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#32532 - 11/05/09 08:05 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Quote:
Fact and Speculation.
1.
Fact.
The detected material mass of the matter in the Universe is so small
(the average density of all substance in the Universe is approximately
p=10^-30 g/sm^3) that it cannot ‘close’ the Universe into sphere and
therefore our Universe as whole is ‘open’, endless Vacuum.
But what to do with the infinite Universe the physicists don't know.

Socratus, how do you explain p=10^-30 g/sm^3) to grandmother? smile
==========================

==============================================
The critical density of the mass in universe is: p=10^-29 g/sm^3 .
== .
If the density of the universe is greater than the critical density,
then the strength of the gravitational force will stop the universe
from expanding and the universe will collapse back on itself.

Conversely, if the density of the universe is less than the critical
density, the universe will continue to expand and the gravitational
pull will not be enough to stop the universe from expanding.
This scenario would result in the 'Big Freeze', where the universe
cools as it expands and reaches a state of entropy.
#
Fact.
The detected material mass of the matter in the Universe is so small
(the average density of all substance in the Universe is approximately
p=10^-30 g/sm^3 or p=10^-31 g/sm^3) that it cannot ‘close’ the
Universe into sphere and therefore our Universe as whole is ‘open’,
endless Vacuum.
The Universe as whole is Vacuum a Kingdom of Coldness: T=0K.
But what to do with the Infinite Kingdom of Coldness the physicists
don't know. Here is hidden our problem. But without Aether /
Vacuum Physics makes no sense.
========= .
#
Heat death of the universe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Freeze
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Crunch
etc.
== .

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.
#32533 - 11/05/09 08:21 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Tutor Turtle Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: eccles

It is the childish nature of such "faith", epitomised by phrases like "God the Father", or "We are all God's children" which atheists find ridiculous.

I disagree. Atheists are not so concerned with the language nor the belief that would seem to epitomize religious behavior, but more so with the idea of God when religionists play upon the authority of the written word rather than direct experience. When someone says this is true because it is written here and we believe it means this.... It is the same common sense that drives one to personal discovery rather than to roll over and subscribe to an authority based on the democratic flow of the lemming mentality.
God the Father, as described by Jesus was not a person, but rather the un-manifest principal which supports the manifest. The idea that we are all Gods Children testimony to the fact that all matter is supported, created, experienced thru natural law. The law of cause and effect, or the laws of creation. The principal of order rather than chaos as the foundation of the universe.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#32539 - 11/05/09 12:44 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Tutor Turtle]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
TT

Your disagreement is noted. But atheists who concern themselves with "proof" and "evidence" are easy meat for believers who find "evidence" in "existence" itself. I raised the parent-child issue to illustrate the "security" function of religion. Atheists who simply define themselves as being without the need for such security myths have no need for futile discussion of the intricacies of "aspects of a deity".

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#32540 - 11/05/09 01:24 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Mr. ‘FF ’ wrote:
‘ There is only one place where "God" has been
demonstrated, even proven to exist - in human brains.’
=== .
God and Consciousness.

It seems you are right saying: ‘There is only one place
where "God" has been demonstrated, even proven
to exist - in human brains.’
Why? Because if God exist, HE /SHE/ IT must be
in every place it means in human brains too.
Question: is it possible to prove this ?
I will try.
Our brain works on dualistic basis: usually consciousness
(logically) and rarely unconsciousness ( at first it seems
illogically but at last it shows as very wise act) .
In his book ‘ The Holographic Universe’ Michael Talbot
on the page 160 explained this situation in such way:
‘ Contrary to what everyone knows it is so, it may not be
the brain that produce consciousness, but rather consciousness
that creates the appearance of the brain - . . . .’
But as the ‘Bhagavad Gita’ says:
Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form.
They do not know My transcendental nature and
My supreme dominion over all that be.
/ Chapter 9. Text 11./
========== . .
Best wishes.
Israel Sadovnik. / Socratus.

http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=23624&st=15
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2547&st=105
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2548

================== . .

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#32544 - 11/05/09 04:25 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Samantha]
Andrew Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/04/09
Posts: 3
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Hello, I am new here. I am a filmmaker, with a background in organized religion which I left a long time ago due to discrepancies in doctrine with historical facts. I am currently developing a documentary on Miracles, from the scientific perspective of mind over matter, natural and spiritual healing and self generated remissions of illness.

