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#32436 - 10/28/09 09:37 AM Where and Who is God ?
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Where and Who is God ?

By idea the God ( HE / SHE / IT ) must be :
1.
Something Infinity Absolute it means to be in every place
2.
And something Absolute Concrete/ Limited it means
to be exactly in the concrete place.

Question:
Can God create our World without physics laws and formulas ?
The answer is: No !
Question:
Have physicists found these two Absolute parameters
in the Universe ?
My answer is: Yes !
One Infinity Absolute Parameter is Vacuum: T=0K.
Second Absolute Concrete/ Limited Parameter is speed of
Quantum of Light in Vacuum: c=1.

Using these two Absolute Parameters I explain
the creation of the Universe step by step.
== .
Thomas Jefferson wrote in the letter to Joseph Milligan, April 6, 1816
/ ...the more a subject is understood,
the more briefly it may be explained. /

Einstein said:
/ You do not really understand something unless
you can explain it to your grandmother. /

I think everybody can understand my theory.
==== .
Best wishes.
Israel Sadovnik. / Socratus.

http://www.worldnpa.org/php2/index.php?tab0=Scientists&tab1=Display&id=1372
===================== . .

Top
.
#32441 - 10/29/09 02:27 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia

Einstein said:
"You do not really understand something unless
you can explain it to your grandmother."

----What a patronising old git he was!

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#32442 - 10/29/09 06:53 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: socratus
Where and Who is God ?

By idea the God ( HE / SHE / IT ) must be :
1.
Something Infinity Absolute it means to be in every place...
http://www.worldnpa.org/php2/index.php?tab0=Scientists&tab1=Display&id=1372
===================== . .

For me?

G0D=all that is good, orderly and desirable.

What do I do with evil?
I see it as chaos=good in the process of becoming order--good in the making.

Formally, I use two acronyms to express my theory of god: GzeroD, that is, GOD in quantum,or micro realm,
And GOD, in the macro realm--as relative being.
=======================
ORDINARILY, I will write god. It is easier. He doesn't mind because he does not exist, or mind. He just is! laugh

To know physical existence is to know god in the physical format;
to know that I know, and want to know more, is to know god as a mental concept,
and to know who I am, is to know god as Being itself.

In this sense I am one with god and god is in and through me. Anyone, if one so chooses, is free not to choose to be in god.

The consequences? The only thing I can imagine is: painless non-existence.

Me? I prefer the challenge of existing, even if it is painful, now and then.
========================
E=MC2+GOD as agape/love
The Universe on a T-Shirt.


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#32444 - 10/29/09 11:28 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Science and Religion: Is there a conflict?
Or maybe:
Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
/ Albert Einstein. /
Or maybe:
All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree.
/ Albert Einstein. /
#
Science and Religion: Is there any conflict?
Or maybe there isn’t any conflict.
Religion or Physics ? Faith or Knowledge ?
Or maybe our stupidity asks these questions.
===== .
S.

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#32446 - 10/30/09 01:00 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
How does 'god' exist? By your belief. If you believe in the mystery that is god in any of his/her/its manifestatations, or believe states of deep communication and enlightenment with the supernatural realm (plus any other etcs) - then it all exists.

If you don't it doesn't.

Actually that is all there is to it!

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#32458 - 10/31/09 02:15 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Ellis]
Eduardo Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/10/06
Posts: 106
Loc: Guildford, UK
Originally Posted By: Ellis

Einstein said:
"You do not really understand something unless
you can explain it to your grandmother."

----What a patronising old git he was!



Perhaps, but only to his grandmother!
_________________________
Eduardo
Resistance is futile. Capacitance is efficacious.
There are 10 types of people in the world... Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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#32459 - 10/31/09 02:28 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Ellis]
Eduardo Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/10/06
Posts: 106
Loc: Guildford, UK
God CANNOT exist!

If god is omniscient then he knows all, by which rationale god can never change his mind, ergo god cannot think or feel.

Do you wish to be controlled by an unthinking, unfeeling force?

Oh wait, you are, gravity.

My mistake, god is gravity.

Heavy man, lol.
_________________________
Eduardo
Resistance is futile. Capacitance is efficacious.
There are 10 types of people in the world... Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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#32462 - 10/31/09 04:09 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: Ellis
How does 'god' exist? By your belief... If you don't it doesn't. Actually that is all there is to it!
I agree. However, for me, all real belief must express itself in action.

For example, I write posts to this thread. But until I hit the keys and send these electronic blips through cyberspace my faith, or belief--no matter how strong it is--is meaningless.

My daughter is a professional artist. She paints and carves. Now and then, as a amateur, I will do a painting or two.

Would our art mean anything to anyone if we just sat there and, with great faith and imagination, just stared at the canvas and the paints? Of course not!

BTW, IMO, hope and love, without action, are also meaningless. This is why I like to think of GOD as Goodness, Order and Design in action, and reality. I think of 'god' as self-evident Being of which I am a part, not any imaginary person-like being separate and apart from me, anything, or anyone.

I look upon faith, hope and love as triggers to action. James, the brother of Jesus, makes this the central theme of his famous letter (James 2).
I do not very often quote full text, but I like this modern version of the Bible:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%20%202&version=NLT
===============================
Faith without Good Deeds Is Dead
14 What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone? 15 Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing, 16 and you say, “Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well”—but then you don’t give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do?

17 So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.

18 Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” But I say, “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.”

19 You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God.[f] Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. 20 How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?



Edited by Revlgking (10/31/09 04:14 AM)

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#32472 - 10/31/09 04:12 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
My article / message ( book ) isn’t about faith.

I say about God’s existing using the Physics / Quantum
theory because the Old proofs about God / Religion
isn’t enough in our time.
==== .
Has God known the formula: E=Mc^2 ?
If God has known the formula why HE / SHE /IT
didn't write it in His Bible?
#
Can God be atheist, governed by scientific laws?
Have physicists found the God?
I think, Yes. They have.
=========..
The people created a God.
No one knows what the external characteristics
of this God are, a God who made himself known
with the name " I am who I am ".
Is it enough for us in the XXIc ?
Why didn’t the formula E=Mc^2 write in the Bible?
===============. .
Each religion uses a system of symbols
(images, metaphors, ancient myths and legends ,
beautiful stories) to explain its truth.
But Bernard Shaw wisely remarked :
“ There is only one religion,
although there are a hundred versions of it.”
It means that the source of all religion is one.
And I try to prove this idea with the formulas and laws of
physics. I don’t invent new formulas. I use simple formulas
which ,maybe, every man knows from school.
Is it possible? Is it enough?
Yes. Because the evolution goes from simple to the complex.
So, in the beginning we can use simple formulas and laws.
For this purpose I explain what the first law of Universe is,
and second law is and ...........etc.
Step by step I create a logical system of the Universe.
=== .
Can God be atheist, governed by scientific laws?
I think: Yes, of course.
Why?
Because if God exists, he would necessarily to work
in an Absolute Reference Frame and have set of physical
and mathematical laws to create everything in the Universe.
And we can find and understand this Absolute God’s House
and we can find and understand Cod’s Laws of the Nature.
============= . .
If I were God, I would give chance to Human
to understand who I am by analyzing the physical
formulas, equations and laws. Because to create Everything
I need them. So, logically, catching the thread of the physics
Human can understand Me and My Work.
============== .
Of course, it is only my opinion.

Best wishes.
Israel Sadovnik. Socratus.

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#32479 - 11/01/09 12:45 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Socratus wrote:
"Can God be atheist, governed by scientific laws?
Have physicists found the God?
I think, Yes. They have.
=========..
The people created a God."

That is what I mean by 'belief' creating that which is described as god.

And again:
"If I were God, I would give chance to Human
to understand who I am by analyzing the physical
formulas, equations and laws. Because to create Everything
I need them. So, logically, catching the thread of the physics
Human can understand Me and My Work."

Many people would find this "thread of physics" would help them to find 'god'. Others find 'god' in music, art or the actions of others. The sweeping grandeur of Nature, seascapes and sunsets inspire others to claim that the existence of of such things somehow prove that 'god' is real.

In fact none of these prove that 'god' exists-- They do however provide a basis for many people that such things (and there are numerous such triggers!) prove that their personal belief in the existence of their particular 'god-form' is a valid one.

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#32482 - 11/01/09 08:14 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Ellis]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
Discussions of "God" tend inevitably to end up as "word salad" because the key issue of what is meant by the term "existence" is rarely analysed.

An alternative to naive realism (objective existence) involves the non-duality of observer and observed. According to that position, "existence" always implies "relationship",and "believers" are simply those who define their "self concept" in a positive relationship with respect to "a God concept" whereas "atheists" do not. In this non-dualistic analysis concepts relace entities, and physicality is simply one possible mode of "relationship", which may or may not be evoked between concepts, two of which are "self" and "God". "Properties" are not aspects of "concepts" but expections of the nature of relationships between concepts.(Think Heisenberg !)

(Ellis might remember the Croc Dundee scenario at this point).

LATER EDIT:
Revlgking's attempt at a transcendent position...perhaps that "God" is synonymous with "relationship" or "the unity of dualities"... is merely a common expression of a psychological preference for closure of a potentional infinite regress. The ascription of "benificence" to such a closure is no doubt related to its womb-like security aspects.

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#32489 - 11/01/09 04:58 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Tutor Turtle Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: eccles

LATER EDIT:
Revlgking's attempt at a transcendent position...perhaps that "God" is synonymous with "relationship" or "the unity of dualities"... is merely a common expression of a psychological preference for closure of a potentional infinite regress. The ascription of "benificence" to such a closure is no doubt related to its womb-like security aspects.


I see it is an ongoing edit of his profile, with the need for validation. His definitions and symbolism changes as he incorporates more intellectual ideas of unity into his belief and opinion.
This is typical of the instability of belief, and the unconscious separation from the One principal that unifies all manifestations.

For example:
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

for me, all real belief must express itself in action.

G0D=all that is good, orderly and desirable.

What do I do with evil?
I see it as chaos=good in the process of becoming order--good in the making.


The duality of separation presents the ultimatum that God being Omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent has a quality that distances itself from that which is not God or of God quality. God is order but anything that is not orderly is not yet in order with God, but has the potential to become God, if it complies with the rules of order according to human belief and opinion.
A belief in a place, condition or experience that is without the God experience, or a condition where God is not.
His agreement with Ellis that God is a concept derived in human belief and imagination rather than a principle which underlies belief, and supports belief within the human condition, separates God from humanity by condition or preference in object subject determination, or within the limitation of human concepts based on opinion.

Originally Posted By: Revlgking

To know physical existence is to know god in the physical format;

God and or spirit which supports the physical format is multidimensional, as is the physical. If the physical is reduced to a single dimension in the separation of good and evil, God is removed from the physical thru belief and injected as a principal into the form or projection of opinion which meets that condition of personal belief and opinion.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

to know that I know, and want to know more, is to know god as a mental concept,
and to know who I am, is to know god as Being itself.

Here God is reduced to personality, identifying with belief and projection of belief, which divides one thing from another, maintaining separation of objects in manifestation thru personal perceptions and identification with the physical world. My God, your God, their God, Our God,... giving quality to that, which if were omnipresent, could only be experienced if it were labeled and isolated to the conditions of personal preference.
In other words a Jew could only see a Jewish God, A Christian could only see a Christian God and the Rev can only experience a God which meets the conditions set forth within his own beliefs.
Instead of One God being the God of both Order and Chaos it is only a God of order. This is what separates the Christian from the Jew, the Protestant from the Catholic and the believers from the non-believers.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

In this sense I am one with god and god is in and through me. Anyone, if one so chooses, is free not to choose to be in god.

In a sense means in belief.

In the reflection of certain conditions, being that they are orderly and good by definition, God is present in and thru ones actions. If they are not by definition able to meet the conditions of definition and belief, God is not in and thru ones self.
This means by not being orderly, one makes a choice to not be in God, or orderly and Good as defined by the priest.

This approach was the approach of the Pharisees in Jesus' time. They accused Jesus of being a false profit and without God as they knew God, because Jesus did not fit the description of order according to their beliefs and doctrines, and because everything he represented threatened their lifestyle.

It is also the approach of the Christians who killed so many during the Spanish Inquisition, who wished to maintain an order of hierarchy and an order of control over the people for the good of the Church.

It is also the approach of the delegates of the Christian Church toward the native peoples of the Americas when Europeans began their invasion of North America to bring Order to the New World.
In order to tame the savages they had to be re-educated in the ways of God and the order of progress and growth.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#32490 - 11/01/09 06:23 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Tutor Turtle]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
TT

The concept of "order" is closely allied to those of "closure" and "intelligibility".i.e. That which is intelligible is encompassed such that all events can be dealt with in an orderly manner. Therein lies the insurance policy called "faith",its particular cover being against Shakespeare's observation of "life as a tale told by an idiot ...etc".

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#32491 - 11/02/09 03:33 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Tutor Turtle Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: eccles
TT

The concept of "order" is closely allied to those of "closure" and "intelligibility".i.e. That which is intelligible is encompassed such that all events can be dealt with in an orderly manner. Therein lies the insurance policy called "faith",its particular cover being against Shakespeare's observation of "life as a tale told by an idiot ...etc".
Relative ideals are measured within the references to self identification, and the way intelligence defines itself, Yes.
It stands to reason that the projection of God as a construct will fit into relative idealism as the ego retains its identity in measure to the construct.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#32492 - 11/02/09 04:30 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Ellis, "Where and Who is God?" is not a question that, as unitheist, I would ever ask. It would be like asking: "Who or where is infinity and eternity?".

Like Carl Jung, I do not have faith in a god, I wallow in GOD--as I do in space--which interpenetrates every "string" vibrating in every atom of my being.

And, BTW, it was Macbeath, not Shakespeare, who said: "Tomorrow and tomorrow ... a tale told by and idiot, signifying nothing". I think Shakes was a reasonably-good Christian.

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#32493 - 11/02/09 05:09 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
I do not have faith in a god, I wallow in GOD.

And, BTW, it was Macbeath, not Shakespeare, who said: "Tomorrow and tomorrow ... a tale told by and idiot, signifying nothing". I think Shakes was a reasonably-good Christian.


Whether he was a good Christian is speculative. In Shakespeare's Macbeth, it is the internal tension and crumbling of Macbeth, entirely Shakespeare's inventions, that give the play such literary traction.
Similarly, the Good of Shakespeare's Christianity is in this case, an invention of the author of the post who speculates on the authority of the quote and wallows in personal opinion and belief.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#32494 - 11/02/09 05:26 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Ellis, "Where and Who is God?" is not a question that,
as unitheist, I would ever ask. It would be like asking:
"Who or where is infinity and eternity?".

=================
First.
What is Absolute Reference Frame ?
What is the Source of the Universe. / My interpretation./
=== .
What was before Vacuum or Gravity ?
Does Gravity exist in Vacuum or vice versa?
What is the First Law of the Universe: Vacuum or Gravity ?
In my opinion the Universe ( as a whole ) is Eternal and
Infinite Vacuum an Absolute Reference Frame .
Why ?
== .
Fact and Speculation.
1.
Fact.
The detected material mass of the matter in the Universe is so small
(the average density of all substance in the Universe is approximately
p=10^-30 g/sm^3) that it cannot ‘close’ the Universe into sphere and
therefore our Universe as whole is ‘open’, endless Vacuum.
But what to do with the infinite Universe the physicists don't know.
The concept of infinite/ eternal means nothing
to a scientists. They do not understand how they could
draw any real, concrete conclusions from this characteristic.
A notions of ‘more, less, equally, similar ’ could not
be conformed to a word infinity or eternity.
The Infinity / Eternity is something, that has no borders,
has no discontinuity; it could not be compared to anything.
Considering so, scientists came to conclusion that the
infinity/eternity defies to a physical and mathematical definition
and cannot be considered in real processes.
Therefore they have proclaimed the strict requirement
(on a level of censor of the law):
« If we want that the theory would be correct,
the infinity/eternity should be eliminated » .
Thus they direct all their mathematical abilities,
all intellectual energy to the elimination of infinity.
Therefore they invented an abstract ‘dark matter and dark energy’.
They say: ‘ 90% or more of the matter in the Universe is unseen.’
And nobody knows what it is.
2.
Speculation.
Unknown ‘dark matter ‘ it is matter which makes up the difference
between observed mass of a galaxies and calculated mass……
which….will …’close ‘ ….the Universe into sphere, as …….
as……the astrophysicists want.
Question:
How can the 99% of the Hidden ( dark ) matter in the Universe
create the 1% of the Visible matter ?
========================== . .
#
Now it is considered that Newton / Einstein's laws
of gravitation are basis of physics, the first laws of Universe.
But the detected material mass of the matter in the Universe
is so small that gravitation field, as whole, doesn't work
in the Universe.
So, the Newton / Einstein's laws of gravitation are correct only
in the small and local part of Universe and we cannot take them
as the first ones.
What can the first law of the Universe be?
All galaxies , all gravitation fields exist in Vacuum (T=0K).
Gravitational effects took place only in a small area of Infinite Vacuum.
It is impossible to use GRT to the Universe as a whole.
Vacuum is “ The first law of the Universe.”
The Physics is first of all Vacuum.
Without Eternal and Infinite Vacuum Physics makes no sense.
=== .
Best wishes.
Israel Sadovnik. / Socratus.
http://www.worldnpa.org/php2/index.php?tab0=Scientists&tab1=Display&id=1372
================== . .
#
Comment:
Socratus... the irony being, of course,
that there is no such thing as an absolute frame of reference.
/ dkt80 /
?????????????????
=========== .

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#32496 - 11/02/09 06:50 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
Quote:
I do not have faith in a god, I wallow in GOD


The "faith" is involved in use of the word "in" !

There used to be an advertising slogan which read "Get the strength of our Insurance Company around you".

In your rejection of "external gods" you are revising the tale of the Emporer's New Clothes by pointing out that the only "suit" anyone can "trust" is their "birthday suit". Your "faith" consists in continuing to think in terms of "suit" which implies "organization".

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#32500 - 11/02/09 04:59 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Samantha Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/02/09
Posts: 2
Dear Mr.Socratus,

YOU ARE STUPID! God cannot be athesist.Punch you in the face!.

Good day.

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#32501 - 11/02/09 04:59 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Samantha]
Samantha Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/02/09
Posts: 2
By the way it's my birthday. So i win. smile

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#32504 - 11/03/09 12:52 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Samantha]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Rev wrote:
"And, BTW, it was Macbeath, not Shakespeare,"

Although Macbeth was an historical figure it was in fact Shakespeare who composed the particular speech that is one of the most evocative he ever wrote. As to Shakespeare's religious beliefs-- there is some evidence that his family were Roman Catholic sympathisers, but W.S seems not to have shared that to any great degree. Don't forget that in those days religious deviance of any sort could see you publicly burned.

Also-- Faith and belief are what makes you so CERTAIN that your god envelopes you, surrounds you and is 'there' for you. So that is true for you. It is precisely that lack of faith and belief that ensures an atheist can state that there is no such thing as god (in any unimaginable or imaginable manifestation).

eccles is so right... 'The "faith" is involved in use of the word "in"!'

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#32505 - 11/03/09 02:54 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Ellis]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
Ellis,

For the purposes of debate, what the Rev calls "himself" knows that it acts as a microcosm of "God" hence it has no requirement for the word "faith".i.e. To that "self" has been revealed "the Truth".

The problem with that position is that it assumes that the integrity of such a "self" has persistence in the face of the common observation that self-integrity is illusory. (...consider, for example those characters to which we ascribe "ourself" who occupy our dreams...). It is my contention that it is the debate context, driven by the desire for security, which evokes such a "God-self" and that such debate continues internally within his "committee".

The Rev is well aware of the "committee nature of self" through his readings of Gurdjieff and may seek to ascribe "higher Self" to his "God-mode". But that claim would also involve much cosmological baggage which he may selectively avoid, or re-interpret with his pseudo-equations.

Outside the debate context, such a "God-self" is as ephemeral as a passing cloud, or as he might wish to put it, "a burst of sunlight", despite his efforts to perpetuate it through "God-like acts".

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#32506 - 11/03/09 05:49 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
eccles,

Would there not be need to have faith that he is part of the revealed truth that is god? And have faith that the truth of this god-like state thus revealed and the subsequent God-like actions are the result of the personal belief that is the result of discovering that they are god inspired in the first place? It's a very circular situation of the chicken and egg variety.

Surely there has to be an anchoring of faith or belief in something 'other' or the whole thing becomes an idea dreamed up on a sunny afternoon, and no different from the musings of a lazy atheist. Doesn't it?

