0K.But what to do with the Infinite Kingdom of Coldness the physicists don't know. Here is hidden our problem. But without Aether / Vacuum Physics makes no sense. ========= .# Heat death of the universe.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Freezehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Crunchetc.== . Top
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 #32533 - 11/05/09 08:21 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? Tutor Turtle Megastar Registered: 06/19/08 Posts: 1249 Loc: Everywhere and nowhere Originally Posted By: ecclesIt is the childish nature of such "faith", epitomised by phrases like "God the Father", or "We are all God's children" which atheists find ridiculous. I disagree. Atheists are not so concerned with the language nor the belief that would seem to epitomize religious behavior, but more so with the idea of God when religionists play upon the authority of the written word rather than direct experience. When someone says this is true because it is written here and we believe it means this.... It is the same common sense that drives one to personal discovery rather than to roll over and subscribe to an authority based on the democratic flow of the lemming mentality. God the Father, as described by Jesus was not a person, but rather the un-manifest principal which supports the manifest. The idea that we are all Gods Children testimony to the fact that all matter is supported, created, experienced thru natural law. The law of cause and effect, or the laws of creation. The principal of order rather than chaos as the foundation of the universe. _________________________ I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!! Top
 #32539 - 11/05/09 12:44 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? eccles Senior Member Registered: 04/17/09 Posts: 149 TTYour disagreement is noted. But atheists who concern themselves with "proof" and "evidence" are easy meat for believers who find "evidence" in "existence" itself. I raised the parent-child issue to illustrate the "security" function of religion. Atheists who simply define themselves as being without the need for such security myths have no need for futile discussion of the intricacies of "aspects of a deity". Top
 #32540 - 11/05/09 01:24 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? socratus Senior Member Registered: 06/20/08 Posts: 415 Mr. ‘FF ’ wrote:‘ There is only one place where "God" has been demonstrated, even proven to exist - in human brains.’=== .God and Consciousness. It seems you are right saying: ‘There is only one place where "God" has been demonstrated, even proven to exist - in human brains.’ Why? Because if God exist, HE /SHE/ IT must be in every place it means in human brains too. Question: is it possible to prove this ? I will try.Our brain works on dualistic basis: usually consciousness (logically) and rarely unconsciousness ( at first it seems illogically but at last it shows as very wise act) . In his book ‘ The Holographic Universe’ Michael Talbot on the page 160 explained this situation in such way: ‘ Contrary to what everyone knows it is so, it may not be the brain that produce consciousness, but rather consciousness that creates the appearance of the brain - . . . .’But as the ‘Bhagavad Gita’ says:Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be. / Chapter 9. Text 11./========== . .Best wishes. Israel Sadovnik. / Socratus.http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=23624&st=15http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2547&st=105http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2548================== . . Top
 #32545 - 11/05/09 04:25 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? Tutor Turtle Megastar Registered: 06/19/08 Posts: 1249 Loc: Everywhere and nowhere Originally Posted By: ecclesTTYour disagreement is noted. But atheists who concern themselves with "proof" and "evidence" are easy meat for believers who find "evidence" in "existence" itself. I raised the parent-child issue to illustrate the "security" function of religion. Atheists who simply define themselves as being without the need for such security myths have no need for futile discussion of the intricacies of "aspects of a deity". opinion noted. _________________________ I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!! Top
 #32546 - 11/05/09 07:31 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? eccles Senior Member Registered: 04/17/09 Posts: 149 Andrew,Has it occured to you that you might have exchanged the fruits of one "tree of gullibity" for those of a whole orchard of others ? i.e. Is there anything bar standard religion that you are NOT prepared to use for your prophecy of "a quantum leap in consciousness" ?In psychology there is what is known as a "schizophrenogenic family", i.e a social grouping whose communicative mode tends to precipitate schizophrenic symptoms in one or more of its members. I put it to you that your socialzation amongst Jehova's Witnesses could have been "bizarre-belief-ogenic". Or to put it more simply, you are looking for something to fill the gaps left, after your rejection of your first belief system. Top
 #32547 - 11/05/09 08:41 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? socratus Senior Member Registered: 06/20/08 Posts: 415 Science and religion in tandem can become a great forceto liberate the mind and help the humans to a fuller and betterunderstanding of reality. / Sikh Religion and Science by G. S. Sidhu M.A; FIL (London) / http://www.sikhroots.net/resources/Sikh_Religion%20&Science.pdf==================== Top
 #32548 - 11/05/09 08:50 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? Revlgking Megastar Registered: 01/17/07 Posts: 2311 Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ... Originally Posted By: ecclesSocratus,... phrases like "God the Father", or "We are all God's children" which atheists find ridiculous. Eccles, G0D just told me: "I find my atheist children very amusing, and often ridiculous. Just wait till Mother Mary gets home! She'll deal with them, for disobeying me! =========================E=MC2 + GOD [Creative agape/love in, through and around all that is.] Top