I find the dilemma of atheism vs. theism as interesting as creation vs evolution..and the study of ancient history and civilizations, primarily of the 'gods who came to earth' long ago. Most of history has been rewritten by the victors, and until recently, has ignored the discovery and deciphering of Sumerian cuneiform tablets, which shed an interesting angle on the definition of 'god'. My journey out of Watchtower mind control required a complete reworking of my previous belief system structure. A basic lay-understanding of what those tablets revealed helped me to leave a very closed minded religious Illuminati experiment known today as Jehovah's Witnesses. I did have help.

In my humble opinion, any discussion of who or where god is, needs to include an open-minded investigation of any reference in history to visitors who are NOT native to this planet, but may possibly have been here long before humanity, and been regarded as 'gods'.

We are living in interesting times, my new friends in discussion. Several countries around the world have now opened secret files of UFO activities, and numerous whistle blowers are coming out of NASA and various other '3 letter' agencies which have suppressed this knowledge out of fear of losing control over the masses with their power and control structure. Massive amounts of evidence of higher life forms existing in the universe, which might more aptly be called the 'multiverse' according to quantum physicists like Kaku, is now coming forward due to the freedom of information available on the internet and youtube.

Recently in July 09 in Spain, Robert Dean, formerly of NASA and military above top secret clearance, publicly showed images from voyager's trip past Saturn, of which only one set was not destroyed. Not only did these images reveal huge artificially constructed and intelligently piloted electromagnetic crafts, but also showed one cigar ship embedded in one of the rings or Saturn which was estimated to be 2000 miles long and 400 miles across.

Perhaps George Lucas's visions of Joseph Campbell's mythology and legends brought to the screen in Star Wars was not only an imaginary fairytale for kids. Perhaps it has awakened the collective unconscious into realization that humanity's journey into a higher level of consciousness, requires a complete reworking of our understanding of god, religion and how the human mind processes beliefs. Perhaps, as the aboriginals say, "CREATOR and/or GREAT SPIRIT" is a better attempt at explanation for the currently limited understanding of 'god'.

Some ancients such as the Dogon tribe in Africa and the Mayan civilization were quite aware of this, and yet with all the modern technologies available, we find we are still citizens of a planet which ridicules extraterrestrial presence and realities. This, my friends, is about to change. For the first time in modern history we are about to witness the convergence of science and religion, which will both be brought kicking and screaming into a synergistic understanding and awareness of our presence in a galactic community, which has so far been reluctant to reveal itself, because in their words 'man is still considered dangerous and barbaric' for the simple reason that we have not learned as yet, that 'killing each other' for whatever reason, is simply unacceptable behavior in the galactic community.

I realize that this topic may be a bit 'out there' for some here, yet we must realize first of all, the planet earth is at a point in our history which will result in huge, massive changes, some already underway. Most of the media's attention on issues such as global climate change completely overlook the facts that are collectively available, as we have been here before. Yet our belief systems are commonly structured in such a way, whether by commerce, science OR religion, to ignore most of this previously recorded data, in favor of our unending need to strengthen the status quo and ignore the lessons of forgotten and hidden history.

My conclusion to these thoughts is, that whether science, religion, archeology, astronomy, medicine, physics, psychology, spirituality, or any of these or other fields of study and interest..must all look towards a coming quantum leap in human consciousness which by it's very nature will nullify a lot of what we have believed for centuries, to be fact.

Welcome to the future. Welcome to the incoming age of light(literally). The photon belt as described by some mystics and scientists, as well as the Inuit(who have seen it) in far reaches of northern Canada, is about to alter the very nature of our DNA. It is a band of sub-atomic photon particles running through our galaxy, which our solar system is entering now. The golden age of a thousand years of peace is about to envelop and affect everyone of us. It has already resulted in the birthing of extremely gifted 6th sense children which the Russians and Chinese openly honor and study. Unfortunately in North America, we feed these gifted children Ritalin and medicate them into oblivion.

I have opened myself here with much more information than I originally intended. All of the above postulations I make are verifiable through personal research. I am at a point in my life where I feel no need to prove anything any longer. 30 years ago I was busy full-time preaching of watchtower doctrines, believing at the time that it was truth, and it was absolute. Almost 30 years later, I realize that not only is truth relative, but understandable to me..only through each of my own reference points.