Personally I congratulate him on his strong point of view, but I do feel that to deny it is a belief and requires faith to sustain it is disingenuous.

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#32507 - 11/03/09 06:57 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Ellis]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
Ellis,

Who is the "he" who needs a concept of "faith" ? Certainly not the "God-self" any more than we have "selves" which would use the word "faith" to describe our expectation that the sun will rise tomorrow. (compare with Incas sun-sacrifices etc). If we argue that we don't need "faith" because we have "evidence", the Rev will argue he also has "evidence" for his particular version of the "God concept".

The only "faith" that he may admit to is that "existence" has a "purpose", for the alternative cannot be contemplated. His choice perhaps to call all existence "God" effectively sidesteps the traditional "faith in the existence of God" debate for him.



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#32508 - 11/03/09 09:18 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Samantha]
Amaranth Rose II Offline

Superstar

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 962
Loc: Southeast Nebraska, USA
Samantha,
Please try to bring your posts to the level of at least an intelligent first grader. Calling people stupid and threatening violence violates the terms of use of this forum.

Amaranth
Moderator
_________________________
If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose


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#32509 - 11/03/09 02:21 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Amaranth Rose II]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Do you believe God create woman
from Adam’s rib using physical laws ?
========================================

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#32513 - 11/04/09 05:28 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
like millions before us when we could not explain what we saw,
we turned to the gods for the answers.
But Zeus never gave the answers, nor did Neptune or Ra.
No answers are given by the most modern one!
The answers come from mankind.
It is us and only us who can unravel this mystery.
With no help from any divinity.
It is this mystery of who we are and what we see around us,
that gives birth to gods.
If there is a string theory then we will find it.
But to suppose there is a single theory of everything,
seems like we are still much like the ancients.

Posted by " canadapiper"
===========================

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#32514 - 11/04/09 06:53 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: eccles
Ellis,

... His (LGKing's) choice perhaps to call all existence "God" effectively sidesteps the traditional "faith in the existence of God" debate for him.
Yes, it does! IMO, debating is a zero-sum game. I prefer to converse, or dialogue. Also, for me all Being, GzeroD/GOD, is an evolving, an eternal process of becoming. I find this idea truly amazing.

BTW, an atheist in another forum indicates--in a quote he uses as his signature--that for him, "death is the great hope"; or does he mean solution to all our suffering and pain. Interesting thought.

If I actually thought this to be reality, for me it would a far-more depressing idea of what 'hell' is than the traditional one. I am sure this kind of existential anxiety is what drives many people to suicide. After her third attempt, I once saved a woman's life-- when I convinced her: There is no evidence, no guarantee, that there will be death of conscious awareness when the body dies.

[Her words were: "To go on living with the fears I have would be hell. I must do something about overcoming them."
Using hypnosis, I helped her to do so.]

Of course, I do not accept death as a valid solution, but I can accept that some people do. Do any atheists here agree with this "solution'?
=======================
Talk about GOD as being totally inclusive! For Islam (the source of peace) 'Allah' is Arabic for the One (power), and you name it:
http://wahiduddin.net/words/wazifa.htm

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#32515 - 11/04/09 07:51 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
Unity is closure.
Closure gives security.
Faith is in security, the antithesis of insecurity.

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#32518 - 11/04/09 12:40 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Eccles, very interesting comment. Now spell out what you mean.
How secure do you feel about the soma, psyche and pneuma?
What do you think of the Islamic concept of 'Allah'?

BTW, we translate 'Allah' as 'God'; which I translate as GOD, and which I presume, by now, my fellow fellow posters understand is an acronym, not a noun. Check out http://www.unitheist.org

As I understand it, the major monotheistic religions--Judaism, Christianity, and Islam--began with the idea: We worship the one true and all-powerful god and we have the right to impose his will on the whole world. And, with the help of his righteous wrath, we will do so.

The unique message of Jesus was: "I do not agree with my religion, Judaism, and I want to reform it.

"When it comes to the doctrine of the messiahship, most of my fellow Jews--except for a few of the prophets--have it totally wrong. They want a righteous and conquering king to rule over them and all the world.

"My messianic belief is that we are all messiahs. We are here to give loving service even to one another, including the $#@%**#$ who, foolishly, choose to be the enemy."

In this sense Jesus was not a Christian.

Anyone. In what way did Jesus change the message of Jesus


Edited by Revlgking (11/04/09 01:22 PM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#32519 - 11/04/09 02:38 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
With respect, I don't wish to get involved in speculative aspects of "unity". All I would point out is that such a concept tends to rule out possibilities such that our "universe" could be merely an experiment in some petri dish of an alien life-form. In the mathematics of systems theory, an infinite regress of nested hierarchies is certainly viable. "Unity" forecloses on such mathematics and is therefore a psychologically functional and perhaps a palliative assumption about "reality".

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#32520 - 11/04/09 05:28 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Quote:
Fact and Speculation.
1.
Fact.
The detected material mass of the matter in the Universe is so small
(the average density of all substance in the Universe is approximately
p=10^-30 g/sm^3) that it cannot ‘close’ the Universe into sphere and
therefore our Universe as whole is ‘open’, endless Vacuum.
But what to do with the infinite Universe the physicists don't know.

Socratus, how do you explain p=10^-30 g/sm^3) to grandmother? smile
==========================
The Universe on a T-Shirt
E=MC2 + GOD--service-based as agape/love

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#32521 - 11/04/09 05:40 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Eccles, I showed your last post to a friend. His response: "Sounds rather pompous, to me. I don't think grandmother would get the point".

Perhaps both of us are too pompous. smile
=======================================
The Universe on a T-Shirt
E=MC2 + GOD--service-based agape/love

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#32522 - 11/04/09 05:43 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: Revlgking


As I understand it, the major monotheistic religions--Judaism, Christianity, and Islam--began with the idea: We worship the one true and all-powerful god and we have the right to impose his will on the whole world. And, with the help of his righteous wrath, we will do so.

This idea reduces the possibility of any subjective/Objective force being the underlying nature of spirituality as the foundation of life to a hierarchical belief system.
This implies that God was never known but simply fabricated. This would lessen your resolve to know God by your own belief that God was not known but designed by human idealists.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

The unique message of Jesus was: "I do not agree with my religion, Judaism, and I want to reform it.

Jesus said "I have a religion"?....

He never said "I disagree with scripture", and he never saw scripture as a religion, but as description of spiritual principal. He only disagreed with the egoic idealists, who without a direct experience of the Supreme Being would superimpose their beliefs into the idea of a first cause. He disagreed with fabrications of belief such as the belief that "the major monotheistic religions--Judaism, Christianity, and Islam--began with an idea rather than a direct experience
Without a direct experience of the supreme being one takes scripture (The writings of the enlightened, or those who have a direct experience of God) and reduce the words to idealistic projections based on a lack of experience.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

"When it comes to the doctrine of the messiahship, most of my fellow Jews--except for a few of the prophets--have it totally wrong. They want a righteous and conquering king to rule over them and all the world.

"My messianic belief is that we are all messiahs. We are here to give loving service even to one another, including the $#@%**#$ who, foolishly, choose to be the enemy."

Jesus never spoke of his experience and Union as a belief. That is possibly the only way a person who lacks an experience could put the words of Jesus into perspective. Without the direct experience of something, the only possible reason would be projected in theory according to how one personally derives their own faith, as a product of belief and projection of experiences based on belief.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

In this sense Jesus was not a Christian.

Anyone who establishes a permanent awareness of the Supreme being is Christ-ed. As it was stated in his dialogue as being One with the Father and witnessing the Father as the Father witnessed him, he was offering Truth to those who would seek to live a life based on the actual experience of God, rather than to give faith to projections and ideals based on the mind saturated in duality and the ego of personal beliefs.

One who does not experience God cannot find God in anything but an ideal. Therefore God lay in some far off future experience and in a Heaven that is not available until some projected afterlife. Jesus was very direct in unraveling scripture to those who had the ears to hear.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

Anyone. In what way did Jesus change the message of Jesus

Jesus message was unwavering and consistent throughout his life as a Teacher. It was only those who did not themselves have the direct experience of Union with God in every thought feeling and action, and in every experience of life, who projected limitation and belief into his teaching.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#32525 - 11/04/09 06:44 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
Quote:
Eccles, I showed your last post to a friend. His response: "Sounds rather pompous, to me. I don't think grandmother would get the point".


Perhaps neither your friend nor his grandmother is familiar with "systems theory". wink

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#32526 - 11/04/09 08:04 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Ellis]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
Socratus,

You started with two questions and then you attempted to answer a question without thinking it through.

You asked "Where and Who is God ?"

There is only one place where "God" has been demonstrated, even proven to exist - in human brains. Unlike "a chair" the effects of which we can experience directly, the inference of "God" as something more than a "concept" exists at the end of a long, evidence-free path of obscurantism, bloviating linguistic abuses, and general poor reasoning.

There is no evidence that God is a "who," but substantial evidence that God is a "what." It's an arrangement of electrochemical potentials and impulses in the Brain induced by poor reasoning and used to fill a void created by want - want of evidence, want of security, want of influence, want of recognition.

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#32527 - 11/05/09 12:11 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
FF wrote:
"There is only one place where "God" has been demonstrated, even proven to exist - in human brains."

I understand and agree with this point! It is personal belief that ensures the existence of god for the believer. It is not possible to prove there is a god because, as FF states, that is a personal conceptual construct. It is also not possible to prove that god does not exist, as proving an absent negative would be difficult- maybe impossible I should think. (Why do I feel that statement will be challenged by fervent mathematicians?)

All the preceding arguments make great reading, and this grandmother enjoyed them. Maybe some 25 year old males may find themselves in need of further explanation however!


Edited by Ellis (11/05/09 12:12 AM)
Edit Reason: can't spell!

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#32528 - 11/05/09 12:19 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Ellis]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
I think most scientists understand that science is not capable of addressing the existence or non-existence of God.

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#32529 - 11/05/09 05:35 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Ellis]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Originally Posted By: Ellis
FF wrote:
"There is only one place where "God" has been demonstrated,
even proven to exist - in human brains."

I understand and agree with this point!
It is personal belief that ensures the existence of god for the believer.
It is not possible to prove there is a god because, as FF states,
that is a personal conceptual construct.

==================
It seems you are right saying: ‘There is only one place
where "God" has been demonstrated, even proven
to exist - in human brains.’
Why? Because if God exist, HE /SHE/ IT must be
in every place it means in human brains too.
Question: is it possible to prove this ?
I will try.
Our brain works on dualistic basis: usually consciousness
(logically) and rarely unconsciousness ( at first it seems
illogically but at last it shows very wise) .
In his book ‘ The Holographic Universe’ Michael Talbot
on the page 160 explain this situation in such way:
‘ Contrary to what everyone knows it is so, it may not be
the brain that produce consciousness, but rather consciousness
that creates the appearance of the brain - . . . .’
But as the ‘Bhagavad Gita’ says:
Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form.
They do not know My transcendental nature and
My supreme dominion over all that be.
/ Chapter 9. Text 11./
========== . .

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#32530 - 11/05/09 07:06 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
Socratus,

The idea that "consciousness" is a priori to materiality was explored by David Bohm, the physicist. I expect Talbot cites his book on "Implicate Order". However to equate such "conciousness" with "God" is a secondary move which involves an additional aspect of "beneficient divinity" to what might otherwise be merely thought of as a "field effect". In that sense, the security aspects of such holistic consciousness are a matter of "faith" rather than rationality in the face of the actual sordid history of the activities of religious "believers", or the "indifference of nature" to suffering.

It is the childish nature of such "faith", epitomised by phrases like "God the Father", or "We are all God's children" which atheists find ridiculous.

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#32532 - 11/05/09 08:05 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Quote:
Fact and Speculation.
1.
Fact.
The detected material mass of the matter in the Universe is so small
(the average density of all substance in the Universe is approximately
p=10^-30 g/sm^3) that it cannot ‘close’ the Universe into sphere and
therefore our Universe as whole is ‘open’, endless Vacuum.
But what to do with the infinite Universe the physicists don't know.

Socratus, how do you explain p=10^-30 g/sm^3) to grandmother? smile
==========================

==============================================
The critical density of the mass in universe is: p=10^-29 g/sm^3 .
== .
If the density of the universe is greater than the critical density,
then the strength of the gravitational force will stop the universe
from expanding and the universe will collapse back on itself.

Conversely, if the density of the universe is less than the critical
density, the universe will continue to expand and the gravitational
pull will not be enough to stop the universe from expanding.
This scenario would result in the 'Big Freeze', where the universe
cools as it expands and reaches a state of entropy.
#
Fact.
The detected material mass of the matter in the Universe is so small
(the average density of all substance in the Universe is approximately
p=10^-30 g/sm^3 or p=10^-31 g/sm^3) that it cannot ‘close’ the
Universe into sphere and therefore our Universe as whole is ‘open’,
endless Vacuum.
The Universe as whole is Vacuum a Kingdom of Coldness: T=0K.
But what to do with the Infinite Kingdom of Coldness the physicists
don't know. Here is hidden our problem. But without Aether /
Vacuum Physics makes no sense.
========= .
#
Heat death of the universe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Freeze
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Crunch
etc.
== .

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#32533 - 11/05/09 08:21 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Tutor Turtle Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: eccles

It is the childish nature of such "faith", epitomised by phrases like "God the Father", or "We are all God's children" which atheists find ridiculous.

I disagree. Atheists are not so concerned with the language nor the belief that would seem to epitomize religious behavior, but more so with the idea of God when religionists play upon the authority of the written word rather than direct experience. When someone says this is true because it is written here and we believe it means this.... It is the same common sense that drives one to personal discovery rather than to roll over and subscribe to an authority based on the democratic flow of the lemming mentality.
God the Father, as described by Jesus was not a person, but rather the un-manifest principal which supports the manifest. The idea that we are all Gods Children testimony to the fact that all matter is supported, created, experienced thru natural law. The law of cause and effect, or the laws of creation. The principal of order rather than chaos as the foundation of the universe.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#32539 - 11/05/09 12:44 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Tutor Turtle]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
TT

Your disagreement is noted. But atheists who concern themselves with "proof" and "evidence" are easy meat for believers who find "evidence" in "existence" itself. I raised the parent-child issue to illustrate the "security" function of religion. Atheists who simply define themselves as being without the need for such security myths have no need for futile discussion of the intricacies of "aspects of a deity".

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#32540 - 11/05/09 01:24 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Mr. ‘FF ’ wrote:
‘ There is only one place where "God" has been
demonstrated, even proven to exist - in human brains.’
=== .
God and Consciousness.

It seems you are right saying: ‘There is only one place
where "God" has been demonstrated, even proven
to exist - in human brains.’
Why? Because if God exist, HE /SHE/ IT must be
in every place it means in human brains too.
Question: is it possible to prove this ?
I will try.
Our brain works on dualistic basis: usually consciousness
(logically) and rarely unconsciousness ( at first it seems
illogically but at last it shows as very wise act) .
In his book ‘ The Holographic Universe’ Michael Talbot
on the page 160 explained this situation in such way:
‘ Contrary to what everyone knows it is so, it may not be
the brain that produce consciousness, but rather consciousness
that creates the appearance of the brain - . . . .’
But as the ‘Bhagavad Gita’ says:
Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form.
They do not know My transcendental nature and
My supreme dominion over all that be.
/ Chapter 9. Text 11./
========== . .
Best wishes.
Israel Sadovnik. / Socratus.

http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=23624&st=15
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2547&st=105
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2548

================== . .

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#32544 - 11/05/09 04:25 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Samantha]
Andrew Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/04/09
Posts: 3
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Hello, I am new here. I am a filmmaker, with a background in organized religion which I left a long time ago due to discrepancies in doctrine with historical facts. I am currently developing a documentary on Miracles, from the scientific perspective of mind over matter, natural and spiritual healing and self generated remissions of illness.

I find the dilemma of atheism vs. theism as interesting as creation vs evolution..and the study of ancient history and civilizations, primarily of the 'gods who came to earth' long ago. Most of history has been rewritten by the victors, and until recently, has ignored the discovery and deciphering of Sumerian cuneiform tablets, which shed an interesting angle on the definition of 'god'. My journey out of Watchtower mind control required a complete reworking of my previous belief system structure. A basic lay-understanding of what those tablets revealed helped me to leave a very closed minded religious Illuminati experiment known today as Jehovah's Witnesses. I did have help.

In my humble opinion, any discussion of who or where god is, needs to include an open-minded investigation of any reference in history to visitors who are NOT native to this planet, but may possibly have been here long before humanity, and been regarded as 'gods'.

We are living in interesting times, my new friends in discussion. Several countries around the world have now opened secret files of UFO activities, and numerous whistle blowers are coming out of NASA and various other '3 letter' agencies which have suppressed this knowledge out of fear of losing control over the masses with their power and control structure. Massive amounts of evidence of higher life forms existing in the universe, which might more aptly be called the 'multiverse' according to quantum physicists like Kaku, is now coming forward due to the freedom of information available on the internet and youtube.

Recently in July 09 in Spain, Robert Dean, formerly of NASA and military above top secret clearance, publicly showed images from voyager's trip past Saturn, of which only one set was not destroyed. Not only did these images reveal huge artificially constructed and intelligently piloted electromagnetic crafts, but also showed one cigar ship embedded in one of the rings or Saturn which was estimated to be 2000 miles long and 400 miles across.

Perhaps George Lucas's visions of Joseph Campbell's mythology and legends brought to the screen in Star Wars was not only an imaginary fairytale for kids. Perhaps it has awakened the collective unconscious into realization that humanity's journey into a higher level of consciousness, requires a complete reworking of our understanding of god, religion and how the human mind processes beliefs. Perhaps, as the aboriginals say, "CREATOR and/or GREAT SPIRIT" is a better attempt at explanation for the currently limited understanding of 'god'.

Some ancients such as the Dogon tribe in Africa and the Mayan civilization were quite aware of this, and yet with all the modern technologies available, we find we are still citizens of a planet which ridicules extraterrestrial presence and realities. This, my friends, is about to change. For the first time in modern history we are about to witness the convergence of science and religion, which will both be brought kicking and screaming into a synergistic understanding and awareness of our presence in a galactic community, which has so far been reluctant to reveal itself, because in their words 'man is still considered dangerous and barbaric' for the simple reason that we have not learned as yet, that 'killing each other' for whatever reason, is simply unacceptable behavior in the galactic community.

I realize that this topic may be a bit 'out there' for some here, yet we must realize first of all, the planet earth is at a point in our history which will result in huge, massive changes, some already underway. Most of the media's attention on issues such as global climate change completely overlook the facts that are collectively available, as we have been here before. Yet our belief systems are commonly structured in such a way, whether by commerce, science OR religion, to ignore most of this previously recorded data, in favor of our unending need to strengthen the status quo and ignore the lessons of forgotten and hidden history.

My conclusion to these thoughts is, that whether science, religion, archeology, astronomy, medicine, physics, psychology, spirituality, or any of these or other fields of study and interest..must all look towards a coming quantum leap in human consciousness which by it's very nature will nullify a lot of what we have believed for centuries, to be fact.

Welcome to the future. Welcome to the incoming age of light(literally). The photon belt as described by some mystics and scientists, as well as the Inuit(who have seen it) in far reaches of northern Canada, is about to alter the very nature of our DNA. It is a band of sub-atomic photon particles running through our galaxy, which our solar system is entering now. The golden age of a thousand years of peace is about to envelop and affect everyone of us. It has already resulted in the birthing of extremely gifted 6th sense children which the Russians and Chinese openly honor and study. Unfortunately in North America, we feed these gifted children Ritalin and medicate them into oblivion.

I have opened myself here with much more information than I originally intended. All of the above postulations I make are verifiable through personal research. I am at a point in my life where I feel no need to prove anything any longer. 30 years ago I was busy full-time preaching of watchtower doctrines, believing at the time that it was truth, and it was absolute. Almost 30 years later, I realize that not only is truth relative, but understandable to me..only through each of my own reference points.