 #32549 - 11/05/09 10:38 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? Ellis Megastar Registered: 01/08/07 Posts: 1490 Loc: Australia eccles wrote"It is the childish nature of such "faith", epitomised by phrases like "God the Father", or "We are all God's children" which atheists find ridiculous".,,,and I think that this contribution (by socratus) could be added to that observation too......."---if God exist, HE /SHE/ IT must bein every place it means in human brains too."The human brain itself is merely a body part and in my post the phrase "human brains" was a metaphor for "the ideas of humans" which are, I am sure that you will agree are often far from godly. To make it even more clear for literalists-- "Human brain" in my original statement represents "human constructs/ideas", of which 'god' is an example. It is an abstract human concept and is differently interpreted by every person. Top
 #32550 - 11/05/09 10:41 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? Revlgking Megastar Registered: 01/17/07 Posts: 2311 Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ... Originally Posted By: socratusScience and religion in tandem can become a great forceto liberate the mind and help the humans to a fuller and betterunderstanding of reality.... Socratus, my sentiments, exactly!======================To Andrew--the latest member of this dynamic team in the process of becoming servants of the social good: What do you think of the suggestion by Socratus?BTW, I like your opening remarks, especially the way you gave us some background of who you are and why you got involved in NOT QUITE SCIENCE. Your positive mental attitude is quite refreshing, even though I may challenge you on some of your presumptions and ideas. I hope you do not mind a challenge, OK? Feel free to challenge me back, as long as you offer it in agape, which I do to you--if you know what I mean.Nameste--looking for GOD--interpret as you will--in all who read this post. _________________________ G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org Top
 #32551 - 11/06/09 06:49 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? eccles Senior Member Registered: 04/17/09 Posts: 149 To argue that "science" helps us understand "reality" assumes that "reality" has objective status. Socratus clearly holds that assumption with his emphasis on the word "fact". However, he should note that the word "fact" comes from the Latin facare "to make/do/construct" (as in the French faire). This point is illustrated by Thomas khun's analysis of "scientific progress" as a succession of social paradigms amongst those who call themselves "scientists". In such a view, "objectivity" amounts to "temporary social agreement".In so far that "science" allows humans to predict and control their lives to a limited extent, and "religion" fills the "control gaps", we can postulate the possibility of "social dancing" between the two. Whether we see such dance dates leading to a fruitful "marriage" requires pretty strong rose coloured spectacles. Top
 #32552 - 11/06/09 07:13 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? Revlgking Megastar Registered: 01/17/07 Posts: 2311 Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ... Quote:Likewise, my understanding of 'god' or GoD' or GOD, has changed significantly. Both Einstein and Tesla understood that there is an aether, an electromagnetic energetic information medium present in all of space, whether a vacuum or atmospheric in nature. Some call it 'zero point'. Certain gifted individuals throughout history, such as Edgar Cayce the sleeping prophet, were able to 'access' this medium in stored information and make beneficial use of knowledge, wisdom and previously untapped free energy resources, knowledge of which has been too long suppressed. Andrew, you mention Edgar Cayce the sleeping prophet. My daughter, Catherine, has this very useful gift. Her ability to go into deep trance helped save her life. It also helped her find her life's career as an artist, and drugless therapist, in partnership with a fellow artist, Wayne. Here is a sample of their living work of art in progress: It is at Freedom Cove, Near Tofino, BC.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDqbfiejLdMMany times, free of charge, she has used her gift to help others. Eccles, it seems to be a fact that healthy religion--that is, the open, inclusive and non-doctrinaire kind, and in the philosophical sense of the word--can live in harmony and in creative partnership with the sciences and the arts.BTW, Eccles, I assume you are into science of some sort, right? I also assume you are not one those who believes that all the sciences--or for that matter, all the arts--in all applications, always take the high moral ground. Agreed?I always ask those who make such a claim: Tell me about the scientists who, for centuries have given themselves in the service of cruel and psychopathic tyrants (for example, Nero, Henry VIII, Napoleon, Hitler and his Nazism, Stalin, several popes and leaders of Islam, etc). Dare I say: not even all democratic republics have been without some guilt. And look at the way the arts, including the media and sports--all have been used by the Nazis, and the Communists, etc. Tyrants have always used everything in their control to impose their will to power. And let us not forget the powerful tool we call religion. Am I out order to suggest that Sick sciences and sick arts are no more to be desired than sick religions? And, it seems to me, that one of the sure signs of disease is when--instead of finding ways to collaborate--all they do is attack one another. Dawkins, Hitchins et al, take note.In the hands of powerful fools, all things, including good things, including spirituality, are nothing but tools of destruction. Edited by Revlgking (11/06/09 08:20 AM)Edit Reason: always useful _________________________ G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org Top
 #32554 - 11/06/09 10:57 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? socratus Senior Member Registered: 06/20/08 Posts: 415 Physics and Anomalies. http://www.anomalytv.com/site/category/telekinesis/???============ Top