Likewise,my understanding of 'god' or GoD' or GOD, has changed significantly. Both Einstein and Tesla understood that there is an aether, an electromagnetic energetic information medium present in all of space, whether a vacuum or atmospheric in nature. Some call it 'zero point'. Certain gifted individuals throughout history, such as Edgar Cayce the sleeping prophet, were able to 'access' this medium in stored information and make beneficial use of knowledge, wisdom and previously untapped free energy resources, knowledge of which has been too long suppressed. Some call it the akashic records, some call it the universal library, doesn't matter what we call it. If we can maintain information on magnetic tape, and radio frequencies can transmit huge amounts of data, who or what's to say that all the knowledge of the universe is not only available, but accessible to everyone with a focused thought? Collective amnesia, using only 5-10 % of our brain, has so far prevented this for most people. This also, is about to change. Imagine knowing without doubt when someone is lying to you. Imagine that there are no secrets any longer. Imagine knowing when someone is contacting you telepathically, and you no longer need your cellphone. Imagine healing yourself of virtually anything, within minutes or hours, or days. These are no longer daydreams, this IS a reality for some, already.

In closing, I wish to say that any understanding of god in my personal sense, needs to include much more than simply science and religion are able to offer, since the human's nature is to compartmentalize and categorize everything into departments which then for reasons of bureaucracy, red tape or whatever egotistic reasons for refusing open communications,is hidden from the whole. I could tell you about a device patented by 2 doctors in 1991 which eradicates viruses including HIV with a 9volt battery. But I won't for now, because I could go to jail. Democracy? Freedom of information? True innovation rewarded? We live in a strange and contradictory world my friends.

We then file away knowledge into different disciplines, which have over thousands of years become radically closed and over protected in their ability to appreciate the holistic, synergistic and complete Oneness of ALL that IS. In short, we will soon find that all really comes from what many have tried to interpret in different ways...as the original formless substance, which is everywhere.

Pleased to make your acquaintance,

Andrew

*There was never an original big bang, the human simply has trouble understanding the concept of infinity*~Anon.
_________________________
"The most beautiful is the mysterious" ~Einstein

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#32545 - 11/05/09 04:25 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Tutor Turtle Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: eccles
TT

Your disagreement is noted. But atheists who concern themselves with "proof" and "evidence" are easy meat for believers who find "evidence" in "existence" itself. I raised the parent-child issue to illustrate the "security" function of religion. Atheists who simply define themselves as being without the need for such security myths have no need for futile discussion of the intricacies of "aspects of a deity".

opinion noted.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#32546 - 11/05/09 07:31 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Andrew]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
Andrew,

Has it occured to you that you might have exchanged the fruits of one "tree of gullibity" for those of a whole orchard of others ? i.e. Is there anything bar standard religion that you are NOT prepared to use for your prophecy of "a quantum leap in consciousness" ?

In psychology there is what is known as a "schizophrenogenic family", i.e a social grouping whose communicative mode tends to precipitate schizophrenic symptoms in one or more of its members. I put it to you that your socialzation amongst Jehova's Witnesses could have been "bizarre-belief-ogenic". Or to put it more simply, you are looking for something to fill the gaps left, after your rejection of your first belief system.





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#32547 - 11/05/09 08:41 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415

Science and religion in tandem can become a great force
to liberate the mind and help the humans to a fuller and better
understanding of reality.
/ Sikh Religion and Science
by G. S. Sidhu M.A; FIL (London) /
http://www.sikhroots.net/resources/Sikh_Religion%20&Science.pdf
====================

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#32548 - 11/05/09 08:50 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: eccles
Socratus,
... phrases like "God the Father", or "We are all God's children" which atheists find ridiculous.
Eccles, G0D just told me: "I find my atheist children very amusing, and often ridiculous. Just wait till Mother Mary gets home! She'll deal with them, for disobeying me! laugh

=========================
E=MC2 + GOD [Creative agape/love in, through and around all that is.]

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#32549 - 11/05/09 10:38 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
eccles wrote
"It is the childish nature of such "faith", epitomised by phrases like "God the Father", or "We are all God's children" which atheists find ridiculous".,,,

and I think that this contribution (by socratus) could be added to that observation too...

...."---if God exist, HE /SHE/ IT must be
in every place it means in human brains too."