Likewise,my understanding of 'god' or GoD' or GOD, has changed significantly. Both Einstein and Tesla understood that there is an aether, an electromagnetic energetic information medium present in all of space, whether a vacuum or atmospheric in nature. Some call it 'zero point'. Certain gifted individuals throughout history, such as Edgar Cayce the sleeping prophet, were able to 'access' this medium in stored information and make beneficial use of knowledge, wisdom and previously untapped free energy resources, knowledge of which has been too long suppressed. Some call it the akashic records, some call it the universal library, doesn't matter what we call it. If we can maintain information on magnetic tape, and radio frequencies can transmit huge amounts of data, who or what's to say that all the knowledge of the universe is not only available, but accessible to everyone with a focused thought? Collective amnesia, using only 5-10 % of our brain, has so far prevented this for most people. This also, is about to change. Imagine knowing without doubt when someone is lying to you. Imagine that there are no secrets any longer. Imagine knowing when someone is contacting you telepathically, and you no longer need your cellphone. Imagine healing yourself of virtually anything, within minutes or hours, or days. These are no longer daydreams, this IS a reality for some, already.

In closing, I wish to say that any understanding of god in my personal sense, needs to include much more than simply science and religion are able to offer, since the human's nature is to compartmentalize and categorize everything into departments which then for reasons of bureaucracy, red tape or whatever egotistic reasons for refusing open communications,is hidden from the whole. I could tell you about a device patented by 2 doctors in 1991 which eradicates viruses including HIV with a 9volt battery. But I won't for now, because I could go to jail. Democracy? Freedom of information? True innovation rewarded? We live in a strange and contradictory world my friends.

We then file away knowledge into different disciplines, which have over thousands of years become radically closed and over protected in their ability to appreciate the holistic, synergistic and complete Oneness of ALL that IS. In short, we will soon find that all really comes from what many have tried to interpret in different ways...as the original formless substance, which is everywhere.

Pleased to make your acquaintance,

Andrew

*There was never an original big bang, the human simply has trouble understanding the concept of infinity*~Anon.
_________________________
"The most beautiful is the mysterious" ~Einstein

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#32545 - 11/05/09 04:25 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Tutor Turtle Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: eccles
TT

Your disagreement is noted. But atheists who concern themselves with "proof" and "evidence" are easy meat for believers who find "evidence" in "existence" itself. I raised the parent-child issue to illustrate the "security" function of religion. Atheists who simply define themselves as being without the need for such security myths have no need for futile discussion of the intricacies of "aspects of a deity".

opinion noted.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#32546 - 11/05/09 07:31 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Andrew]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
Andrew,

Has it occured to you that you might have exchanged the fruits of one "tree of gullibity" for those of a whole orchard of others ? i.e. Is there anything bar standard religion that you are NOT prepared to use for your prophecy of "a quantum leap in consciousness" ?

In psychology there is what is known as a "schizophrenogenic family", i.e a social grouping whose communicative mode tends to precipitate schizophrenic symptoms in one or more of its members. I put it to you that your socialzation amongst Jehova's Witnesses could have been "bizarre-belief-ogenic". Or to put it more simply, you are looking for something to fill the gaps left, after your rejection of your first belief system.





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#32547 - 11/05/09 08:41 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415

Science and religion in tandem can become a great force
to liberate the mind and help the humans to a fuller and better
understanding of reality.
/ Sikh Religion and Science
by G. S. Sidhu M.A; FIL (London) /
http://www.sikhroots.net/resources/Sikh_Religion%20&Science.pdf
====================

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#32548 - 11/05/09 08:50 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: eccles
Socratus,
... phrases like "God the Father", or "We are all God's children" which atheists find ridiculous.
Eccles, G0D just told me: "I find my atheist children very amusing, and often ridiculous. Just wait till Mother Mary gets home! She'll deal with them, for disobeying me! laugh

=========================
E=MC2 + GOD [Creative agape/love in, through and around all that is.]

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#32549 - 11/05/09 10:38 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
eccles wrote
"It is the childish nature of such "faith", epitomised by phrases like "God the Father", or "We are all God's children" which atheists find ridiculous".,,,

and I think that this contribution (by socratus) could be added to that observation too...

...."---if God exist, HE /SHE/ IT must be
in every place it means in human brains too."

The human brain itself is merely a body part and in my post the phrase "human brains" was a metaphor for "the ideas of humans" which are, I am sure that you will agree are often far from godly. To make it even more clear for literalists-- "Human brain" in my original statement represents "human constructs/ideas", of which 'god' is an example. It is an abstract human concept and is differently interpreted by every person.

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#32550 - 11/05/09 10:41 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: socratus

Science and religion in tandem can become a great force
to liberate the mind and help the humans to a fuller and better
understanding of reality....
Socratus, my sentiments, exactly!
======================
To Andrew--the latest member of this dynamic team in the process of becoming servants of the social good: What do you think of the suggestion by Socratus?

BTW, I like your opening remarks, especially the way you gave us some background of who you are and why you got involved in NOT QUITE SCIENCE.

Your positive mental attitude is quite refreshing, even though I may challenge you on some of your presumptions and ideas.

I hope you do not mind a challenge, OK? Feel free to challenge me back, as long as you offer it in agape, which I do to you--if you know what I mean.

Nameste--looking for GOD--interpret as you will--in all who read this post.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#32551 - 11/06/09 06:49 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
eccles Offline
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Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
To argue that "science" helps us understand "reality" assumes that "reality" has objective status. Socratus clearly holds that assumption with his emphasis on the word "fact".

However, he should note that the word "fact" comes from the Latin facare "to make/do/construct" (as in the French faire). This point is illustrated by Thomas khun's analysis of "scientific progress" as a succession of social paradigms amongst those who call themselves "scientists". In such a view, "objectivity" amounts to "temporary social agreement".

In so far that "science" allows humans to predict and control their lives to a limited extent, and "religion" fills the "control gaps", we can postulate the possibility of "social dancing" between the two. Whether we see such dance dates leading to a fruitful "marriage" requires pretty strong rose coloured spectacles.

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#32552 - 11/06/09 07:13 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Andrew]
Revlgking Offline
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Quote:
Likewise, my understanding of 'god' or GoD' or GOD, has changed significantly. Both Einstein and Tesla understood that there is an aether, an electromagnetic energetic information medium present in all of space, whether a vacuum or atmospheric in nature. Some call it 'zero point'.

Certain gifted individuals throughout history, such as Edgar Cayce the sleeping prophet, were able to 'access' this medium in stored information and make beneficial use of knowledge, wisdom and previously untapped free energy resources, knowledge of which has been too long suppressed.
Andrew, you mention Edgar Cayce the sleeping prophet.
My daughter, Catherine, has this very useful gift. Her ability to go into deep trance helped save her life. It also helped her find her life's career as an artist, and drugless therapist, in partnership with a fellow artist, Wayne.

Here is a sample of their living work of art in progress: It is at Freedom Cove, Near Tofino, BC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDqbfiejLdM

Many times, free of charge, she has used her gift to help others.

Eccles, it seems to be a fact that healthy religion--that is, the open, inclusive and non-doctrinaire kind, and in the philosophical sense of the word--can live in harmony and in creative partnership with the sciences and the arts.

BTW, Eccles, I assume you are into science of some sort, right? I also assume you are not one those who believes that all the sciences--or for that matter, all the arts--in all applications, always take the high moral ground. Agreed?

I always ask those who make such a claim: Tell me about the scientists who, for centuries have given themselves in the service of cruel and psychopathic tyrants (for example, Nero, Henry VIII, Napoleon, Hitler and his Nazism, Stalin, several popes and leaders of Islam, etc). Dare I say: not even all democratic republics have been without some guilt.

And look at the way the arts, including the media and sports--all have been used by the Nazis, and the Communists, etc. Tyrants have always used everything in their control to impose their will to power. And let us not forget the powerful tool we call religion.


Am I out order to suggest that Sick sciences and sick arts are no more to be desired than sick religions?

And, it seems to me, that one of the sure signs of disease is when--instead of finding ways to collaborate--all they do is attack one another. Dawkins, Hitchins et al, take note.

In the hands of powerful fools, all things, including good things, including spirituality, are nothing but tools of destruction.


Edited by Revlgking (11/06/09 08:20 AM)
Edit Reason: always useful
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#32554 - 11/06/09 10:57 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Physics and Anomalies.
http://www.anomalytv.com/site/category/telekinesis/
???
============

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#32557 - 11/06/09 12:49 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
eccles Offline
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Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
Given the history of humanity we have absolutely no reason to be optimistic about "beneficient progress". Most technologies, including medicine, arise from military or economic competition, and great conflicts continue to loom in terms of use of the planet's resources. Such philosophical/spiritual speculations in which we are engaged here may be no more than a mental luxury of "Westerners" who "forget" they utilise twenty five times per capita of resources than the poorest countries.

In the light of the above, Dawkins (et al) may ultimately make more sense than some of us might care to admit.

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#32558 - 11/06/09 03:14 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Socratus,

This does not seem to be a very well-controlled experiment. Uri Geller performs much more impressive tricks, but that's what he's doing - tricks.

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#32559 - 11/06/09 06:47 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: eccles
Given the history of humanity we have absolutely no reason to be optimistic about "beneficient progress".
So I take it you base your personal choices on historical references which you give validity to, as the meaning of life...
Originally Posted By: eccles

Most technologies, including medicine, arise from military or economic competition, and great conflicts continue to loom in terms of use of the planet's resources.

You're saying mankind has no inherent nature to progress but rather to succeed, in an economic evironment.
Originally Posted By: eccles
Such philosophical/spiritual speculations in which we are engaged here may be no more than a mental luxury of "Westerners" who "forget" they utilise twenty five times per capita of resources than the poorest countries.

Mankind is without any properties that might set the species apart from herd animals. Intelligence is not only a luxury but wasted in inefficiency and blindness to any awareness that there is anything other than our own personal needs and desires...???? confused
Originally Posted By: eccles

In the light of the above, Dawkins (et al) may ultimately make more sense than some of us might care to admit.

I suppose if you believe the earth is flat and you could sail over the edge of the earth into oblivion, your ability to comprehend life would be limited to the things you believe are real.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#32561 - 11/06/09 07:41 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Tutor Turtle]
eccles Offline
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Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
TT

I am saying that contemplating "Gods" or "meanings of life" is the price we pay as a species for possessing internalized planning skills which anticipate our own mortality. Why price ?...because such mental meanderings are at best futile, and at worst pernicious, as history continues to demonstrate.

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#32564 - 11/07/09 01:00 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Zephir Offline
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Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
In AWT Universe appears like being composed of nested density fluctuations of matter, similar to fractal foam. This geometry isn't ad-hoced, but it follows from principles of probability: every object in Universe is composed of many others smaller ones, which can be interpreted like density fluctuations of particle gas, i.e. Aether. The extrapolation of this chaotic field appears like omnipresent omnipotent intelligence, which is similar to God archetype in many aspects.

For example, in AWT event horizon of black holes is exaggerated example of gravitational lensing, which leads to the total reflection phenomena. During travel into black hole we could see (providing we could survive such travel without evaporation), the event horizon is opening gradually and at the certain moment it would disappear under formation of another event horizon behind our back. The space-time inhomogeneities would create another black holes around a sky - so we could see, the former Universe generation is formed by black hole as well, the inner surface of which is behaving like one-way mirror, reflecting blue color preferably.



This brings a hell and heaven archetype, as the outer surface of black hole resembles an attracting hole of the hell, glowing in dark red via Hawking mechanism - while the same artifact from inside would appear like reflecting and repulsive bladachino tabernacle resembling the mirror-like silver sky with bluish cloud undulating majestically, i.e. a heavens. In Genesis formation of life occurred in six steps, non-uniformly distributed in space-time scale, but equidistantly separated in entropy density scale ("days"). The first stage was a formation of space and time ("heavens and the earth") inside of graviton condensate ("darkness over the deep and God's breath (Aether) hovering over the waters" (waves?)). Gravitons are ambivalent particles, serving both like boson, both like fermions due the supersymmetry. During Big Bang event ("let there be light") phase transition of space-time has occurred, followed by separation of first generation of bosons, i.e. photons ("God separated the light from the darkness") in process of so called inflation, which resulted into condensation of black hole dome, forming observable generation of Universe ("let there be a dome in the midst of the waters"), i.e. the vacuum formed by interior of black holes in particular ("God called the dome Sky").

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#32566 - 11/07/09 01:17 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: eccles
TT

I am saying that contemplating "Gods" or "meanings of life" is the price we pay as a species for possessing internalized planning skills which anticipate our own mortality. Why price ?...because such mental meanderings are at best futile, and at worst pernicious, as history continues to demonstrate.
I don't deny your history, just that it isn't the only history, nor are your assumptions reflective of true human potential.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#32572 - 11/07/09 05:09 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
socratus Offline
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Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend
Socratus,

This does not seem to be a very well-controlled experiment.
Uri Geller performs much more impressive tricks,
but that's what he's doing - tricks.

===========================
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYGjtlgGtY4&feature=player_embedded

. . . . etc
===

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#32574 - 11/07/09 06:09 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
Andrew Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/04/09
Posts: 3
Loc: Ontario, Canada
HI REV, seems I have not figured out how to 'quote' in the box. Should have previewed my post to eccles.

Your daughter and her partner sound like very gifted and fascinating individuals. What an amazing adventure.. to live within nature in peace and harmony with the environment! ..Awesome!

A few years ago I had a studio in a warehouse in Cambridge Ontario, right on the grand river. It was third story, with several large windows facing west, watching the sunset every day of the year, and watching the river flow and the Herons feed on the shoreline.. IT was a place of much healing for myself, and learning the Art of Being. IT too, was place of living art and 20 years of growing.

Right now I am in a small cottage right on the pond in a small town called Ayr...south of Kitchener. The banners on the streetlamps say "AYR- WHERE TIME STANDS STILL". Come to think of it, ever since i moved here time seems to stand still. It's a place where stranger smile and say hello, even if they do not know you.

IT seems there are places where peace does exist, as on your daughters floating work of art..

I believe living one's passion is a true sense of art, science and spirit...and within nature ..this IS our connection to the Divine. It is NOT to be interpreted or explained, but to be Experienced. For in this experience we merge with the Oneness some inadequately attempt to describe as 'god'. [u][/u]
_________________________
"The most beautiful is the mysterious" ~Einstein

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#32576 - 11/07/09 06:37 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Andrew Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/04/09
Posts: 3
Loc: Ontario, Canada
[eccles]Andrew,

Has it occured to you that you might have exchanged the fruits of one "tree of gullibity" for those of a whole orchard of others ? i.e. Is there anything bar standard religion that you are NOT prepared to use for your prophecy of "a quantum leap in consciousness" ?

>>>>>>>>eccles, Yes, I have considered that. Perhaps gullibility is best reserved for those who consider anything but the most rigorously accepted status quo reality as fact, without consideration of the evidence presented by numerous research scientists in search of the nature of multi-dimensional potentialities. Dr Ian Stevenson on reincarnation, Robert Monroe on astral/soul travel and out of body experiences, Elizabeth Kuebler-Ross on life after death and near death experiences. Perhaps to some here they are out of the realm of science OR religion. Perhaps a more recent addition would be Dr John Mack , head of psychiatry at Harvard and his groundbreaking work on alien abduction experiences. The bodies of works produced by these highly educated and respected travelers into the multi-dimensional nature of the Multiverse, are only a small reference in connection to many tens of thousands of years of higher consciousness experiences by our aboriginal ancestors. As Chief Seattle aptly put it over 150 years ago::..."WE do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children"

True innovation in science and University research is dead, according to neuroscientist Dr Michael Persinger, whom I recently interviewed at length. His comments, not mine, the reason being ..government and corporate funding dictates into which direction research is to be done. Reality in knowledge today is now to be guided according to 'the powers that be'. Numerous innovations, historical data and archeological finds have been suppressed which would change our understanding of the world, our heritage AND history in the blink of an eye .

In my humble opinion, it is your own belief structure which dictates what is your truth and reality, for you. If it not real for you, it simply is not real to you.

Little experience recounted by Dr Edgar Mitchell (6th man to walk on the moon) in a recent book by Gregg Bradden, Mitchell traveled the world looking for a healer to heal his mother of blindness. He found one, she was healed, and overjoyed to "SEE". When she slowly came down from her 'high' of being healed of blindness, she asked about the beliefs of the healer. Once she found out the healer was NOT a christian, she renounced the healing due to the healers' pagan origins AND BELIEFS, and said..she wished it had never happened. AND SO IT WAS. She promptly lost her sight and became blind again.<<<<<<<<<




In psychology there is what is known as a "schizophrenogenic family", i.e a social grouping whose communicative mode tends to precipitate schizophrenic symptoms in one or more of its members.

>>>>>>>>>I see what you refer to as 'schizophrenogenic'... also evident in organized sports, politics, corporations, higher education , organized unions and the labor movement, and most importantly THE MEDIA..all of whom I have had the experience to working with and for , one way or another in the last 20 years. <<<<<<<<<


I put it to you that your socialzation amongst Jehova's Witnesses could have been "bizarre-belief-ogenic". Or to put it more simply, you are looking for something to fill the gaps left, after your rejection of your first belief system.

>>>>>>>> According to Dr Persinger, we have about as many neurons in our brain as there are stars in our galaxy, the milky way. Myself, I am a perpetual researcher for truth, knowledge and justice for all. I could care less about what other people believe. I do not 'need' a belief to 'fill any gap'. I am too far out in left field having composed and made up my own, for most people to accept me into 'their' fold. And that's just fine, because I make up my own belief based on what evidence makes sense to my intuition . If no one else was to see or accept that evidence for themselves, or does not have the time to pursue the evidence, that does not make their awareness or perception more truthful, powerful or important or any more or less real than mine is to me. It is simply like beauty, in the eye of the beholder...So if you do not see what I see, perhaps you don't need a pagan healer either :>)<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Cheers

PS..perhaps you have a point after all..not everything and everyone is headed for a quantum leap in consciousness. After all, certain aspects of this reality are certainly winding down rapidly...like a lot of peoples' pensions, retirement and mutual funds. Not to forget mentioning, a lot of jobs and careers will never be the same.

And for those out in line to get their dose of the flu shot, I can guarantee you that their quantum leap will certainly not be into higher consciousness.;>)
_________________________
"The most beautiful is the mysterious" ~Einstein

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#32577 - 11/07/09 09:24 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Andrew]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
Andrew,

Your reply is indicative of psychological stability. Scientfic paradigms will inevitably continue to shift to encompass some of "the unexplained" and to produce more questions. But in practical terms, you will no doubt make a living by entertaining the more gullible who thirst for that myth called "objective truth".

TT,

Our differences amount to your optimism versus my pessimism. I agree that "history" is selective, but I suggest to you that examples of uncoerced "selfless acts" (with no thought of fame, celestial reward, or conscience easing)are the rare exceptions which underscore the general rule that we naturally behave selfishly and parochially.

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#32578 - 11/07/09 04:35 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Revlgking Offline
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Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Finally, IMO, real conversation/dialogue seems to be taking place.

Will I offend anyone if I say: THANK GOD!!!!? laugh

Eccles, with all due respect, I'd like to add that--in partnership with the psychological and somatological legs--a pneumatological leg is essential if we are to have stability and balance in our lives.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#32579 - 11/07/09 05:46 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: eccles
Andrew,

Your reply is indicative of psychological stability. Scientfic paradigms will inevitably continue to shift to encompass some of "the unexplained" and to produce more questions. But in practical terms, you will no doubt make a living by entertaining the more gullible who thirst for that myth called "objective truth".

The nature of humanity being that it seeks material wealth, fame and fortune.... sick
Originally Posted By: eccles

TT,

Our differences amount to your optimism versus my pessimism. I agree that "history" is selective, but I suggest to you that examples of uncoerced "selfless acts" (with no thought of fame, celestial reward, or conscience easing)are the rare exceptions which underscore the general rule that we naturally behave selfishly and parochially.
What is natural about fear and delusion? frown
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#32580 - 11/07/09 08:33 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Tutor Turtle]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
Quote:
What is natural about fear and delusion?


I didn't mention these, but "fear" is naturally a "survival mechanism" (re adrenalin/flight or fight).

"Delusion" involves psychological investment in a mythical "objective reality" beyond that which we all use for everyday transactions. Such "objectivity" is based on "persistances" with respect to our life spans but these "persistances" are naturally but erroneously extrapolated to non-relative (dualistic) scenarios in which "things" are considered to exist independently of the observers who do the "thinging". (Those naive realists who advocate the "existence" of "unobserved trees falling in forests" are forgetting that they themselves are still doing the observing "in their mind's eye").

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#32582 - 11/08/09 04:54 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: eccles
Quote:
What is natural about fear and delusion?


I didn't mention these, but "fear" is naturally a "survival mechanism" (re adrenalin/flight or fight).