 #32557 - 11/06/09 12:49 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? eccles Senior Member Registered: 04/17/09 Posts: 149 Given the history of humanity we have absolutely no reason to be optimistic about "beneficient progress". Most technologies, including medicine, arise from military or economic competition, and great conflicts continue to loom in terms of use of the planet's resources. Such philosophical/spiritual speculations in which we are engaged here may be no more than a mental luxury of "Westerners" who "forget" they utilise twenty five times per capita of resources than the poorest countries.In the light of the above, Dawkins (et al) may ultimately make more sense than some of us might care to admit. Top
 #32558 - 11/06/09 03:14 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? TheFallibleFiend Megastar Registered: 06/08/05 Posts: 1940 Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp... Socratus,This does not seem to be a very well-controlled experiment. Uri Geller performs much more impressive tricks, but that's what he's doing - tricks. Top
 #32559 - 11/06/09 06:47 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? Tutor Turtle Megastar Registered: 06/19/08 Posts: 1249 Loc: Everywhere and nowhere Originally Posted By: ecclesGiven the history of humanity we have absolutely no reason to be optimistic about "beneficient progress".So I take it you base your personal choices on historical references which you give validity to, as the meaning of life...Originally Posted By: ecclesMost technologies, including medicine, arise from military or economic competition, and great conflicts continue to loom in terms of use of the planet's resources.You're saying mankind has no inherent nature to progress but rather to succeed, in an economic evironment.Originally Posted By: eccles Such philosophical/spiritual speculations in which we are engaged here may be no more than a mental luxury of "Westerners" who "forget" they utilise twenty five times per capita of resources than the poorest countries. Mankind is without any properties that might set the species apart from herd animals. Intelligence is not only a luxury but wasted in inefficiency and blindness to any awareness that there is anything other than our own personal needs and desires...???? Originally Posted By: ecclesIn the light of the above, Dawkins (et al) may ultimately make more sense than some of us might care to admit. I suppose if you believe the earth is flat and you could sail over the edge of the earth into oblivion, your ability to comprehend life would be limited to the things you believe are real. _________________________ I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!! Top
 #32561 - 11/06/09 07:41 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? eccles Senior Member Registered: 04/17/09 Posts: 149 TTI am saying that contemplating "Gods" or "meanings of life" is the price we pay as a species for possessing internalized planning skills which anticipate our own mortality. Why price ?...because such mental meanderings are at best futile, and at worst pernicious, as history continues to demonstrate. Top
 #32564 - 11/07/09 01:00 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? Zephir Superstar Registered: 07/01/08 Posts: 498 In AWT Universe appears like being composed of nested density fluctuations of matter, similar to fractal foam. This geometry isn't ad-hoced, but it follows from principles of probability: every object in Universe is composed of many others smaller ones, which can be interpreted like density fluctuations of particle gas, i.e. Aether. The extrapolation of this chaotic field appears like omnipresent omnipotent intelligence, which is similar to God archetype in many aspects.For example, in AWT event horizon of black holes is exaggerated example of gravitational lensing, which leads to the total reflection phenomena. During travel into black hole we could see (providing we could survive such travel without evaporation), the event horizon is opening gradually and at the certain moment it would disappear under formation of another event horizon behind our back. The space-time inhomogeneities would create another black holes around a sky - so we could see, the former Universe generation is formed by black hole as well, the inner surface of which is behaving like one-way mirror, reflecting blue color preferably. This brings a hell and heaven archetype, as the outer surface of black hole resembles an attracting hole of the hell, glowing in dark red via Hawking mechanism - while the same artifact from inside would appear like reflecting and repulsive bladachino tabernacle resembling the mirror-like silver sky with bluish cloud undulating majestically, i.e. a heavens. In Genesis formation of life occurred in six steps, non-uniformly distributed in space-time scale, but equidistantly separated in entropy density scale ("days"). The first stage was a formation of space and time ("heavens and the earth") inside of graviton condensate ("darkness over the deep and God's breath (Aether) hovering over the waters" (waves?)). Gravitons are ambivalent particles, serving both like boson, both like fermions due the supersymmetry. During Big Bang event ("let there be light") phase transition of space-time has occurred, followed by separation of first generation of bosons, i.e. photons ("God separated the light from the darkness") in process of so called inflation, which resulted into condensation of black hole dome, forming observable generation of Universe ("let there be a dome in the midst of the waters"), i.e. the vacuum formed by interior of black holes in particular ("God called the dome Sky"). Top
 #32566 - 11/07/09 01:17 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? Tutor Turtle Megastar Registered: 06/19/08 Posts: 1249 Loc: Everywhere and nowhere Originally Posted By: ecclesTTI am saying that contemplating "Gods" or "meanings of life" is the price we pay as a species for possessing internalized planning skills which anticipate our own mortality. Why price ?...because such mental meanderings are at best futile, and at worst pernicious, as history continues to demonstrate. I don't deny your history, just that it isn't the only history, nor are your assumptions reflective of true human potential. _________________________ I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!! Top
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