The human brain itself is merely a body part and in my post the phrase "human brains" was a metaphor for "the ideas of humans" which are, I am sure that you will agree are often far from godly. To make it even more clear for literalists-- "Human brain" in my original statement represents "human constructs/ideas", of which 'god' is an example. It is an abstract human concept and is differently interpreted by every person.

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#32550 - 11/05/09 10:41 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: socratus

Science and religion in tandem can become a great force
to liberate the mind and help the humans to a fuller and better
understanding of reality....
Socratus, my sentiments, exactly!
======================
To Andrew--the latest member of this dynamic team in the process of becoming servants of the social good: What do you think of the suggestion by Socratus?

BTW, I like your opening remarks, especially the way you gave us some background of who you are and why you got involved in NOT QUITE SCIENCE.

Your positive mental attitude is quite refreshing, even though I may challenge you on some of your presumptions and ideas.

I hope you do not mind a challenge, OK? Feel free to challenge me back, as long as you offer it in agape, which I do to you--if you know what I mean.

Nameste--looking for GOD--interpret as you will--in all who read this post.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#32551 - 11/06/09 06:49 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
To argue that "science" helps us understand "reality" assumes that "reality" has objective status. Socratus clearly holds that assumption with his emphasis on the word "fact".

However, he should note that the word "fact" comes from the Latin facare "to make/do/construct" (as in the French faire). This point is illustrated by Thomas khun's analysis of "scientific progress" as a succession of social paradigms amongst those who call themselves "scientists". In such a view, "objectivity" amounts to "temporary social agreement".

In so far that "science" allows humans to predict and control their lives to a limited extent, and "religion" fills the "control gaps", we can postulate the possibility of "social dancing" between the two. Whether we see such dance dates leading to a fruitful "marriage" requires pretty strong rose coloured spectacles.

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#32552 - 11/06/09 07:13 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Andrew]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Quote:
Likewise, my understanding of 'god' or GoD' or GOD, has changed significantly. Both Einstein and Tesla understood that there is an aether, an electromagnetic energetic information medium present in all of space, whether a vacuum or atmospheric in nature. Some call it 'zero point'.

Certain gifted individuals throughout history, such as Edgar Cayce the sleeping prophet, were able to 'access' this medium in stored information and make beneficial use of knowledge, wisdom and previously untapped free energy resources, knowledge of which has been too long suppressed.
Andrew, you mention Edgar Cayce the sleeping prophet.
My daughter, Catherine, has this very useful gift. Her ability to go into deep trance helped save her life. It also helped her find her life's career as an artist, and drugless therapist, in partnership with a fellow artist, Wayne.

Here is a sample of their living work of art in progress: It is at Freedom Cove, Near Tofino, BC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDqbfiejLdM

Many times, free of charge, she has used her gift to help others.

Eccles, it seems to be a fact that healthy religion--that is, the open, inclusive and non-doctrinaire kind, and in the philosophical sense of the word--can live in harmony and in creative partnership with the sciences and the arts.

BTW, Eccles, I assume you are into science of some sort, right? I also assume you are not one those who believes that all the sciences--or for that matter, all the arts--in all applications, always take the high moral ground. Agreed?

I always ask those who make such a claim: Tell me about the scientists who, for centuries have given themselves in the service of cruel and psychopathic tyrants (for example, Nero, Henry VIII, Napoleon, Hitler and his Nazism, Stalin, several popes and leaders of Islam, etc). Dare I say: not even all democratic republics have been without some guilt.

And look at the way the arts, including the media and sports--all have been used by the Nazis, and the Communists, etc. Tyrants have always used everything in their control to impose their will to power. And let us not forget the powerful tool we call religion.


Am I out order to suggest that Sick sciences and sick arts are no more to be desired than sick religions?

And, it seems to me, that one of the sure signs of disease is when--instead of finding ways to collaborate--all they do is attack one another. Dawkins, Hitchins et al, take note.

In the hands of powerful fools, all things, including good things, including spirituality, are nothing but tools of destruction.


Edited by Revlgking (11/06/09 08:20 AM)
Edit Reason: always useful
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#32554 - 11/06/09 10:57 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Physics and Anomalies.
http://www.anomalytv.com/site/category/telekinesis/
???
============

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#32557 - 11/06/09 12:49 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
Given the history of humanity we have absolutely no reason to be optimistic about "beneficient progress". Most technologies, including medicine, arise from military or economic competition, and great conflicts continue to loom in terms of use of the planet's resources. Such philosophical/spiritual speculations in which we are engaged here may be no more than a mental luxury of "Westerners" who "forget" they utilise twenty five times per capita of resources than the poorest countries.