Employed in the majority of situations, not necessarily situations that are life threatening. This causes sickness and aging of the body. And tho you didn't mention fear outright, you do mention a belief that normal behavior is one of selfishness rather than selflessness. Such behavior is only driven by psychosis which has fear as the root of emotions and belief. Fear of lack, loss of control, self worth issues, based on levels of comparison etc. You call this normal, I say the human condition which is normal is based on love and compassion, and compassion is only normal when it is fueled by wisdom rather than emotional attachments.
Originally Posted By: eccles

"Delusion" involves psychological investment in a mythical "objective reality" beyond that which we all use for everyday transactions.

What you call mythical in reference to the comparative psychosis which you call normal, is only mythical because you believe Love is outside of the normal human behavior.
Originally Posted By: eccles
Such "objectivity" is based on "persistances" with respect to our life spans but these "persistances" are naturally but erroneously extrapolated to non-relative (dualistic) scenarios in which "things" are considered to exist independently of the observers who do the "thinging". (Those naive realists who advocate the "existence" of "unobserved trees falling in forests" are forgetting that they themselves are still doing the observing "in their mind's eye").

The minds eye is often linked to a greater truth than the psychosis of delusion and fear which some would rather call truth over reality.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#32583 - 11/08/09 06:03 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Tutor Turtle]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
The idea that the universe can be viewed as the compound
of two basic orders, the implicate and the explicate, can be
found in many other traditions.
The Tibetan Buddhists call these two aspects the void and
nonvoid. The nonvoid is the reality of visible objects. The
void, like the implicate order, is the birthplace of all things
in the universe, . . .
. . . only the void is real and all forms in the objective world
are illusory, . . . .
The Hindus call the implicate level of reality Brahman.
Brahman is formless but is the birthplace of all forms in
visible reality, which appear out of it and then enfold back
into it in endless flux.
. . . consciousness is not only a subtler form of matter,
but it is more fundamental than matter, and in the Hindu cosmology it is matter that has emerged from consciousness,
and not the other way around. Or as the Vedas put it, the
physical world is brought into being through both the
‘ veiling’ and ‘ projecting’ powers of consciousness.
. . . the material universe is only a second- generation
reality, a creation of veiled consciousness, the Hindus
say that it is transitory and unreal, or maya.
. . .
This same concept can be found in Judaic thought.
. . . . in shamanistic thinking . . . . . .
. . . . . .
Like Bohm, who says that consciousness always has its
source in the implicate, the aborigines believe that the
true source of the mind is in the transcendent reality of
the dreamtime. Normal people do not realize this and
believe that their consciousness is in their bodies.
. . . . .
The Dogan people of the Sudan also believe that the
physical world is the product of a deeper and more
fundamental level of reality . . . . . .
===
/ The Holographic Universe.
Part 3 / 9. Pages 286 – 289.
By Michael Talbot. /
==================== . . .

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#32584 - 11/08/09 11:20 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Book / The Holographic Universe.
Part 3 / 9. Pages 287 – 289.
By Michael Talbot. /
==================== . . .
My questions after reading this book.

Is it possible that Physics confirmed and proved the
Religion philosophy of life ?
How is it possible to understand the Religion philosophy
of life from modern Physics view?
#
My opinion.
Fact.
The detected material mass of the matter in the
Universe is so small (the average density of all
substance in the Universe is approximately
p=10^-30 g/sm^3) that it cannot ‘close’ the
Universe into sphere and therefore our Universe
as whole is ‘open’, Endless Void / Nothingness /
Vacuum : T=0K.
Quantum Physics says the Vacuum is the birthplace
of all ‘ virtual’ particles . Nobody knows what there are,
but ‘the virtual particles’ change the Vacuum in a
local places and create Nonvoid / Material / Gravity
World with stars, planets and all another objects and
subjects in the Universe.
=== .
Without Eternal/ Infinite Void / Vacuum physics makes no sense.
But . . . . . . .
" The problem of the exact description of vacuum,
in my opinion, is the basic problem now before physics.
Really, if you can’t correctly describe the vacuum,
how it is possible to expect a correct description
of something more complex? "
/ Paul Dirac ./
==========.
Best wishes.
Israel Sadovnik. / Socratus.
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=23624&st=15
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2547&st=105
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2548
================== . .

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#32603 - 11/11/09 11:55 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
James S Saint Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/09/09
Posts: 6
Originally Posted By: socratus
Where and Who is God ?

By idea the God ( HE / SHE / IT ) must be :
1.
Something Infinity Absolute it means to be in every place

Logic. The word came from the concept of a "log" being firm and immutable.
Originally Posted By: socratus
2.
And something Absolute Concrete/ Limited it means
to be exactly in the concrete place.

Logic. It is literally everywhere and within all things and reigns over all existence.

Originally Posted By: socratus
Question:
Can God create our World without physics laws and formulas ?
The answer is: No !

God (i.e. Logic) created those "laws of physics" that man merely discovers and attempts to understand.

Originally Posted By: socratus
Question:
Have physicists found these two Absolute parameters
in the Universe ?
My answer is: Yes !

Yet still do not understand them. There are "higher" absolute "parameters" that can be known without the slightest empirical evidence.
Originally Posted By: socratus
One Infinity Absolute Parameter is Vacuum: T=0K.
Second Absolute Concrete/ Limited Parameter is speed of
Quantum of Light in Vacuum: c=1.

A true absolute void of nothingness, a true vacuum, cannot and never has existed. This is logically provable.

The speed of light can be logically derived void of any empirical evidence - once God is understood.

There are still far greater absolutes than those to understand.

Originally Posted By: socratus
Using these two Absolute Parameters I explain
the creation of the Universe step by step.
== .

Do tell. Although I suspect by what you have said here, that you are just beginning.

What is the fundamental logic of the impossibility of indifference? Within that question and answer, you discover God and the Creator of all things.


Edited by James S Saint (11/11/09 11:58 AM)

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#32604 - 11/11/09 04:44 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: James S Saint]
eccles Offline
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Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
Quote:
Logic. The word came from the concept of a "log" being firm and immutable.
laugh

...and you expect to be taken seriously after that ?

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#32606 - 11/11/09 05:09 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
James S Saint Offline
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Registered: 11/09/09
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What some people take seriously or not holds absolutely no interest to me.

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#32607 - 11/11/09 05:51 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: James S Saint]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: James S Saint
What some people take seriously or not holds absolutely no interest to me.

If that were absolutely true you wouldn't be engaging in any conversation, other than in private with yourself.
_________________________
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#32608 - 11/11/09 07:29 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Tutor Turtle]
eccles Offline
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....which raises the interesting question (following Dennett) as to whether all "selves" are a function of "dialogue"... internal dialogue being the exchanges between "committee members" we erroneously ignore when we assume "self" is unified (following Gurdjieff).

...but we digress from the "God debate" unless we extrapolate that all concepts, whether they be "selves" "gods" or "rocks" are simply linguistic (and subsequently cognitive) evocations i.e nodes within a shifting social reality.

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#32609 - 11/12/09 04:18 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Ellis Offline
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eccls-- I can't help but think that what everyone is saying (with lots and lots of words) is this---

---God exists for an individual if they believe any of the possible manifestations as truth. God is a human construct of faith and belief. Once that is accepted it is possible to prove that god exists, because the proof will follow the belief, not the other way round.

The holy stories, writings, various dogmas and forms of worship are all add-ons invented by believers and, in many cases are strictly controlled by the senior officials of the various forms of the varied religions. As such they are not an essential part of belief in divinity, and are merely the social trappings of religion.

It all comes down to personal belief. An atheist will not believe the proof because to him/her it is proof of nothing, as there is no belief to start with. A believer believes the proof because it confirms beliefs already held.

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#32613 - 11/12/09 06:40 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Ellis]
eccles Offline
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Posts: 149
I agree with you with a slight shift of focus. The later Heidegger came out with the statement that "Language speaks the Man" implying that socialization via linguistic segmentation of "the world" is prior to "thought" (This is also known as the strong form of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis). It follows that all "meanings" are socially underpinned including that of words like "belief" and "truth".

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#32615 - 11/12/09 11:37 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
socratus Offline
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Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Different points of view.
1.
In Physics we trust. / Tarun Biswas /
and plus millions of other believers .
2.
Science is not always as objective as we would like to believe.
/ Michael Talbot. / and plus few others.
3.
Religion or Physics ? Faith or Knowledge ?
/ some doubtful people. /
4.
Science and religion in tandem can become a great force
to liberate the mind and help the humans to a fuller and better
understanding of reality.
/ G. S. Sidhu / and plus some individuals .
===== .
P.S.
In Physics we trust. Is it correct ?
Yes, it is logically correct. Why ?
Because only Physics can logically explain us
the Ultimate Nature of Reality.

Israel Socratus.
===========================

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#32617 - 11/12/09 03:25 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
eccles Offline
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Quote:
In Physics we trust. Is it correct ?
Yes, it is logically correct. Why ?
Because only Physics can logically explain us
the Ultimate Nature of Reality.


Wrong !

There is no way that Physics, or anything else for that matter, can logically lay claim to ultimate "reality", because of Godel's incompleteness theorem.
The fact that we "trust" physics is based on pragmatic success in prediction and control, not the ontological status of its concepts.

All claim's about "reality" (ultimate or otherwise) are metaphysical, and their coherence may require metalogic. For an understanding of this fundamental point I suggest those interested read Piaget's "genetic epistemology", which takes as axiomatic the fact that "logic" is derived from "cognition" and has no independent epistemological status.

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#32624 - 11/13/09 06:37 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
socratus Offline
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Doug.E.Barr wrote:

Physics will answer the last "how?" That you can trust.
Physics will not answer "the last why ".
You will have to find something else to trust.
/ So far only Doug. E. Barr /

Socratus.
From 'how' to 'why' is one step.

Doug.E.Barr wrote:

You can have one foot in "why" the other in "how" but
not at the same time. When you take your last step in "how"
you will be standing in "why" on one foot with no place to go.

Socratus.
For me your explanation is sound like one problem in the Physics:
the problem of particle’s dualism. Physicists know what particle
is and what electromagnetic wave is but how is possible to unit
them together they don’t know.

But "why" and "how" must have some connection.
If we take ‘how’ as a physics and ‘why’ as a religion and
when we ask question : Religion or Physics ?
Faith or Knowledge ? it seems like they different parts of knowledge.
But I think that we cannot ask:
« the reason or the consequence ? » because must be a connection
between them. The same connection must be between
Religion and Physics, Faith and Knowledge.

As Albert Einstein said:
All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree.
=== .

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#32627 - 11/13/09 07:57 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
eccles Offline
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Quote:
As Albert Einstein said:
All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree


A cynic might remark "Did he say that before or after he left his first wife after achieving his celebrity status ?".

However the central point here is that Einstein's statement is metaphysical and alludes to "the God of Spinoza" as being "creative Nature itself". But such a stance, on the "orderliness of creation" effectively precluded him from accepting the probabilistic arguments of quantum mechanics. Much of his subsequent life was a futile struggle to support the "God doesn't play dice" argument.
Therefore, to cite Einstein as an authority on the co-extension of "science" and "religion" is barking up Einstein's "wrong tree".

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#32917 - 12/15/09 06:23 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: socratus
Where and Who is God ? .......
Good dialogue, everyone. If the following comment on the topic is a repeat, I apologize:

Socratus, I know you mean well in raising this question, but, for me, it is a question that I, as a unitheist, would never ask. www.unitheist.org

IMO, GOD is not a some 'who' who exists some 'where', like you and I exist. For me, to think of divine Being, the infinite and eternal Now in this way, is to create an idol with the mind.

When Richard Dawkins asks theists: "What and where is your evidence for 'God'" he is asking the same kind of question we have as the title of this topic. In effect he is asking: "Who is, and where is, your God? Introduce me!"

If he asked me this, my answer would be: "Richard your question is like that asked by very young children: 'Daddy! Mommy! If God made us and the world, who made God?'

"Children need to more mature before they can even ask mature questions and understand mature answers. I trust you are mature and know what I mean when I say: GOD, like the whole of Nature, or Reality, is the every Who and the every Where in which you and I exist.

"Now, as a mature thinkers, surely we can turn on all our physical, mental and spiritual senses. Therefore, to you I say relax, enjoy--and as the scientist you are--continue to help all of us explore this self-evident panentheistic truth. If you prefer to call this truth Nature and/or Reality, go ahead. In addition, I like to use the succinct term GOD. I give you the same freedom of the use of language that I ask of you." smile


Edited by Revlgking (12/15/09 06:54 AM)
Edit Reason: Always a good idea
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#32919 - 12/15/09 09:23 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
Zephir Offline
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God is background universe noise

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#32931 - 12/15/09 07:34 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Zephir]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Zephir
God is background universe noise
Which of course, like 'God', does not exist grin
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#32932 - 12/15/09 10:14 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
Zephir Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Which of course, like 'God', does not exist
Why do you mean? You can watch Him on TV..


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#33950 - 04/15/10 06:37 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Revlgking Offline
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Warren, let's bring up this thread by Socratus:

And thanks from your essay from which I quote
Originally Posted By: Warren
Quote:
...Actually we do know there was not--nor is, an exclusive, eternal nothingness--a complete and absolute nothingness, which is void of energy or change, time or space. Such a nothingness would have precluded our existence. There must have been something more. The problem is where did existence come from? ...

Pardon my edit of your quote. http://www.unitheist.org/cosmogony.html

Warren, could it be that the answer to your question is: It is a creation of the ego? Meanwhile, GØd in me salutes GØd in you and in all that is.

Together we can experience GOD--that which is around, in and through all that IS, which we call 'existence'.

Note that I use the Ø (zero) when I write about god, in me. When I write about god, in the All that IS, I use O.

By the way, recently, I talked about this way of communicating the god-concept--minus the baggage--with an imam (a Muslim cleric), who I heard give a lecture to a group of us at the church I attend, who are interested in understanding Islam, and other religions. He teaches a course in comparative religion at a university near Toronto.

I was very pleased when he said: "May I use your idea in my lectures? I like what it communicates--of course I will give you credit."

I now find that I no longer need to say: I believe in GØd (in me), or in GOD (beyond me). Belief implies doubt. Now the god-concept is as real to me as is my own existence within existence. Carl Jung, in a famous BBC YouTube clip was asked if he believed in God. He said: "I do not believe in God; I know God is..."
http://www.google.ca/search?q=Carl+Jung,+I+know+God+is&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=bTy&rls=com.mandriva:en-US:official&source=univ&tbs=vid:1&tbo=u&ei=yrHGS9LLIsKC8gan3_H2Cg&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CCMQqwQwAw
(See link # 4)

BTW, like the child-like question: If God made everything, who made God? your question: Where did existence come from? is not really a proper question. It is like asking: Where do lanes go when the road sign reads: THIS LANE ENDS? Or: Do cars know how fast they are going?

IMO, a most important question is: What are the practical implications of knowing that GOD and reality are one and the same?


Edited by Revlgking (04/15/10 06:41 AM)
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#33974 - 04/17/10 07:21 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Welcome back Rev.

Here in Oz we are being visited by Karen Armstrong who has published a book "The Human Quest for the Divine". I believe she is Canadian and a religious leader/researcher of some sort. I heard an interview with her in which she rejected the notion of divinity and states that all reigious texts were written by humans themselves. Of course I have no problem with this point of view, however Ms. Armstrong seemed to also say that whilst she sympathises with this idea, she appears to have a religious belief as well.

How can this be so? Surely the whole point of religion (of any sort) is to ensure the the followers of certain rites, dogma and ideas, and have great privileges and entitlements now, and even after death. All religious beliefs contain some measure of teaching that our life on this planet is not all there is, and, providing we have been 'good' we will have life in the hereafter.

It surely is simply not possible to blithely decide that the afterlife sounds good without accepting the existence of the supernatural realm of which it is a part. Or is it possible to pick out the good bits when the difficult bits take too much effort?

Rev-I also suggest in answer to your question, that in fact there are no practical implications in knowing that god and reality are the same. It is a matter of belief. You would believe that you know that it is so and act accordingly--- I would believe that I know it is not and not do much about it.

We are not able to prove who is correct!

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#33980 - 04/17/10 06:26 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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"Rev-I also suggest in answer to your question, that in fact there are no practical implications in knowing that god and reality are the same."

Ellis, no practical implications for you, of course, because you do not accept, as I do, that god and reality are, IMO, one and the same. Like Buddhism (a non-theistic religion), Carl Jung, Spinoza--Einstein admired his theology--and others before him, I think of god, not as a theistic and supernatural being outside of existence, or reality, but as Spirit within, through and around the total physical, mental and spiritual reality, or existence. This being so, with the help of the sciences I use all my senses to know all that I am capable of knowing.

With this in mind, may I assume we can agree that--with the help of the sciences--for you, also, knowing things about reality does have practical value for you.

You said: "It is a matter of belief."

Is reality just a matter of belief for you?

"You would believe that you know that it is so and act accordingly--I would believe that I know it is not and not do much about it."
you said.

Believe that I know? Belief implies doubt. I know that I know. What I know may be incomplete, and even wrong. But at this moment, I know that I am sensing reality--to which I give the very inclusive acronym, GOD. If you prefer to stick with the word 'reality', it is OK by me.

"We are not able to prove who is correct!" You said.

Correct? About what? Do you reject, or deny, reality? Is reality just a matter of faith for you?
============================================
BTW, I met Karen Armstrong at a lecture she gave in Toronto some time ago--good stuff--and I have some of her books. I think she was born in England and was a Catholic nun. Quite a scholar. Very interested in social justice. Worth a Google search on her name.

ABOUT HER CHARTER OF COMPASSION
===============================
http://charterforcompassion.org/



Edited by Revlgking (04/17/10 06:33 PM)
Edit Reason: Always a good practice
_________________________
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#33983 - 04/18/10 01:20 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Rev- What is reality?

I am sure that we have all had the experience of discussing an event or happening with another person who was present at the time only to discover that their perception is totally different to ours.

How can this be? Maybe we exist within our own perception of reality and we live parallel lives with intersecting realities. Sometimes our realities may merge and complement-- other times they may withdraw, oppose or disintegrate as our own reality is challenged.

Who knows!

And the thing is that I actually don't really mind the not-knowing-- and indeed Ms Armstrong discusses that as a characteristic trait of many atheists-- that is that the unknown has not the same fear for them as it has for believers. When you know that this life is all you have you try to enjoy it.... and understand it too. There are enough solvable mysteries in the Universe to think about without fretting about the possibility of the existence of the divine in any of its manifestations.

Of course this does not preclude others from pondering the Universe from the point of view of unravelling its intention. I just don't see much point in that.

Reality with or without belief is a personal decision I think.

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#33985 - 04/18/10 04:21 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ellis
Rev- What is reality?
For me, reality is living, moving and having our being in the eternal now which we know as the space/time continuum. It includes nature, existence, presence, and all life as it has evolved so far. It is all that is good, orderly and desirable--in brief, GOD. It is in this eternal Now, that we can begin to enjoy and truly experience getting to know this Reality.

We will begin to do so by choosing to connect with and/or tuning into this Reality with all the levels of our consciousness which, I feel, will enable us to continue to evolve so that we will eventually become totally free from all physical, mental and spiritual restraints.

FOR ANYONE, SPIRITUAL FREEDOM IS A YES OR NO AWAY
It has taken millions of years for us to evolve to the level where more and more of us are free enough to know that we are aware, self-consciousness, or spiritual beings. At any point, without any sense of being judged by anyone, we are free to say yes or no to this FREEDOM, to take the quantum leap to evolve, exponentially, or not. It is up to each of us to make make the choice for ourselves, when we are ready.


Edited by Revlgking (04/18/10 04:32 AM)
Edit Reason: Always a good practice
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#33986 - 04/18/10 06:38 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
For me, reality is living, moving and having our being in the eternal now which we know as the space/time continuum.It is in this eternal Now, that we can begin to enjoy and truly experience getting to know this Reality.
It has taken millions of years for us to evolve to the level where more and more of us are free enough to know that we are aware, self-consciousness, or spiritual beings.

Edit Reason: Always a good practice


Millions of years to come to a thought, preceding a continuation of evolution, which may sweep away the ideas of this or any other determination, predicated upon a practice of edited or changed reasons which qualify ones self in the ability to know, describe and change the ideas about something to call God.

The claim to be a spiritual being living in illusions of change, with an evolution placed before ones self as the reason for not living as spirit but instead an imprisoned spiritual being locked in a reality called freedom but at the same time not free until more evolution takes place.

Not exactly what the spiritual masters describe as reality. More like what the Pharisees and Sadducees prescribed as reality.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#33987 - 04/18/10 01:54 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Revlgking Offline
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BTW, Ellis, in answering your question, unlike the Pope, I make no claim to being infallible in matters of "faith and morals".

Perhaps we should forget the Pope and consult the "Ascended Masters" http://www.greatdreams.com/masters/ascended-masters.htm

Or is all religion "junk religion"? Don't answer that! It could lead to bloodshed! grin

You say, "And the thing is that I actually don't really mind the not-knowing-- and indeed Ms Armstrong discusses that as a characteristic trait of many atheists-- that is, that the unknown has not the same fear for them as it has for believers...

Fear? In facing the unknown my dominant emotion is not one of fear; it is one of frustration that, though I am extremely curious, I do not seem to have the mental capacity to really understand things like calculus and quantum physics, the Large Hadron Collider (LHC), Higgs boson and the like, which I think are keys to understanding even what scientists are talking about when they speak of other dimensions.

Unlike you, I do "mind the not knowing". Are there geniuses around who really know what they are doing and that they are on to something real and of practical value? Or is it just "junk science"? Is there are a genius around who is capable of making quantum physics, etc., understandable to curious people like me?

All Posters, giving you the right to be different, and as wrong as I could be, I ask: What is your take on reality? Or do you care? And I do not require that you agree with me, OK? smile
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#33989 - 04/18/10 05:47 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking

All Posters, giving you the right to be different, and as wrong as I could be, I ask: What is your take on reality? Or do you care? And I do not require that you agree with me, OK? smile

Assuming the capability without your particular authority to hand over what is rightly available to all...
The frustration of following the ideas of comparison created by the ego where you measure yourself and others into ideas of right and wrong, and where you assume the ability to be wrong while retaining the right to judge others as being wrong is what keeps you or anyone else from moving past or beyond judgments and frustration.
To be truly open, nothing at first glance would/could be wrong. Neither you nor anyone else would find it necessary to ignore the things that are judged and found to be thru determination, frustrating.
There would be greater peace of mind and more love in the experience of everything and your mind would actually find its way to the now and the perfection of the creator in appreciation of his creation (That'd be you) as the present moment.
Reality without conditions is the absolute, and it resides within the realities of isolated perceptions that are egoic, judgmental and personal. It is the peace which passeth all understanding...
When the mind is immersed in the present moment such as the innocence of the mind of a child without preconceived notions of what is good or bad, right or wrong, each moment is fully experienced.
When the mind is full of unconscious ideas, such as fear of suffering, oppression, wrongdoing, injustice, pain etc. the internal radar seeks to find these things and conscious awareness is predisposed by this collection of ideas based on the past. The mind is so busy jumping back and forth from the past to the present seeking to project an ideal future that it cannot and will not reside itself within the present moment of reality to see, touch, taste or fully appreciate the potential of the now. Instead reality is a projection of the past and never of the fullness of now.

Once there was a farmer who had one son and one horse. One day his horse ran away. When his neighbors heard about it, they came to comfort him. “Such bad luck- we’re sorry your only horse ran away.” they said.

“Who is to say whether it’s good or bad, replied the farmer. All I can say for sure is, my horse has run away. Time will tell whether this is good or bad.” His neighbors just shook their heads and walk away.

A week later, his horse returned home- along with 20 wild horses!!!

His neighbors, upon hearing the news, came to congratulate him. “What good luck you have. Not only did your horse return, but he brought with him 20 more. Such a lucky man you are!”

“Who is to say whether it’s good or bad- All I know is my horse has come home along with 20 wild horses- and leave it at that.” Again, his neighbors shook their heads and scoffed - “Of course it’s good luck you old fool! Twenty new horses is obviously good luck!”

The next week the farmer’s son was out riding in the pen with the new horses, fell off and broke his leg. Upon hearing the news, the neighbors came over to comfort the farmer. “You were right- Those wild horses were not a sign of good fortune- now your son has broken his leg- and right before the harvest. Such bad luck!”

Again the farmer replied- “Why do you constantly want to label something as good or bad. Why can’t you just say, “My son has broken his leg while riding a horse and leave it at that. Who is to say whether it is good or bad?”

Upon hearing this, the neighbors were indignant- ” Listen old man, to have your son break his leg at this time is unfortunate and a sign of bad luck. You are such a fool to think otherwise.”

The following week, an army came to town and drafted all the eligible young men, and sent them off to war in a far away place. They did not take the farmer’s son on account of his broken leg. Afterwards, the people were heartbroken and came to the farmer in tears- You were right- our sons are gone, we’ll probably never see them again- such bad luck our town has experienced!.

The old farmer (again) said- ”Why do you continue to insist an event is good or bad? We do not know the end from the beginning. Why can’t you just say, Our sons have been drafted, and only time will tell if it is good or not.
_________________________
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#33991 - 04/18/10 06:33 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Revlgking Offline
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ABOUT HIGGS BOSON (2005 VERSION)
http://www.exploratorium.edu/origins/cern/ideas/higgs.html

Do we understand what is the practical value of the above information? Not yet. And, BTW, we do not have the latest info on what the LHC is producing, yet.
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#33993 - 04/19/10 01:23 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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For some reason this thread invokes memories of the following story:
http://www.rusbasan.com/Humor/Answering_Machine.html

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#34009 - 04/20/10 12:25 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Ellis Offline
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FF--- That's hilarious!!! I do hope it is genuine!

However there is a serious point too. At what stage would we stop as we realise that we were in fact talking to an 'invisible friend', and a mechanical one at that!

No I was wrong-- nothing serious--it's just hilarious!

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#34010 - 04/20/10 01:45 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Ellis]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Ellis ... it is like that ... or, say, like a $cientologist arguing with a Moonie ... or ...

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#34084 - 04/25/10 11:35 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Revlgking Offline
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FF, because I love jokes, please let all of us in on this one. Seriously! What is the joke?


Edited by Revlgking (04/26/10 02:49 AM)
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G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#34404 - 05/17/10 08:03 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
Warren Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 45
Loc: Paducah, Kentucky
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Warren, let's bring up this thread by Socratus:

And thanks from your essay from which I quote
Originally Posted By: Warren "...Actually we do know there was not--nor is, an exclusive, eternal nothingness--a complete and absolute nothingness, which is void of energy or change, time or space. Such a nothingness would have precluded our existence. There must have been something more. The problem is where did existence come from?..."
Pardon my edit of your quote. http://www.unitheist.org/cosmogony.html are one and the same?


Thank you for reading and commenting on this. I had already pretty much decided, like you I think, that the question, "Does God exist?" is meaningless in a way. Better would be, "What is the nature of being, or divine creative energy, or what some call God?"

I ended up as seeing the divine as entirely natural, working through and in the natural world. This left the question though of why there is anything. We think of things resulting from other things, so where did the first thing come from? The article you refer to was my effort to try to work through that problem. I'm sure it will be a continuing subject of interest, as it is one of the greatest questions confronting humanity.

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#34642 - 05/31/10 02:04 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Samantha]
haidi marian
Unregistered


I think it's great!

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#34648 - 05/31/10 05:07 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: ]
Warren Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 45
Loc: Paducah, Kentucky
If you're referring to my article haidi, thank you!

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#34688 - 06/02/10 03:11 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Warren]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
The problem is where did existence come from?...
/ Warren, Revlgking . . . . . etc /
==================.
Physicists do not dictate to Nature their laws
Laws of nature are reality, which exists independently
from the researcher. Therefore Einstein wrote:
In the Science the man has freedom to solve
well made crossword
And Copernicus, Kepler, Newton, Maxwell, Planck,
Einstein and others only discovered
formulas and laws 0f the Nature

On my opinion, if we find the source of Universe
and then going step by step we can describe Genesis
and the place of God in this process

Now we have three ( 3) sources of the Universe:
Big bang , vacuum and God.
Which of them is correct ?

About big band and god my opinion is:
the action, when the God compressed all Universe
into his palm, physicists had named -a singular point
And action, when the God opened his palm,
physicists had named - the Big Bang

My opinion on vacuum I explain in the scheme :
Fundamental Theory 0f Existence:
1 The infinite vacuum T=0K
2 The particle: C/D = pi, R/N= k , E = Mc^2 = kc^2 , h = 0 , i^2= -1
3 The spins: h =E/t , h =kb, h* = h/2pi
4 The photon, the inertia
5 The electron: e^2 = h*ca, E = h*f , electromagnetic field
6 The gravitation, the star, the time
7 The proton
8 The atom(s)
9 The cell(s)
10 The Laws
a) The Law of conservation and transformation energy/mass
b) The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle / Law
c) The Pauli Exclusion Principle/ Law
11 The test
==========.
Everybody can check and explain why the number 1
or any another is wrong.
=======.
Best wishes.
Israel Sadovnik Socratus
=========================.

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#35878 - 08/29/10 04:39 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
From young years we know that God is something Absolute.
Nothing concrete in detail.
But what is Physics opinion about Absolute?
Max Planck explained that there are absolute in the Physics:
a) The Law of conservation and transformation energy.
b) The negative 4D continuum.
c) The speed of light quanta.
d) The maximum entropy which is possible at temperature
of Absolute zero: T=0K.

On my opinion these Planck absolute parameters
are good basis of understand the God and His Genesis.
====
Israel Socratus

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#35888 - 08/31/10 02:41 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
Originally Posted By: socratus

d) The maximum entropy which is possible at temperature
of Absolute zero: T=0K.


From http://crab.rutgers.edu/~maslen/Courses/PChemII/5_Second_Law/SecondLaw_totex.pdf

The third law of thermodynamics states
"The entropy of a perfect crystal is zero at absolute zero."
(So I think you mean "minimum entropy" above.)



Edited by TheFallibleFiend (08/31/10 02:43 AM)

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#35916 - 09/02/10 01:10 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Just barging in here--I apologise if you feel it is bad manners!

Socratus-- Why would laws a) to d) be "a good basis of understand (sic) the God and his Genesis" and not just Planck's absolute parameters? Are you arguing that there is a limit to infinity and if so it is god? That's what you sound like to me. Maybe absolute parameters are just that, and they have no divine intent.

If however, you believe that this is where god exists then he/she/it is there for you, that is where your god concept will be, as the evidence for the existence of 'god' lies in the faith of the believer.

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#36688 - 11/24/10 05:18 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Ellis]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Originally Posted By: Ellis

Socratus-- Why would laws a) to d) be "a good basis
of understand (sic) the God and his Genesis"
and not just Planck's absolute parameters?

My opinion about these ‘just Planck's absolute parameters’
#
Max Planck. "Scientific Autobiography".
==.
I have reread the Planck’s article "Scientific Autobiography".
It is a small article of 10 pages, but how honesty and modest,
wise and beautiful it is.
I cannot give a whole deep explanation of this article,
therefore I will concentrate attention on a small part of it.
1.
In the beginning Planck wrote, that " From young years....
the search of the laws, concerning to something absolute,
seemed to me the most wonderful task in scientist’s life."
And after some pages Planck wrote again, that
" the search for something absolute seemed to me the
most wonderful task for a researcher."
And after some pages Planck wrote again, that
“ the most wonderful scientific task for me was
searching of something absolute."
2.
And as for the relation between “relativity and absolute”
Planck wrote, that the fact of "relativity assumes the
existence of something absolute" ;
"the relativity has sense when something absolute resists it.”
Planck wrote that the phrase " all is relative " misleads us,
because it is nonsense, because there is something
absolute in SRT.
And the most attractive thing in SRT was for Planck
“to find something absolute that was hidden in its foundation.”
3.
And than Planck explained what there is absolute
in the physics:
a) The Law of conservation and transformation energy.
b) The negative 4D continuum.
c) The speed of light quanta.
d) The maximum entropy which is possible
at temperature of absolute zero: T=0K.
4.
My conclusion.
Dear Planck, if you live now many scientists
will consider you are a crazy man.
Many of them will not give you a hand.
Many of them will laugh at you.
Why?
Because you were convinced in existing of something Absolute.
Because you searched for Absolute all your life long.
And now it is forbidden to think about Absolute .
Now the search for absolute laws and objects
in Nature disappeared from the scientist’s brain.
Now the scientists say : " There isn't an absolute frame,
There isn't an absolute speed. There is nothing Absolute.
Everything is relativity. All is comparatively."
You wrote:
"A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing
its opponents and making them see the light, but rather
because its opponents eventually die, and
a new generation grows up that is familiar with it."
How pity it is.
I want to hope that this sentence isn’t absolutely correct.
==========.
So.
I take these four Planck’s absolute parameters
======================.
a) The Law of conservation and transformation energy.
b) The negative 4D continuum.
c) The speed of light quanta.
d) The maximum entropy which is possible
at temperature of absolute zero: T=0K.
======================.
as a basis and say.
Can God be explained by Physical formulas and laws?
I think ‘ Yes’ , we can understand God’s Nature by Physical
formulas and laws. I think God has given to us everything
that necessary to understand Him and His Genesis using
Physical Laws and Formulas.
========.
Best wishes
Israel Sadovnik Socratus
============.

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#36811 - 12/10/10 04:11 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: socratus
Laws of nature are reality, which exists independently from the researcher.


Can we be any more sure that laws of nature have independent existence, than, for example, electrons?
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#36923 - 12/30/10 04:25 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Alfred Tennyson, 1809-1892


HIGHER PANTHEISM

The sun, the moon, the stars, the seas, the hills and the plains --
Are not these, O Soul, the Vision of Him who reigns?

Is not the Vision He? tho' He be not that which He seems?
Dreams are true while they last, and do we not live in dreams?

Earth, these solid stars, this weight of body and limb,
Are they not sign and symbol of thy division from Him?

Dark is the world to thee: thyself art the reason why;
For is He not all but thou, that hast power to feel 'I am I'?

Glory about thee, without thee; and thou fulfillest thy doom,
Making Him broken gleams, and a stifled splendour and gloom.

Speak to Him thou for He hears, and Spirit with Spirit can meet --
Closer is He than breathing, and nearer than hands and feet.

God is law, say the wise; O Soul, and let us rejoice,
For if He thunder by law the thunder is yet His voice.

Law is God, say some: no God at all, says the fool;
For all we have power to see is a straight staff bent in a pool;

And the ear of man cannot hear, and the eye of man cannot see;
But if we could see and hear, this Vision -- were it not He?

=========000000=========
IMO, Tennyson was a PAN EN THEIST or UNTHEIST
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#36924 - 12/30/10 05:29 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Alfred Tennyson, 1809-1892

HIGHER PANTHEISM

Law is God, say some: no God at all, says the fool;

Law is God, say some: no God at all, says the fool;
/ Alfred Tennyson, 1809-1892 /
==.
Law is God, say some:
Which Law(s) ?
Law(s) of Nature.
Is the material Nature a God?
No.
But the Laws that manage the material Nature
have spiritual basis.
About which spiritual basis are you talking, Socratus?
#
The God said in the darkness:
Let there be light: and there was light.
So, the light - the Quantum of Light is spiritual basis for Nature.
But . . .
But to be correct we must say that we have three conceptions:
God, darkness and light (Quantum of Light).
So, to understand Nature we must examine three conceptions:
God, darkness and light (Quantum of Light).
1
In the darkness it means in the spacetime of dark mass/ energy.
The spacetime of dark mass/ energy it means in the Vacuum.
The Vacuum is the Infinite/ Eternal Homogeneous Space
of the lowest ( the background ) level of Energy: E= 0.
The Vacuum is the Infinite/ Eternal Homogeneous Space
of the lowest ( the background ) level of temperature: T= 0K.
2.
The God is hidden into the Infinite/ Eternal Homogeneous
Energy Space and we don’t know that to say about Him/ Her/ It.
But we know, that according to Quantum Physics a virtual
energetic particles can exist in this Infinite/ Eternal
Homogeneous Energy Space.
So, we can suppose that, maybe, from these virtual energetic
particles the God created light/ Quantum of light.
3.
So, in the beginning God created the Light.
How did He do it?
The Bible explain us that the God created the light very easy.
God simply said: ‘Let there be light: and there was light.’
And for many years everybody adopted this convincing proof
without any doubt.
Only poor Einstein had doubts. He wrote sadly :
‘ All these fifty years of conscious brooding have brought me
no nearer to the answer to the question, 'What are light quanta?'
Nowadays every Tom, Dick and Harry thinks he knows it,
but he is mistaken. ‘
But Tom, Dick and Harry laughed.
‘What cannot the old Jew understand?’ they said bewilder.
‘ Isn’t clear that quantum of light is a simply wave-particle,
of course, simultaneously ?’
. . . . .
And now one part of mankind ( Religious part ) believes that
God created the light in very easy way.
And the other part of mankind ( Scientific part ) believes that
the light is the quantum of light which simply has his own
wave-particle abilities, of course, simultaneously.

These two great Mystical beliefs govern on the planet Earth
without understand each other. This is situation that we have now.
===============================.
Best wishes.
Israel Sadovnik Socratus
==============.

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#36929 - 12/30/10 10:16 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: socratus

Law is God, say some:
Which Law(s)?
Law(s) of Nature. Is the material Nature a God?
No. But the Laws that manage the material Nature
have spiritual basis.
I can accept the last point you make. Then you add
Quote:
About which spiritual basis are you talking, Socratus?
So I will assume that you, Soc, are having a dialogue with yourself here, right? In asking this question I just want to make sure I am hearing what you are saying; I am not questioning your method.

You go on:
Quote:
The God said in the darkness:
Let there be light: and there was light.

So, the light - the Quantum of Light is spiritual basis for Nature.

But . . . But to be correct we must say that we have three conceptions:

God, darkness and light (Quantum of Light).
So, to understand Nature we must examine three conceptions:

God, darkness and light (Quantum of Light).

1 In the darkness it means in the space-time of dark mass/ energy.

The spacetime of dark mass/ energy it means in the Vacuum.

The Vacuum is the Infinite/ Eternal Homogeneous Space
of the lowest ( the background ) level of Energy: E= 0.

The Vacuum is the Infinite/ Eternal Homogeneous Space
of the lowest ( the background ) level of temperature: T=0K.

2. The God is hidden into the Infinite/ Eternal Homogeneous Energy Space and we don’t know that to say about Him/ Her/ It.
Me? I prefer to think about the god-idea, or concept, as a majestic IT--that is, as imminent and transcendent being. Why? Because this helps me avoid thinking of god as an idol-like 'it' limited to space and time.

ATHEISTS/AGNOSTICS: Do not feel left out. If you like being good, moral and humane beings, just add an extra 'O' to the word 'god'. It is also OK to call GOD, reality or nature. Deeds, not creeds, are what important, don't you agree?

As I have said before, the two acronyms I like to use are G0D and GOD--G zero D. G0D symbolizes Imminent-being (that is, god in me, as a modern person) and GOD is for Transcendent-Being (that is, god into which the physical cosmos is expanding-- (

By the way, the first two chapters of the Bible uses two words--YAHWEH (G0D) and ELOHIM (GOD). Modern Orthodox Jews, when they write in English, use G-d and Adonai.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that you write 'God' as if you prefer to think of the god-idea as a person, a him--in the modern sense of the word.

For example, when you write--:
Quote:
3. So, in the beginning God created the Light. How did He do it? The Bible explain us that the God created the light very easy. God simply said: ‘Let there be light: and there was light.’And for many years everybody adopted this convincing proof without any doubt.
--what else can anyone think?
===================
BTW, I presume you are aware that the Latin word, PERSONA (meaning to speak or to sound (SONA) through (PER) a mask) was--and often still is--used in drama, theology, and the law.
==============================
You say that,
Quote:
Only poor Einstein had doubts. He wrote sadly: "All these fifty years of conscious brooding have brought me no nearer to the answer to the question, what are light quanta?"
But theologically speaking, as I read what he said, Einstein had no faith in a personal god--a person up there, or out there--an all-powerful being who listens to and answers all our prayers. But he never accepted the idea of atheism. Rather he respected the god-idea of Spinoza, who was a PAN EN THEIST, like I am. IMO, others gave him the mistaken label, PANTHEIST--all things make up who god is.

BTW, Soc: Do attend and support any kind of religion? Do you say your prayers?

Me? I respect all religions that are Golden-Rule based and eschew all kinds of bigotry--religions that help and inspire people to be truly humane to themselves and to others.

Born in 1930, I am a retired--I prefer to think of myself as re-directed (1994) minister of the United Church of Canada. I prefer to wear out, not rust out. smile

When the UCC was established in 1925, June 10--the first meeting was held in a hockey arena, in Toronto-- the founders seriously debated about calling the new church--a union of Presbyterians, Methodists, Congregationalists and others--The Uniting Church of Canada. I now wish they had been so bold. Maybe, before I wear out I will test the waters and see if we can revisit that truly great, catholic, orthodox and protestant idea. Note, I used no caps.