In the light of the above, Dawkins (et al) may ultimately make more sense than some of us might care to admit.

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#32558 - 11/06/09 03:14 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
Socratus,

This does not seem to be a very well-controlled experiment. Uri Geller performs much more impressive tricks, but that's what he's doing - tricks.

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#32559 - 11/06/09 06:47 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Tutor Turtle Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: eccles
Given the history of humanity we have absolutely no reason to be optimistic about "beneficient progress".
So I take it you base your personal choices on historical references which you give validity to, as the meaning of life...
Originally Posted By: eccles

Most technologies, including medicine, arise from military or economic competition, and great conflicts continue to loom in terms of use of the planet's resources.

You're saying mankind has no inherent nature to progress but rather to succeed, in an economic evironment.
Originally Posted By: eccles
Such philosophical/spiritual speculations in which we are engaged here may be no more than a mental luxury of "Westerners" who "forget" they utilise twenty five times per capita of resources than the poorest countries.

Mankind is without any properties that might set the species apart from herd animals. Intelligence is not only a luxury but wasted in inefficiency and blindness to any awareness that there is anything other than our own personal needs and desires...???? confused
Originally Posted By: eccles

In the light of the above, Dawkins (et al) may ultimately make more sense than some of us might care to admit.

I suppose if you believe the earth is flat and you could sail over the edge of the earth into oblivion, your ability to comprehend life would be limited to the things you believe are real.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#32561 - 11/06/09 07:41 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Tutor Turtle]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
TT

I am saying that contemplating "Gods" or "meanings of life" is the price we pay as a species for possessing internalized planning skills which anticipate our own mortality. Why price ?...because such mental meanderings are at best futile, and at worst pernicious, as history continues to demonstrate.

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#32564 - 11/07/09 01:00 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Zephir Offline
Superstar

Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
In AWT Universe appears like being composed of nested density fluctuations of matter, similar to fractal foam. This geometry isn't ad-hoced, but it follows from principles of probability: every object in Universe is composed of many others smaller ones, which can be interpreted like density fluctuations of particle gas, i.e. Aether. The extrapolation of this chaotic field appears like omnipresent omnipotent intelligence, which is similar to God archetype in many aspects.

For example, in AWT event horizon of black holes is exaggerated example of gravitational lensing, which leads to the total reflection phenomena. During travel into black hole we could see (providing we could survive such travel without evaporation), the event horizon is opening gradually and at the certain moment it would disappear under formation of another event horizon behind our back. The space-time inhomogeneities would create another black holes around a sky - so we could see, the former Universe generation is formed by black hole as well, the inner surface of which is behaving like one-way mirror, reflecting blue color preferably.



This brings a hell and heaven archetype, as the outer surface of black hole resembles an attracting hole of the hell, glowing in dark red via Hawking mechanism - while the same artifact from inside would appear like reflecting and repulsive bladachino tabernacle resembling the mirror-like silver sky with bluish cloud undulating majestically, i.e. a heavens. In Genesis formation of life occurred in six steps, non-uniformly distributed in space-time scale, but equidistantly separated in entropy density scale ("days"). The first stage was a formation of space and time ("heavens and the earth") inside of graviton condensate ("darkness over the deep and God's breath (Aether) hovering over the waters" (waves?)). Gravitons are ambivalent particles, serving both like boson, both like fermions due the supersymmetry. During Big Bang event ("let there be light") phase transition of space-time has occurred, followed by separation of first generation of bosons, i.e. photons ("God separated the light from the darkness") in process of so called inflation, which resulted into condensation of black hole dome, forming observable generation of Universe ("let there be a dome in the midst of the waters"), i.e. the vacuum formed by interior of black holes in particular ("God called the dome Sky").

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#32566 - 11/07/09 01:17 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Tutor Turtle Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: eccles
TT

I am saying that contemplating "Gods" or "meanings of life" is the price we pay as a species for possessing internalized planning skills which anticipate our own mortality. Why price ?...because such mental meanderings are at best futile, and at worst pernicious, as history continues to demonstrate.
I don't deny your history, just that it isn't the only history, nor are your assumptions reflective of true human potential.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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