LET'S HAVE SOME FUN WITH THE FOLLOWING--feel free to tell me: You, LGK, are nuts:
=================
KEEP IN MIND THAT THE FOLLOWING IS OFFERED SIMPLY AS MY OPINION--no dogma is intended.
=============================================
However, this time here is what I would like to propose: It is a personal idea that is totally inclusive:

Let us see if there is any interest, out there, in establishing a totally INCLUSIVE AND UNITING kind of RELIGION OF THE UNIVERSE (IA & UROTU--I am & you are of the universe). This concept of religion is based on a simple simple kind of theology. It is as follows: G0D is, and if we so choose it, GOD is the potential Love available in us. G0D/GOD is love in action.

In other words, GOD is the potential Love available in the universe. It is available to all who choose to live by, and act on, the Golden Rule.

Here I leave lots of room for posters to use their imagination: What are your ideas about what, if any, are, for you, appropriate doctrines, rituals and polity.

Again I say: LET US HAVE FUN WITH ALL THIS. Yes, it is OK to mock as long as you give your reasons ... OK, away you go!
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#36932 - 12/31/10 04:51 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

But theologically speaking, as I read what he said,
Einstein had no faith in a personal god--a person up there,
or out there--an all-powerful being who listens to and
answers all our prayers. But he never accepted the idea of atheism.
Rather he respected the god-idea of Spinoza,
who was a PAN EN THEIST, like I am.

Einstein: Religion and Personal God.

Einstein had different opinions about Religion .
a)Sometime he thought that God is a Cosmic Universal Intellect.
b) Sometime he did not believe in a personal god.
c) Sometime he did believe in a personal god:

From the Book: “ Ideas and opinions by Albert Einstein”
Edited by Carl Seeling. 1996. Part: About religion. /

Page 46.
“The situation may be expressed by an image:
Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
Though I have asserted above that in truth a legitimate conflict
between religion and science cannot exist “

Page 47.
“The main source of the present-day conflicts between the spheres
of religion and of science lies in this concept of a personal God.”

Page 48
“ To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with
natural events could never be refuted, in the real sense, by science,
for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which
scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot.”

Page 48.
“…. , teachers of religion must have the stature to give up
the doctrine of a personal God,… “

“ After religious teachers accomplish the refining process indicated
they will surely recognize with joy that true religion has been
ennobled and made more profound by scientific knowledge.”

Page 49.
“ And so it seems to me that science not only purifies the religious
impulse of the dross of its anthropomorphism but also contributes
to a religious spiritualization of our understanding of life.”

/Source: Science, Philosophy and Religion.
A Symposium, published by the Conference on
Science, Philosophy and Religion in Their
Relation to the Democratic Way of Life,
Inc., New York, 1941./

d)
Sometime he said respectful words about the Bible.
Sometime Einstein said: Bible is 'childish'.
A letter in which Albert Einstein dismissed the idea of God
as the product of human weakness and the Bible as "pretty childish"
has sold at auction for more than $400,000.
======= . .
#
All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree.
/ Albert Einstein /

Which tree?
Socratus.

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#36933 - 12/31/10 08:05 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Originally Posted By: Revlgking [/quote

I prefer to think about the god-idea, or concept,
as a majestic IT--that is, as imminent and transcendent being.

G0D symbolizes Imminent-being
(that is, god in me, as a modern person)
and GOD is for Transcendent-Being
(that is, god into which the physical cosmos is expanding--

Can ‘transcendent being’ be explain with formulas?

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#36934 - 12/31/10 08:11 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that
you write 'God' as if you prefer to think of the god-idea
as a person, a him--in the modern sense of the word.

Where you see ‘the god-idea as a person’ ?
The Genesis.:
1. The infinite/ energy vacuum: T=0K,
2. The particle: C/D = pi, R/N= k , E = Mc^2 = kc^2 , h = 0 , i^2= -1
3. The spins: h =E/t , h =kb, h* = h/2pi ,
4. The photon, the inertia,
5. The electron: e^2 = h*ca, E = h*f , electromagnetic field
6. The gravitation, the star/ planet, the time,
7. The proton,
8. The atom(s),
9. The cell(s),
10. The Laws:
a) The Law of conservation and transformation energy/mass
b) The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle / Law
c) The Pauli Exclusion Principle/ Law
11. The test.
Every theory must be tested logically ( theoretical ) and practically
a) Theory : Dualism of Consciousness: (consciousness/ subconsciousness)
b) Practice : Parapsychology . Meditation
============================.
Socratus

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#36935 - 12/31/10 08:20 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Quote by Heinrich Hertz on Maxwell's equations:
"One cannot escape the feeling that these mathematical formulae
have an independent existence and an intelligence of their own,
that they are wiser than we are, wiser even than their discoverers,
that we get more out of them than was originally put into them."
===========

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#36944 - 01/01/11 06:47 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Originally Posted By: socratus
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

But theologically speaking, as I read what he said,
Einstein had no faith in a personal god--a person up there,
or out there--an all-powerful being who listens to and
answers all our prayers. But he never accepted the idea of atheism.
Rather he respected the god-idea of Spinoza,
who was a PAN EN THEIST, like I am.

Einstein: Religion and Personal God.

Einstein had different opinions about Religion .
a)Sometime he thought that God is a Cosmic Universal Intellect.
b) Sometime he did not believe in a personal god.
c) Sometime he did believe in a personal god:

From the Book: “ Ideas and opinions by Albert Einstein”
Edited by Carl Seeling. 1996. Part: About religion. /

Page 46.
“The situation may be expressed by an image:
Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
Though I have asserted above that in truth a legitimate conflict
between religion and science cannot exist “

Page 47.
“The main source of the present-day conflicts between the spheres
of religion and of science lies in this concept of a personal God.”

Page 48
“ To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with
natural events could never be refuted, in the real sense, by science,
for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which
scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot.”

Page 48.
“…. , teachers of religion must have the stature to give up
the doctrine of a personal God,… “

“ After religious teachers accomplish the refining process indicated
they will surely recognize with joy that true religion has been
ennobled and made more profound by scientific knowledge.”

Page 49.
“ And so it seems to me that science not only purifies the religious
impulse of the dross of its anthropomorphism but also contributes
to a religious spiritualization of our understanding of life.”

/Source: Science, Philosophy and Religion.
A Symposium, published by the Conference on
Science, Philosophy and Religion in Their
Relation to the Democratic Way of Life,
Inc., New York, 1941./

d)
Sometime he said respectful words about the Bible.
Sometime Einstein said: Bible is 'childish'.
A letter in which Albert Einstein dismissed the idea of God
as the product of human weakness and the Bible as "pretty childish"
has sold at auction for more than $400,000.
======= . .
#
All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree.
/ Albert Einstein /

Which tree?
Socratus.


"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and
product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable,
but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish.
No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. <...>
For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of
the most childish superstitions."
/ A. Einstein, from a letter to Eric Gutkind /
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...ience.religion

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#36945 - 01/01/11 06:53 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
[quote=socratus]Quote by Heinrich Hertz on Maxwell's equations:
"One cannot escape the feeling that these mathematical formulae
have an independent existence and an intelligence of their own,
that they are wiser than we are, wiser even than their discoverers,
that we get more out of them than was originally put into them."
=========
"that we get more out of them than was originally put into them."

Put into them? By Whom?
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#36946 - 01/01/11 01:53 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
[quote=socratus]Quote by Heinrich Hertz on Maxwell's equations:
"One cannot escape the feeling that these mathematical formulae
have an independent existence and an intelligence of their own,
that they are wiser than we are, wiser even than their discoverers,
that we get more out of them than was originally put into them."
=========
"that we get more out of them than was originally put into them."

Put into them? By Whom?

Put into them? By Whom?
#
What can be ‘ Put into them? ‘ / put into formulas./
In my opinion it means that in every formula is hidden some idea.
If we cannot understand this idea - formula then it is wiser than we are.
And if we want be wiser than formula we must understand the idea
which is hidden in formula.
#
By Whom?
? ? ?
? ?
?
========.

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#36950 - 01/02/11 05:44 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: socratus
... Einstein: Religion and Personal God.

Einstein had different opinions about Religion.

a)Sometime he thought that God is a Cosmic Universal Intellect.

b) Sometime he did not believe in a personal god.

c) Sometime he did believe in a personal god:

===============================================
Socratus, it is not surprising that Einstein, like most of us human beings (except me, of course wink ) was, also like most of us, the normal human and fallible kind of person, especially in matters having to do with philosophy, theology and the like.

And I would add: Like one of the threads in this forum suggests: Einstein was also fallible as a physicist and not without other faults.
========================
For what it is worth, and without going into details as to why I do, I offer the following belief: G0D is personal in and through us--when we choose to do--and actually do--what we sincerely feel is the good, true and the right thing to do. More on this in a future post.

Meanwhile, I know many are thinking:

O come now, Rev! Every tin pot tyrant--self-appointed (Hitler? Stalin? Franco? Peron?) and/or otherwise (Nixon? Bush?)--responsible for much pain, suffering and the deaths of any number of people often justify their actions by thinking--even believing and saying: I did it for the greatest good of our country, and for the best people in it. History will thank me for what I did. Some will say: I did what I did because, after much prayer, God gave me his guidance and the power to win a victory for him (Cromwell?). Yes, I know this.

I also know that many dictators, like Franco, Stalin and Mao, actually lived long and prosperous lives. They died at home and were honoured and loved by many. not all tyrants ended their lives the way Napoleon, Hitler and the like did, in ignomy.

On the other hand, there were those like Lincoln, the Kennedys, Gandhi and others, who were cut down by the bullets of assassins long before their time.

I ALSO AGREE, LIFE AS WE KNOW IT, DOES NOT ALWAYS SEEM TO BE FAIR, not just for the famous, but for many ordinary people as well.

For example, I am the seventh child of a family of eight--five boys and three girls. Now, my younger sister and I are the last in the family. At the time of our birth, our father was in his 50's and our mother was in her late 40's. This meant that there was a ten-year gap between us and our next older brother.

He and all the older siblings of my sister and I are now gone. All of them, including our parents, suffered from a real lack of education. Looking back I now realize that they had a standard of living which was way below what my sister and I have enjoyed. The same was, and still is, true for many. Life is not fair, it just is. I often ask myself, why is this so?

It is no wonder that, life being what it is, both on a general level and on the local, has caused many people over the years to opt for atheism.

Obviously a strong belief in the existence of the kind of all-powerful, father-like and and loving 'god' of monotheism--a god who personally hears and answers all our prayers--is becoming more and more difficult a concept for modern minds to accept.

Sure, I respect the sincerely held opinions and beliefs of others, especially the opinions of those who value the common good. I also include the right to change ones mind. I give this right to others and I expect others to give me the same right.

Socratus, thanks for bringing all this information--conflicts and all-- together.
===========

From the Book: "Ideas and opinions by Albert Einstein"
Edited by Carl Seeling. 1996. Part: About religion.

Page 46.

“The situation may be expressed by an image:
Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. Though I have asserted above that in truth a legitimate conflict between religion and science cannot exist."

Would that this was always true. But of course we know that, alas, because too often there is such a thing as blind faith and the uncharitable use of scientific knowledge conflicts do exist.

But, as the poet Alexander Pope put it in his poem, Essay on Man:

"Hope springs eternal in the human breast;
Man never Is, but always To be blest:
The soul, uneasy and confin'd from home,
Rests and expatiates in a life to come.

An Essay on Man, Epistle I, 1733
=================
Of course the kind of lively hope we all need is not the false and shallow kind, but one that is grounded in a rational faith. Most of all, we need a hope based on a non-sentimental kind of agape-love--one that is patient, kind, true and enduring.




Edited by Revlgking (01/02/11 05:56 AM)
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#36951 - 01/02/11 06:05 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
socratus Offline
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Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Dear Mr. Revlgking
Thank you for kindly post
Israel
===========.
Physics and Metaphysics.

John Polkinghorne and his book ‘ Quantum theory’.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Polkinghorne
=== .
#
I like to read his books because they raise many questions.
And these questions give information for brain to think.
John Polkinghorne took epigraph of his book ‘ Quantum theory’
the Feynman’s thought : ‘ I think I can safely say that
nobody understands quantum mechanics. ‘
Why?
Because, he wrote:
‘ ,we do not understand the theory as fully as we should.
We shall see in what follows that important interpretative
issues remain unresolved. They will demand for their
eventual settlement not only physical insight but also
metaphysical decision ’.
/ preface/
‘ Serious interpretative problems remain unresolved,
and these are the subject of continuing dispute’
/ page 40/
‘ If the study of quantum physics teaches one anything,
it is that the world is full of surprises’
/ page 87 /
‘ Metaphysical criteria that the scientific community take
very seriously in assessing the weight to put on a theory
include: . . . .’
/ page 88 /
‘Quantum theory is certainly strange and surprising, . . .’
/ page92 /
‘ Wave / particle duality is a highly surprising and
instructive phenomenon, . .’
/ page 92 /

Togetherness.
John Polkinghorne, as a realist, want to know
‘ what the physical world is actually like’, but until now
physicists don’t have the whole picture of Universe.
And in my opinion John Polkinghorne was right writing
what to understand the problems of creating the Universe:
‘ They will demand for their eventual settlement not only
physical insight but also metaphysical decision ’.
#
So, maybe, Aristotle was right separating the knowledge of Nature:
on two parts: Physics and Metaphysics.
=== .
Best wishes.
Israel Sadovnik Socratus.

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#36953 - 01/02/11 11:28 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
Revlgking Offline
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Dear Israel Sadovnik Socratus, thanks.

Tell us more about who you are, and what makes you who you are.
What is your expertise?

Was the original quantum a particle? Or was it pure energy? I suspect the latter.
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#36957 - 01/03/11 03:08 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
Bill S. Offline
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Originally Posted By: socratus
"One cannot escape the feeling that these mathematical formulae have an independent existence and an intelligence of their own, that they are wiser than we are, wiser even than their discoverers, that we get more out of them than was originally put into them."


If one commits fully to the idea of an infinite cosmos, then these mathematical formulae, their discoverers, their users and everyone and everything else share a complete oneness. The apparent distinction comes about only as a result of our incomplete perception of infinity.
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#37018 - 01/09/11 06:32 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Bill S.]
socratus Offline
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Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
There are many meaning of the word ‘ Religion’.
What is Religion for me?
#
Book ‘ The pushcart prize, III:
Best of the small presses.
From a journey through the land of Israel.
By Pinchas Saden. Pages 132-133 ‘

‘ To be religious, in my terms, means to understand that
life is a parable of which God is the meaning – that is,
to live life as a struggle to make contact with the divine.
. . . .
– in other words, by the drying up of the previously
renewable source of human contact with God.
. . . . . .
There can be no other significance to life beside worshiping Him.
The rest is simple a question of how one understands this worship –
- that is, of how one understands God.
Worshiping God, as the phrase suggests*, has nothing to do with
pleasure or cultural frills. It is work, hard work, like paving a road,
or farming land, or building a house.
In general, I don’t believe that the purpose of life in this world is
to snatch a little pleasure here or there. If it were, we might as
well have been born bedbugs. In whatever we live and do – in our
happiness, our suffering, our love, our hate, our passions,
our thoughts – we must live and do it not just for itself, but as
a parable, as a question, as a war. As work. As worship.
What is man? Man is question. God is answer.
If the answer were available here, in this life, the question
would be unnecessary. The painful tension between the two
gives life its energy.’
=====================. .
/ * In Hebrew the word for ‘ Worship’ avoda,
is the same as the word for ‘ work’. Translator./
========.

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#37023 - 01/09/11 09:10 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
Bill S. Offline
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Quote:
If it were, we might as well have been born bedbugs.


Of course, there are those who believe we might have been bedbugs in a former life, or might be in time to come.
Tot homines quot sententiae!!
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#37029 - 01/10/11 12:29 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
Revlgking Offline
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WHAT DOES THE WORD 'RELIGION' MEAN, TO ME? WHEN I SAY, "I AM RELIGIOUS" WHAT AM I TELLING YOU?
=================================SOCRATUS, YOU TELL ME:
Originally Posted By: socratus
There are many meanings of the word 'Religion’.
What is Religion, for me?

Book, A Journey through the land of Israel,
By Pinchas Saden. Pages 132-133

To be religious, in my terms, means to understand that
life is a parable of which God is the meaning – that is,
to live life as a struggle to make contact with the divine.
...
In whatever we live and do – in our happiness, our suffering, our love, our hate, our passions, our thoughts – we must live and do it not just for itself, but as a parable, as a question, as a war. As work. As worship.

What is man? Man is the question. God is the answer.

If the answer were available here, in this life, the question would be unnecessary. The painful tension between the two gives life its energy.’
==============================

/ * In Hebrew the word for ‘ Worship’ avoda, is the same as the word for ‘ work’. Translator./
========.
Socratus, does this mean that, in Hebrew, 'work' is the same as worship? BTW, how well do you speak Hebrew.

Perhaps you are saying that 'work' and 'worship'ought to be one and the same. Are you?

WHAT,for me, RELIGION IS NOT
============================
Religion, for me? First of all, here is what I think, feel, and believe religion is NOT. Religion is not a physical thing. It cannot be counted, weighed and measured in a science laboratory.

In this sense, the word 'religion' has a lot in common with faith, hope, love, grace, the way you feel about yourself and your family, and the like--all of which can be summed up in two words:

1.G0D (imminent Being, in you and me) and
2.GOD (transcendent Being, in which we live, move, and have our beings as individuals).

Interestingly, the ancient Hebrews--the ancestors of many of us--had two words for what we call 'God'. Whoever wrote Genesis, used two words for 'God': ELOHIM (the power) and YAHWEH (I am who I am and choose to be).

Linguists tell us that, in the very first verse of the Bible, we have what is known as a "majestic plural".

In Genesis 1, 'God' is called ELOHIM--The 'IM' simply makes ELOH into a plural. That is, it pluralizes it. This serves the same purpose as the 's' in English. It also makes it like what we call a proper noun--the King, not just a king. Pluralizing in Hebrew, gives the noun status.

THE CHALLENGE OF TRANSLATION
============================
Use your imagination here : How on earth did our ancients ancestors--the ancient Greeks, Romans, Anglo Saxons, Franks, Scandinavians, Russians, Slavs, Persians, Chinese, Japanese ... you name it ... How did they ever get meanings across from one culture to another?

Scientists!!! We need your help. Is there such a s thing as a science of translation?
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#37037 - 01/10/11 01:59 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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A REVISED VERSION OF WHAT I SAID:
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
WHAT DOES THE WORD 'RELIGION' MEAN, TO ME? WHEN I SAY, "I AM RELIGIOUS" WHAT AM I TELLING YOU?
==================================================
The concept of 'religion' has a lot in common with the concepts of faith, hope, love, grace, the way we feel about self, family, neighbours, friends, others, including those we perceive as enemies ...
But does this mean that religion, and the concepts we associate with it, is no importance and have no consequences--for better or for worse?

So my answer to the questions posed here: Of course religion is very important to billions of people. And it certainly does have consequences. Just read and listen to the media, anytime.

Our religion is what we believe about things, seen and unseen, and what we do about them on a day to day basis.

IMO, every truly human person has a religion. Some kinds of religions do, and have done, a lot of good; some do a lot of harm and some are just plain boring.

Now it is your turn.
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#37041 - 01/10/11 06:31 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
Bill S. Offline
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I think there are at least two problems attached to the use of the word "religion".

1. In many people's minds, it is associated with bigotry, insularity and even hatred. It is easy to forget the good, and remember the bad, especially when, almost every day, the news carries stories that re-enforce the idea that even in the 21st century religions and evil are closely associated, and not necessarily because they are locked together in combat.

2. The concepts of God and religion are so closely associated that it is easy for atheists, for example, to attack religious practices and believe they are attacking God.
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#37046 - 01/10/11 11:34 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Bill S.]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
I think there are at least two problems attached to the use of the word "religion".

1. In many people's minds, it is associated with bigotry, insularity and even hatred....


Bill, you make an interesting point. If what you say is so, what I would like to know is this: How is 'religion' associated in your mind?
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#37326 - 02/04/11 09:32 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
Chasing Euphoria Offline
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Posts: 6
Maybe we are individual cells in prepubescent forms developing and learning together to one day form one consciousness and become one god. Break down the word religion and you find that relig means to be tied or to be bind. We are all bind to other people whatever religion, race, social class and gender we are by what we call the soul. Being conscientious is an integral part of spiritual growth which alleviates the wounds of the soul and a critical reason as to why one practices religion. The word religion is derived from the latin word religio which means to be conscientiousness. All religion has a way of purging the soul whether it be praying, confessing, fasting or etc. it is a focus in the concept of religion. Thus ridding the soul or cleansing may be a path to godhood. Mathematical formula, scientific theory, philosophy, religion, binging on drugs, alcohol and sex, petty crime, criminal enterprise, why one missed the number 34 bus by a sliver of a second; these questions and practices all share the common interest of purging the great unknown.

You can find out who, where, when, how and what gravity is but can never know why. Yes it has something to do with the gravitational force and the magnetic field surrounding the planet but why is it there? You can educated the masses answer their questions but can never answer why it is the way it is. This leads to the fact that each individual exists in the great unknown until death.

On another note would it be too hard to accept the fact that they're may have never been a god in the first place. What if everything fits in the right place if we want it to. What if our cognitive functions, our senses have been lying to us (would not be the first time mind you). These connections we make are mostly all in a abstract sense. When mathematics formula, scientific theory and philosophy in a sociological sense actually work in practice does not solve all the questions within the problem. One must ask why that specific equation or hypotheses? Would it be so hard to live if life had no meaning at all? Do the birds fly trying to achieve something or just to fly due being built the way it was? Does the wolf hunt the elk for the thrill of the kill or for sustenance? Does it wonder why he/she is a lone wolf or a member of a pack? Must we ask and accept as fact that god or another supreme being had to have created this world and placed a meaning behind it? Must we know who, what or where is god?

Would life get better or worse if we just accepted the fact that these coincidences and connection may just be in our head and how we perceive the world?


Edited by Chasing Euphoria (02/04/11 10:56 AM)

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#37329 - 02/04/11 04:04 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Chasing Euphoria]
Revlgking Offline
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GREAT QUESTIONS, CE!
MAY I OFFER SOME OPINIONS?

====================================
1. would it be too hard to accept the fact that there may have never been a god in the first place?

I agree with what you imply. In my [LGK's] opinion, In the beginning there was no-thing! There was just EL--the Hebrew root for pure, neutral energy--Omnipotence (all power) without conditions. The same is true for omnipresence (everywhere present), and omniscience (all knowledge). See Genesis 1:1.

2. What if everything fits in the right place, if we want it to.

AH! YES!!! The key word is 'want'--the power to will and choose, good or evil. Take note: YaHWeH (a sacred word never verbalized by Orthodox Jews)--in English, this is 'Jehovah'--I am, was and I choose to be what I love and will to be.


3. What if our cognitive functions, our senses have been lying to us (would not be the first time mind you)?

The EGO! WOW! what a villain! In my opinion, the EGO can be a great servant, but it can also be a very divisive and dangerous enemy. In a word, it can be satanic (which is Hebrew/Arabic in origin), or a diabolic (of Greek origin)force. Anything that splits us from the true self (pneuma) and others is diabolic.


4. These connections we make are mostly all in an abstract sense. When mathematics formulas, scientific theory and philosophy, in a sociological sense, actually work in practice does not solve all the questions within the problem.

One must ask why that specific equation or hypotheses?

5. Would it be so hard to live if life had no meaning at all?

I have a question for you: Are you implying that, for human beings, life has no meaning?

THE WILL TO MEANING
===================
Have you heard of logotherapy--the work of Viktor Frankl? http://www.google.ca/search?source=ig&am...amp;oq=victor+f


5. Do the birds fly trying to achieve something or just to fly due being built the way it was?

6. Does the wolf hunt the elk for the thrill of the kill or for sustenance?

7. Does it wonder why he/she is a lone wolf or a member of a pack?

So may I (LGK) ask: For you, are human beings and animal beings--including insect beings--identical beings? Are animals spiritual beings?

8. Must we ask, and accept as fact, that god or another supreme being had to have created this world and placed a meaning behind it?

I don't; but there are those who do. I often wonder, WHY?

9. Must we know who, what, or where is god?

For you, is 'god' a noun? Is God a proper noun?

Me? God and gods are mentally-created idols.

This is why I prefer the acronyms GOD and/or G0d. Questions like you ask about 'god'--are inappropriate ones. It is like asking: How far is up? Or, do streets and cars love one another?

Yes, it seems, there are crazy and dumb questions! In my opinion, that is smile



Edited by Revlgking (02/04/11 07:32 PM)
Edit Reason: Always a good idea!
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#37337 - 02/05/11 07:46 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
Chasing Euphoria Offline
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Registered: 02/04/11
Posts: 6
Why must we always categorize and label one as good, godly and holy while the other evil, satanic and blasphemy? Would our morality and ethics crumble and shutter if we rid the thin line between good and bad, the devil and angels, yin and yang, dark and light? Logic would have us believe in figures and numbers to show reason; it is the attitudes and belief that man can become better under GOD's tutelage. Passion and emotion WILLS us to connote certain actions and people as good or evil when in fact no will nor action ever encompass these connotation.

Meaning? What if your life's meaning was to make the other guy look good? To be compared, related and measured upon all others and to come out last. Where is the incentive to continue? Hope? Faith? Good will? To exist? The facts are most are in this category and only the few ever reach glory to the fact that the outside world affirms it to a major degree. So if your sole reason to exist was to make the someone else look better due to the relative cognitive functions of any average human why continue? To breed more of them? To find someone as miserable and pathetic as you?

Logotherapy... meaning is not something I seek for though I would like to thank you for leading me to the works of Viktor Frankl. If meaning was what I sought then I'd be in India or China visiting some Buddhist temple seeking the monk's tutelage.

My question is would civilization crumble if we rid the moralistic and ethical sections of society when most have come to terms that the system that is supposed to be enforcing these ideas and theories cannot be omnipresent, can easily be bought or miss the dire needs that can only alleviate when the damages have already been done?

To me this question is somewhat silly in that have we all confirmed to ourselves to a certain degree that GOD does exist whether in an abstract or physical sense.

Would some of you hate me if I considered myself a GOD when it comes to my decision and who or what effects me or I choose to keep around in my life? I know for a fact some would judge me harshly since they feel exclusion breeds hate and contempt amongst men and women but I have been excluded numerous times in the last twenty years. Must I feel guilty due to not caring and at times being a bit too cold and apathetic. Am I not who I am due to the world that was built and given to me. If I am a heartless, apathetic, unapologetic and crude is this an example of GOD's creation or my own? Free will or GOD?

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#37344 - 02/05/11 05:31 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Chasing Euphoria]
Revlgking Offline
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NAMESTE AND AGAPE, CE
=====================
I have no problem thinking of you, me and others as G0ds (John 10:34). IMO, the '0', zero, indicates that we are at the alpha point--the creation point--of Being.

At this alpha-point point we have the power to will and choose to be at-one-ment with GOD--the O indicates that there is an OMEGA of space. We can choose to be in tune with the total universe.

In my opinion, THERE IS NO FUN JUST BEING GOD

The problem I have with individuals wanting to be GOD is this:
I do not will or want to be GOD, because this would logically exclude all others. Greta Garbo famously said: "I want to be alone..."
Me? I do not want to be alone. I choose to be, and want to be in GOD--a member of a great family and community.
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#37352 - 02/05/11 10:54 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Maybe what it all boils down to is that, whereas people can exist without god, god cannot exist without people.

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#37361 - 02/06/11 08:47 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Ellis]
Chasing Euphoria Offline
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Correct me if I misunderstood your concept of GOD, RevikinG but are you implying that the universe is a sentience being like us?
That we are in a way just a small part of the universe like the cellular building blocks that are within us and function to keep us alive. If so, I can admit this is not the first time of hearing this concept of GOD for I too have thought of this in the past but a single question remains. Would the universe crumble if one single atom failed to commit and carry out it's job?

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#37387 - 02/08/11 06:18 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ellis
Maybe what it all boils down to is that, whereas people can exist without god, god cannot exist without people.
A G0d-like point, Ellis.

In my opinion, G+O+D, like Existence itself, cannot exist without all its components. We are components of GOD.

The freedom and choice we have is this: We can resist the opportunity--at our great loss, IMO. Or we can embrace it. Embracing GOD, or Existence, has nothing to do with the dogmas of dogmatic religions, churches.

The ministers of the church I attend are totally non-dogmatic, and non-judgmental, in their preaching. They simply ask people to meditate on the values of practicing the Golden Rule and the loving of life and existence. Any religion that tries to enforce the laws of love by the use of fear is a phony religion, a bad religion and not one that most theologians I know would recommend.

Interestingly, over half of the 10 commandments are covered by the laws of secular society, quite apart from religion. The moral laws are matters of the heart, not of the courts. Has anyone ever attacked the courts for practicing religion when they enforce the laws against killing, stealing, lying and the like?

BTW, has anyone checked how many hits there are on this thread + the one on philosophy of religion now? The number is now over 2,050,000 and growing by the day!


Edited by Revlgking (02/08/11 06:24 AM)
Edit Reason: Always good to do
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#37398 - 02/09/11 04:20 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia

'BTW, has anyone checked how many hits there are on this thread + the one on philosophy of religion now? The number is now over 2,050,000 and growing by the day!


Yes Rev-- I noticed this the other day and was oddly pleased that this particular discussion, controversial though it my be, has so far remained interesting and very civil!

Congratulations to us all!

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#37403 - 02/09/11 03:54 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
WITH ST.VALENTINE'S DAY IN MIND
===============================
Ellis, at 6 o'clock this morning, I picked up my National Post.com--Canada. I live near German Mills, in Thornhill ON--an old part of Markham, Ontario. It is near the famous Yonge Street--the longest S to N street in Canada, if not the world.

After the American Rebellion in 1776, lots of British Loyalists--many of them German born, came from Pennsylvania to Canada. My wife's ancestors--including Captain William Poole Turner--were Loyalists from New England, they settled on the beautiful St. John River, which rises in Maine. Thanks Yanks!!

Yankee Captain Turner settled near Hartland, N.B.--home of the World's longest-covered bridge. The bridge is still in use. It is north of the capital of N.B.,Fredericton--a low and level area, which is subject to Spring floods.

Thornhill actually is on a hill. It is just north and above Toronto. We love to look down on the city every Canadian, who is not a Torontonian, loves to twit--not to be confused with 'tweet'.Toronto, still the home of many churches--not as full as they used to be--used to be twitted as "Toronto the Good". My son and his family, I'll have you know, are Torontonians--They live in DAAAWN ...Don Mills--once a very tony area of metro. Still is ...well, somewhat.

From our house--on King's Inn Trail (Kong, believe it or not, is a neighbour) laugh --we can actually see the pinnacle half of the-once-famous CN Tower, which is near Lake Ontario.

As I picked up my paper, I noticed and nodded to Venus, the Roman goddess of love and beauty. There she was, framed by a beautiful, calm, clear and bluish-black sky.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus
The temperature was -10 degrees Celsius--a bright and beautiful cold day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_Star#Religion_and_Mythology

BTW, the National Post.com--an excellent read--is one of the three papers (+ the Globe&Mail and the Toronto Star) I usually check out to see how we so-called human beings are treating and loving--in the agape sense of the word (or not)--one another.

Then I checked:
http://www.scienceagogo.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=37398#Post37398
--and I noticed your post, Ellis:
Quote:
Yes Rev-- I noticed this--The number is now over 2,050,000 and growing by the day!--the other day and was oddly pleased that this particular discussion, controversial though it my be, has so far remained interesting and very civil!

Congratulations to us all!
Ellis, could it be that this success is because those of us who write ARE FULL OF S.H.I.T? Does the question shocked shock you? Or do you find it amusing? laugh
IMO, I think it is because most Atheists/Agnostics/Christians/Jews/Muslims/Hindus--you name it, are, when push come to shove, full of S.H.I.T! That is, for the most part we are, or at least we would like to be: Spiritually Healthy and In Touch with IT--imminence and transcendence, as well as G+O+D--all that is good, omnipresent and delightful.
=========================================

This prompts me to ask: Is it possible that RELIGION CAN BE FUN? Anyone not heard of, or seen the musical, GODSPELL?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godspell

THE CHURCH OF GOOD SHITS AND SOME HYPOCRITES--WHATEVER FITS, INCLUDING SOME TWITS !
============================================
I once thought of starting a church with the name of The United Church of Good S.H.I.T.S.--a Society for Humans In Trouble--and one with Scruples. It would be made up of small groups of Sinners Anonymous--modeled after the famous AA Program.

NOW: Here is a challenge: Is it possible that using the sciences and the arts--especially the art of good humour--could we have a meeting of minds (psyches) and could we use them to build a virtual religion made up of groups--large and small--of people who agree that, by and large and deep down, most of us are good S.H.I.T.S.--people want to use their wits to avoid being negative twits, and hypocrites?

That is, we want to be normal human beings--but those who are willing to work at being socially healthy, intelligent, thoughtful and have scruples. Interestingly, in ancient Rome, a scruple was 20 grains of pure gold.

BTW, look what happened when the Romans lost their scruples. The debasing of the gold, silver, copper and bronze coins is what led to vicious inflation. Historians agree that it was one of the major causes of the fall of Rome--then one of the greatest, if not the greatest, centres of power on earth.


Edited by Revlgking (02/09/11 09:44 PM)
Edit Reason: Always good to do
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#37405 - 02/10/11 03:27 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Well that's one interpretation--- and it made me smile!

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#37456 - 02/15/11 12:55 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Ellis]
socratus Offline
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Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Re: Comment Received for Article 'Who created God?'

Dear Israel,
In the first verses of the Bible are mentioned energy,
light and matter, all components of Einstein's famous
formula, which of course God knew about long before
Einstein discovered it.
But it is not written in the Bible because the Bible was written
to draw people to faith in God, not teach us physics.
Even today, the inclusion of this formula would confuse many
people and turn them off reading the Bible.
If you are going to base your reasoning on atheism and evolution
you will never succeed in creating a 'logical system of the universe'
because you are starting with false premises.
I suggest you study more of the articles on Creation.com so you can
understand why organisms cannot go from simple to more complex
by any natural process and especially by Neo-Darwinism.
And if atheism is true, then on what basis can you trust your brain
to generate true thoughts about the nature of God and the universe?
See http://creation.com/cs-lewis-on-materialistic-thoughts
Kind regards,
/. . . . /
========================.

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#37461 - 02/16/11 04:45 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
Ellis Offline
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Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
If atheism is 'true', then it is not necessary to generate 'true thoughts' about the nature of God because he/she/it does not exist. That is the only 'true thought' that is needed.

The universe is not the same as god. Unlike god the universe's existence can be proved, therefore further study of its origin, nature etc is justified. Whether it is a logical system or one which is chaotic I have no idea, but I can understand why people want to explore it. After all they do not have to waste time proving it's there to start with!

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#37642 - 03/02/11 06:19 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Ellis]
socratus Offline
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Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
GOD ??!!

Can God be scientist?
Book:
‘The Metaphysical Foundations of Modern Science.’
/ E.A. Burtt. /
==.
Quotes about God as a scientist.
#
Page 82.
‘- God is a geometrician in his creative labours- he makes the
world through and through a mathematical system.’
Page 113.
‘ God had created the world of physical existence, for the
purpose that in man, the highest natural end, the whole process
might find its way back to God’
Page 121.
‘ God has made the world of matter such that the pure
mathematical concepts intuited by mind are forever
applicable to it.’
Page 175.
‘ According to Cartesian principles God cannot abolish
extension or the laws of motion.’
#
So, maybe God can be scientist.
==============.

Where is God’s house?
Book:
‘The Metaphysical Foundations of Modern Science.’
/ E.A. Burtt. /

Quotes about God and his source.
#
Page 27.
‘ But the big puzzles of the modern philosophers are all
concerned with space and time.’
Page 147.
Henry More (1614 – 1687 ) . . .
‘ In the Antidote against Atheism , written prior to 1662,
he (Henry More ) suggested . . . . that space
is no other than God himself.’
Page 148.
Henry More. . . ‘ . . . . space is itself God . . . . .’
‘ That spiritual object, which we call space, . . . . . .’
‘ In other words, space is God . . . .’. . . ‘ Space is divine.’
#
Isaac Barrow ( 1630- 1677) Newton,s teacher .
Page 155.
‘What is space?
It is impious, Barrow observes, to regard space as a real existence
independent of God; likewise to regard matter as infinitely
extended is contrary to scripture. But, if we discover the proper
relation between space and God, we can truthfully ascribe a real
exiatence to the former. God can create worlds beyond this world,
hence God must extend beyond matter, and it is just this
superabundance of the divine presence and power that we mean by space.’
Page 161.
‘ . . . space would no longer appear independent of the deity.’
Page 260.
‘Absolute space for Newton is not only the omnipresence of God;
it is also the infinite scene of the divine knowledge and control.’
#
So, maybe God can have infinite space-house.
==========.

What is situation now?
1.
Now is consider that the Absolute Reference Frame is vacuum
with T=2,7K ( after big bang). But this parameter isn’t constant.
It decreases in time and in the future will reach vacuum: T=0K.
We cannot reach the T=0K.
But maybe God can reach this infinite space and be there.
Maybe God can have infinite mystical house behind the T=0K
2.
This vacuum is full with Dirac’s ‘negative virtual particles’.
This vacuum is full with unseen ‘ dark matter’ and ‘dark energy’.
( They are more than 90% in the Universe)
Nobody knows what there are and therefore the atheists must
not to be very confidence. Maybe God can use these ‘negative
virtual particles’, ‘ dark matter’ and ‘dark energy’ for his work.
==.
If Henry More, Isaac Barrow and Newton were live to-day they
would ask logical question:
How can God, using more than 90% of unseen and unknown
matter in the Universe, create the observant material world?.
==========.
Socratus.

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#37688 - 03/05/11 02:21 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
Bill S. Offline
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Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
What became of Samantha? Her only appearance was on 02.11.09 (that's 11.02 for those across the water). It looked as though she was going to be a breath of fresh air.
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#37689 - 03/05/11 04:09 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Bill S.]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
What became of Samantha?
Her only appearance was on 02.11.09
(that's 11.02 for those across the water).
It looked as though she was going to be a breath of fresh air.


Samadhi.
The general meaning of ‘Samandhi’ is ‘ Meditation’
or ‘ Concentration’, but it has also a specialized meaning
for which English ‘ trance’ is more appropriate.’
/ Dictionary of Religions.
Page 282. The Penguin./
#
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samadhi
====.
S.


Edited by socratus (03/05/11 04:11 AM)

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#37692 - 03/05/11 01:13 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
Bill S. Offline
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Posts: 3570
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One of the things I like about this kind of thread is that although answers rarely match questions, they are always interesting. smile
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#38545 - 05/22/11 02:30 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Bill S.]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Unified Field Theory
/ By Tim Joseph /


In the beginning there was Aristotle,
And objects at rest tended to remain at rest,
And objects in motion tended to come to rest,
And soon everything was at rest,
And God saw that it was boring.

Then God created Newton,
And objects at rest tended to remain at rest,
But objects in motion tended to remain in motion,
And energy was conserved and momentum
was conserved and matter was conserved,
And God saw that it was conservative.

Then God created Einstein,
And everything was relative,
And fast things became short,
And straight things became curved,
And the universe was filled with inertial frames,
And God saw that it was relatively general,
but some of it was especially relative.

Then God created Bohr,
And there was the principle,
And the principle was quantum,
And all things were quantified,
But some things were still relative,
And God saw that it was confusing.

Then God was going to create Furgeson,
And Furgeson would have unified,
And he would have fielded a theory,
And all would have been one,
But it was the seventh day,
And God rested,
And objects at rest tend to remain at rest.

http://www.randomjoke.com/funny/fieldtheory.php
=================== .

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#38548 - 05/22/11 03:55 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
Bill S. Offline
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Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
I like it!
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#38722 - 06/06/11 09:06 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
james1951 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/06/11
Posts: 7
Of course there is a conflict between science and religion.

Science is the study of creation through the filter of our physical senses.

Religion is the study of the creator through our sense of spiritual qualities such as good and evil , or right or wrong, or even truth and reality as opposed to perception of truth and perception of reality.

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#38723 - 06/06/11 09:17 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
james1951 Offline
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Registered: 06/06/11
Posts: 7
For me this is incredibly insightful. I often consider that it is our defining of reality that creates it. While we have a need for boundaries and definition of such we also have a need of overstepping those boundaries without totally destroying the paradigms we have used to create them. We need to stay grounded on planet earth so we create gravity. But then we need to escape this restriction so we create ways of flying be it using lift or making things lighter than the atmosphere or perhaps anti gravity devices or teleportation mechanisms. No matter what physical laws we have made to restrain us we will find a way of circumventing those laws when it becomes necessary. Like the discovery of atomic power allowing us to use energy more efficiently. But what if we find an even more efficient manner of directly using energy than fusion or fission. Directly accessing the sub atomic forces that hold together time and space?



Originally Posted By: socratus
Unified Field Theory
/ By Tim Joseph /


In the beginning there was Aristotle,
And objects at rest tended to remain at rest,
And objects in motion tended to come to rest,
And soon everything was at rest,
And God saw that it was boring.

Then God created Newton,
And objects at rest tended to remain at rest,
But objects in motion tended to remain in motion,
And energy was conserved and momentum
was conserved and matter was conserved,
And God saw that it was conservative.

Then God created Einstein,
And everything was relative,
And fast things became short,
And straight things became curved,
And the universe was filled with inertial frames,
And God saw that it was relatively general,
but some of it was especially relative.

Then God created Bohr,
And there was the principle,
And the principle was quantum,
And all things were quantified,
But some things were still relative,
And God saw that it was confusing.

Then God was going to create Furgeson,
And Furgeson would have unified,
And he would have fielded a theory,
And all would have been one,
But it was the seventh day,
And God rested,
And objects at rest tend to remain at rest.

http://www.randomjoke.com/funny/fieldtheory.php
=================== .

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#38733 - 06/07/11 04:07 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: james1951]
Orac Offline
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Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
You missed the last one .... hey I am wearing a flakjacket so here goes.

Then physicists discovered Theory Of Everything.
And everything was discovered.
The unknown things became tiny.
The possibilities became vast.
The universe became small.
The possibilities of life was everywhere.
And god was seen as an illusion.
And mankind evolved
And Darwin rested happy in his grave.
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#39217 - 07/29/11 02:47 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Orac]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
/ John 1:1 /
#
In the beginning was the Word.
And the Word was written by formula: T = - 273,16= 0K.
T = 0K is an Absolute Reference frame.
Scientists call this Absolute Reference frame as an Aether (Vacuum).
But if in the beginning was T = 0K, can the T=0K take the functions of God?
Can T = 0K be an Absolute God?
To answer to this question we need to ask:
‘ Which kind of particles can exist in this Absolute Reference frame: T=0K?
#
And then "God said, ‘Let there be light,’ and there was light."
/ Genesis 1:3 /
#
My conclusion:
The secret of God and Existence is hidden
in the ‘ Theory of Vacuum and Light Quanta ‘.
========.
Best wishes
Israel Sadovnik Socratus
==========..

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#39227 - 07/29/11 08:19 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Socratus, way back you asked:
Originally Posted By: socratus
Where and Who is God?
Then I understand that, for you, God ( HE/SHE/IT ) is "Something Infinity Absolute". I assume you to mean that you think of God as that which is everywhere present and at the same time? Sounds OK to me.

As I point out in my thread on UNITHEISM--feel free to join in: For me G0D = all that is Good and generates, all that is 0rderly and originates and all that delivers and is Desirable.

Any god that can be described as one who exists and occupies a place in space and time is simply an idol. Idols can be beautiful works of art, but I do not confuse them, or even any one of them, with GOD.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#39232 - 07/30/11 02:18 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
Bill S. Offline
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Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Quote:
"Something Infinity Absolute"


If God is infinite, and the Universe (cosmos) is infinite; then, in spite of what one might do with mathematics, God must be the Universe, and the Universe must be God.

What is more, if this is a true infinity, then every particle in the Universe is the Universe, and is therefore God.
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#39241 - 07/30/11 10:54 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Bill S.]
Revlgking Offline
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Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Quote:
"Something Infinity Absolute"
If God is infinite, and the Universe (cosmos) is infinite; then, in spite of what one might do with mathematics, God must be the Universe, and the Universe must be God.
Bill S, are you telling us that this is what you believe to be true? How familiar are you with the theology of Baruch Spinoza--very much respected by Einstein, by the way--who, IMO, were panentheists (similar to unitheism).

I conditionally agree with you.

SOMATOLOGY--the study of the body and matter
In my opinion, yes! But keep the following in mind: While I agree that reductionism--the approach loved by physicists who worship materialism--has its place, the Universe, for me, is much more than just a somatological (physical, material) object, or construct--one that can be reduced to measurable bits and pieces.

PSYCHOLOGY--study of the mind
For me, the Universe is also a psychological, or mental construct. I am of the opinion that every living being, including you and I, is busy right now constructing the universe according to the kind of brain mechanism we happen to have. I admit that I could be wrong, but for me: Though we may agree that there are many things which we hold in common, my universe is my universe. And, your universe is your universe. Therefore, when you say
Quote:
What is more, if this is a true infinity, then every particle in the Universe is the Universe, and is therefore God.

PNEUMATOLOGY--study of the spirit
I will assume you are serious. If so, what you say is amazing. And I have no problem with this.

IMO, this leads us to what I call the pneumatological, or spiritual, construct. For me, the somatic and psychosomatic universe both have their roots in what I call the [b]pneuma-psychosomatic phenomenon.

Bill S, after I get your response, I will say more about this...
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#39242 - 07/31/11 04:47 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Bill S.]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Quote:
"Something Infinity Absolute"


If God is infinite, and the Universe (cosmos) is infinite;
then, in spite of what one might do with mathematics, God must be the Universe, and the Universe must be God.

What is more, if this is a true infinity, then every particle in the Universe is the Universe,
and is therefore God.


Infinity is the cause of the crisis in Physics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity
============ . .

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#39243 - 07/31/11 04:49 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
socratus Offline
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Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Does infinity have any physical parameter?
Socratus.
===============.

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#39247 - 07/31/11 08:01 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
Revlgking Offline
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Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: socratus
Does infinity have any physical parameter?
Socratus.
Socratus, to whom is this question asked? What do modern physicists say? Do they have a specific answer?

For me, infinity is the state of being infinite.

GOD AND PHYSICAL NATURE
In my opinion, physically speaking, the infinite is that which, like GOD, is without limits or bounds--that which is endless, in all directions.

THE VALUE OF HAVING LIMITS
It seems that, within limits, we can measure the parts close to us.
_________________________
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#39456 - 08/13/11 12:17 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
socratus Offline
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Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
We cannot touch, see, hear and smell God
and therefore God is Nothingness, Emptiness
The law number one:
Physics cannot live without Emptiness
The law number two:
The Emptiness isn’t emptiness
The law number three:
The fool won’t understand,
The ignorant won’t recognize
=.

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#39463 - 08/13/11 03:16 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
Revlgking Offline
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Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Socratus, this evening I heard a commercial-free interview by Thom Hartman--it was more like a conversation--with the physicist Michio Kaku (New York University) on my TV www.rt.com He talked about his new book, Physics of The Future--about his work with string theory.

I first heard of MK in 2008? Are you and other scientists reading this post familiar with the work of MK? Is he taken seriously?

http://rt.com/programs/big-picture/great-minds-weekly-rumble/

Because much of what M. Kaku says fits in with the theology of unitheism, I naturally hope that what the string theorists are saying is so. We'll wait and see.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#39467 - 08/13/11 08:43 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

Is he taken seriously?
http://rt.com/programs/big-picture/great-minds-weekly-rumble/
Because much of what M. Kaku says fits in with the theology of unitheism,
I naturally hope that what the string theorists are saying is so.
We'll wait and see.


===========.
The book : ‘ The trouble with Physics’. By Lee Smolin
===.
My brief comment.
Before physicist thought about particles as a ‘ points ‘.
Now they think ‘… particles could not be seen as points,
which is how they always been seen before.
Instead, they were ‘stringlike’, existing only in a single
dimension, and could be stretched, . .And . . . they vibrated.’
/ Page 103. /
‘ . . the idea of particles
as vibrations of strings was the missing link that could work
powerfully to resolve many open problems.’
/ Page 124./
And the string can have different geometric forms:
‘String can be both closed and
open. A closed string is a loop.
An open string is a line; it has ends’. / Page 106./
#
But there are many string theories. ( ! )
And the growing catalogue of string theories evokes trouble.
And therefore Lee Smolin wrote:
‘ – the missing element – must have been
one of the earliest triumphs of abstract thinking.’
/ Page 102/ . . . . and
‘ . . . at least one big idea is missing.
How do we find that missing idea?’ / Page 308. /
==.
Question:
How is it possible to take the string ‘ missing idea’ seriously?
===.
P.S.
More information: - Hallelujah !! String Theory !!
http://www.scienceagogo.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=36493
==.

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#39476 - 08/13/11 10:46 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
Revlgking Offline
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Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
OK, so what does your version of the "springy circle"--or perhaps it is a springy globe-like app (a SGA) or widget?--have to do with the "where-ness" or "who-ness" of 'god'?

=================================
Socratus, not that it matters, but were you raised in a traditional kind of Judaism? Or what?

For you, was there, or is there now, a who-like kind of 'god' anywhere--a 'god' with dimensions and who exists separate and apart from us? For you, is there, like the Bible stories imply, A 'god' who blesses us, or who sends us to the fire-and-brimstone of hell? Or to the joys of heaven?

As I said to Orac, if anyone thinks I am being too curious here, just tell me so. I'm very easy--feel free to be frank with me and tell me it is none of my business.

Thinking about your interesting ideas: How would you describe them to bright young and curious twelve-year children, or younger. How do we explain the nature and function of this "springy circle" or whatever it really is?

Perhaps within each of our body cells there are billions of SGA's that vibrate like the strings of a piano and they function to program us to be who we are.

Perhaps it is what I would call a god-like and self-directing SGA one that does its own thing regardless of what we think about it.

LET US FOCUS ON KNOWLEDGEAbout which Michio Kakus writes in his new book, Physics of the Future.

Is SGA--be they circular or globular--simply the way to a limitless source of a GOD-like kind of power-giving knowledge of the kind we all need--whether it be physical, mental or spiritual.

I have come to accept that this knowledge is like light from the sun.

Our sun is the source of so much that we human beings--not being insects, or mushrooms, that thrive in the dark--need and highly value. But, we need to also be aware: Too much sun does make a desert, eh?

I have also come to accept that the light of knowledge is only available to us, if, and when, we consciously connect with it and tap into it. Progress takes effort.

Accepting this is what really helps us--me at least--live life to the full.

IN 2005, OUT OF THE BLUE, THE FOLLOWING CAME TO MY ATTENTION. AT THE TIME I WAS 75--and an admirer of my daughter's use of Yoga.

Looking for new ways to greet the day with a healthy kind of exercise, I developed the following morning habit, or ritual:

Though I am retired and in no rush in the morning, I am still a relatively-early riser. But I am not, and never have been, a natural morning person. That is, I tend to feel down, in the blahs (the blues? Surely grays is the proper word?) in the morning.

What is your down-time of day? Your uptime? We all differ.

However, when I awake, the first thing I do is this: I drag myself out of bed, go to the bathroom, have a pee, look at myself in the mirror and shout: GOOD GOD!!! IT'S MORNING! Then I grin grin and try to fake a laugh laugh

Not really! Because my wife (who is a retired teacher) is usually still asleep. Though I would like to make a noise, I do not actually shout out LOUD. I only do so, silently.

BTW, I honestly envy those who can wake up feeling good and are able to say, cheerfully: GOOD MORNING GOD!

Why do I give vent--though it be in silence--and say how I feel?

A SUMMARY OF HOW I USUALLY BEGIN THE DAY: If one is in a rush to get to work--been there and done that for over 40 fast-moving years--the following can be done within 20 minutes.

Also keep in mind that this method combines exercise, bathing (or showering) and a morning devotions (meditation, prayers, whatever). What a bargain! And you got it here, courtesy www.flfcanada.com Don't tell me there is no "FREE" lunch.
============================================
I do the following because, I find that by being honestly aware of how I feel and facing honestly how I feel helps me wake up and feel better, if not now, later.

Doing some simply tai chi stretches also helps. By then I am ready for # 2 and for a shave.

COLOURS HAVE HEALING POWER
============================
Then I go to a colour chart that I have on the bedroom wall. It has the following colours: a vibrant blue, a lemon yellow, a Chinese red and an emerald green.

As I do rites #1 and # 3, of the Five Tibetan Rites--
http://www.mkprojects.com/pf_TibetanRites.htm
--I focus on the 4 colours--one at a time.

I GIVE COLOURS MEANINGS
Vibrant blue inspires me to say to myself: I AM, therefore, I have the power to choose, and to will. Regardless of how I feel, I can choose to be, or not to be... Meanwhile, I leave it to G0d operating in my cells to change my feelings. Me? I am responsible for what I will to feel, not what I feel.

Lemon yellow inspires me to say to myself: I WILL AND CHOOSE to think, learn, know and, therefore, understand.

Chinese red inspires me to say: I CHOOSE AND WILL TO CONNECT WITH THE POWER OF GOD--all the power I need to get things done. It energizes me. It also inspires me to pay attention to my breathing and oxygenate every cell in need of oxygen.

Emerald green inspires me to grow as I need to grow. Take note: On a clear day the sky is blue and the sun is a golden yellow. Blue and yellow make green--the "green, green grass of home".

I do rites # 2,4,5 while I am having a bath (shower).
B.A.T.H. I chose to be Be Aware & Think Health More conservative religionists could make it Born Again & Think Holy.

Take further note: No dogma is intended here: There are, depending on your preferences, other moves that can be used. Other imagery that can be added. Send along yours. I expect you to use your imagination, of which Einstein said, "Imagination is more important than knowledge."

But beware, the bad news is: Imagination is a two-edged sword. An evil imagination can be a dangerous and destructive one.

The good news is: A good imagination can be more helpful and more constructive.

Using the human ability to say I am, I will, therefore, I choose to imagine, to visualize and to meta-tate--that is I will use my head (the French say tete) but I also choose to go beyond (meta) it.

The bottom line is: I can connect with, tune into and in the silence say: I am, therefore I have the power to will, choose and think. Thinking leads to knowledge, which can lead to understanding (wisdom).

Immediately--in any situation, no matter how difficult--we can intuitively be led to take the right action; the right what to do about it. You and I will be led to the people we need, to the people who need us and to the things that need to be done and enjoy doing.

We are here to learn what we need to learn, to know what we need to do, and I do what needs to be done.


Edited by Revlgking (08/14/11 01:41 AM)
Edit Reason: Always a good idea!
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#39585 - 08/18/11 04:36 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415


GOOD MORNING GOD !
=================.
Everybody creates his God according to his own image and spirit.
If triangles made a God they would give him three sides.
/ Charles de Montesquieu . Persian Letters, 1721 /
#
If physicists made a God they would give him
concrete physical parameters.
/ Israel Socratus /
=================..


Edited by socratus (08/18/11 04:46 AM)

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#39590 - 08/18/11 05:27 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
Orac Offline
Megastar

Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Revlgking I am guessing his website lists him as from USSR (http://www.socratus.com/) and it would be hard to see how my former masters would not have re-educated him.

The domain is registered by an Australian registry and the website traceroute goes through GODADDY.COM to what appears to be a server farm.

Domain Name: SOCRATUS.COM
Registrar: GODADDY.COM, INC.
Whois Server: whois.godaddy.com
Referral URL: http://registrar.godaddy.com


So if I am guessing right Mr Socratus and I share a common former master and he is excercising his new religious freedom.
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#39609 - 08/19/11 05:52 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Orac]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
About creators of God
#
Everybody creates his God according to his own image and spirit
If triangles made a God they would give him three sides
/ Charles de Montesquieu . Persian Letters, 1721 /
#
If physicists made a God they would give him
concrete physical parameters.
#
Which parameters they can be ?
We know that God is something Infinite.
What is ‘INFINITY’ ? Nobody knows.
The conception of ‘ Infinity’ we can find not only in Bible
but in Physics too. Are they equal ?
I think that ‘INFINITY’ is ‘INFINITY’ and can be only one
for every knowledge, for every meaning.
I think there isn’t special ‘INFINITY’ for Bible and special
‘INFINITY’ for Physics. I think the conception ‘INFINITY’
is equal for every part of Science.
#
Again and again the ‘INFINITY’ appears in many physical
and mathematical problems.
/ Part Physics: Theoretical applications of physical infinity .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity /
It means that ‘INFINITY’ is some kind of reality. (!)
Does Physicists meet God In the Infinite ?
(!)
To understand this we need to find the answers to the questions:
1) What is / are the physical parameters of the ‘INFINITY’ ?
2) What is connection between the infinity and the concreteness ?
3) What is connection between infinity and quality ?
4) How to explain the unity and inconsistent character between
the infinity and the concreteness ?
===============.
Israel Socratus.
#
With this letter I finish my participation on this forum.
Thank you to everybody who took part on this link.
Your participation was important to me because it help
me better to understand my own ideas.
==.
Best wishes.
Israel Sadovnik Socratus
=====================.

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#39638 - 08/21/11 06:50 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Orac- are you being as creepingly invasive as you appear?

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#39669 - 08/22/11 06:39 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Ellis]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4122
I suppose he has an enquiring mind !

He has an enquiring mind and he wants to know.

and he wants us to know what his capabilities are.

Lets all hope that he is incapable of acquisitioning the 007 base station from q



The world's information would be in such peril.



_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#39675 - 08/23/11 01:43 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: paul]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Worry not - the original Orac was omniscient and the wrld survived.
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#39682 - 08/23/11 07:00 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Bill S.]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Oh! I remember Orac now! It was Blake's Seven wasn't it? (Or something like that- though Blake's Seven was unique!)

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#40816 - 10/09/11 01:40 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
VictorN Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 3

God is Telepathy

I am medicine student , today I received email from one person that "can use telepathy".
Is it possible that telepathy works on the distance of few kilometer, correct and all the time?
I can not find any official document on any existing person today that can use telepathy
but I found Vinko Rajic and Uri Geller and they are talking that they can use telepathy.
Why they do not make research on it? Many Schizophrenic are coming with similar story.
Can it be that some Schizophrenics are just receiving from some other head?
James Randi offer 1000000$ for evidence, but Vinko and Uri can use telepathy or maybe NOT?

There is not scientific evidence for telepathy. Why this telepathy madness?
At Edinburgh University, experts conducted controlled experiments to see if telepathy is possible.
Vinko maybe can give evidence for it but why they do not make an experiment with Vinko or Uri Geller?

Why are Schneider's symptoms of the first rank for Schizophrenia exact the same as Vinko's telepathy?
Is CIA's remove viewing project just a bluff because telepath's like Vinko can never find out who actually
is sending to them , also receiver or sender can never localize each other.


I think it is in interests of science and human kind to make some really research on Vinko and Uri.
New "Mad Monk" like Grigori Rasputin can happen again, some pararanormal people are very dangerous.

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#45959 - 11/06/12 08:55 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
topsy Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/06/12
Posts: 2
God is Love and he does exist. If we are bad, egocentric and callous we will never know God is alive. It is only when we open our hearts and become unconditionally selfless and love our neighbors would we be able to know God's existence. I found an interesting read from http://www.worldtransformation.com/is-there-a-god/ will help readers learn more.

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#45977 - 11/07/12 07:00 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: topsy]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Hi, topsy, welcome to SAGG.

Interesting link, needs a bit more time than I have at the moment, but I will come back to it.

I hope you are not saying that all atheists are “bad, egocentric and callous”, or you might get a stern reproach from Ellis. smile
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#45980 - 11/07/12 10:36 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Quote:
Where and Who is God?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...--NOT-over.html

Yes, indeed. In the light of the above, where and who is "God"?

In the same light--and with respect to all forms of belief such as scepticism, theism, deism and the like--the process philosophy and theology of panentheistic thinkers like Alfred North Whitehead & Charles Hartshorne (see the link, below), and others, make sense to me.
It is no wonder Richard Dawkins, with his espousal of atheism, in his book, The GOD Delusion, struck a chord with many people.
================
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Hartshorne


Edited by Revlgking (11/08/12 04:12 AM)
Edit Reason: Always helpful
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#46041 - 11/11/12 06:07 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
topsy Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/06/12
Posts: 2
Is it even right for us to ask this question? Are our ways and deeds not bad? Yes, there is God and God is love. We need love inside us before we can know of its existence. An informational article here- http://www.worldtransformation.com/what-is-love/ might be of help to non believers.

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#46061 - 11/12/12 03:12 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
BTW, why does Topsy show up as Paul in the "latest posts"?

Is this another incarnation, Paul? smile
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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