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#32504 - 11/03/09 12:52 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Samantha]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Rev wrote:
"And, BTW, it was Macbeath, not Shakespeare,"

Although Macbeth was an historical figure it was in fact Shakespeare who composed the particular speech that is one of the most evocative he ever wrote. As to Shakespeare's religious beliefs-- there is some evidence that his family were Roman Catholic sympathisers, but W.S seems not to have shared that to any great degree. Don't forget that in those days religious deviance of any sort could see you publicly burned.

Also-- Faith and belief are what makes you so CERTAIN that your god envelopes you, surrounds you and is 'there' for you. So that is true for you. It is precisely that lack of faith and belief that ensures an atheist can state that there is no such thing as god (in any unimaginable or imaginable manifestation).

eccles is so right... 'The "faith" is involved in use of the word "in"!'

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#32505 - 11/03/09 02:54 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Ellis]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
Ellis,

For the purposes of debate, what the Rev calls "himself" knows that it acts as a microcosm of "God" hence it has no requirement for the word "faith".i.e. To that "self" has been revealed "the Truth".

The problem with that position is that it assumes that the integrity of such a "self" has persistence in the face of the common observation that self-integrity is illusory. (...consider, for example those characters to which we ascribe "ourself" who occupy our dreams...). It is my contention that it is the debate context, driven by the desire for security, which evokes such a "God-self" and that such debate continues internally within his "committee".

The Rev is well aware of the "committee nature of self" through his readings of Gurdjieff and may seek to ascribe "higher Self" to his "God-mode". But that claim would also involve much cosmological baggage which he may selectively avoid, or re-interpret with his pseudo-equations.

Outside the debate context, such a "God-self" is as ephemeral as a passing cloud, or as he might wish to put it, "a burst of sunlight", despite his efforts to perpetuate it through "God-like acts".

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#32506 - 11/03/09 05:49 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
eccles,

Would there not be need to have faith that he is part of the revealed truth that is god? And have faith that the truth of this god-like state thus revealed and the subsequent God-like actions are the result of the personal belief that is the result of discovering that they are god inspired in the first place? It's a very circular situation of the chicken and egg variety.

Surely there has to be an anchoring of faith or belief in something 'other' or the whole thing becomes an idea dreamed up on a sunny afternoon, and no different from the musings of a lazy atheist. Doesn't it?

Personally I congratulate him on his strong point of view, but I do feel that to deny it is a belief and requires faith to sustain it is disingenuous.

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#32507 - 11/03/09 06:57 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Ellis]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
Ellis,

Who is the "he" who needs a concept of "faith" ? Certainly not the "God-self" any more than we have "selves" which would use the word "faith" to describe our expectation that the sun will rise tomorrow. (compare with Incas sun-sacrifices etc). If we argue that we don't need "faith" because we have "evidence", the Rev will argue he also has "evidence" for his particular version of the "God concept".

The only "faith" that he may admit to is that "existence" has a "purpose", for the alternative cannot be contemplated. His choice perhaps to call all existence "God" effectively sidesteps the traditional "faith in the existence of God" debate for him.



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#32508 - 11/03/09 09:18 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Samantha]
Amaranth Rose II Offline

Superstar

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 962
Loc: Southeast Nebraska, USA
Samantha,
Please try to bring your posts to the level of at least an intelligent first grader. Calling people stupid and threatening violence violates the terms of use of this forum.

Amaranth
Moderator
_________________________
If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose


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#32509 - 11/03/09 02:21 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Amaranth Rose II]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Do you believe God create woman
from Adam’s rib using physical laws ?
========================================

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#32513 - 11/04/09 05:28 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
like millions before us when we could not explain what we saw,
we turned to the gods for the answers.
But Zeus never gave the answers, nor did Neptune or Ra.
No answers are given by the most modern one!
The answers come from mankind.
It is us and only us who can unravel this mystery.
With no help from any divinity.
It is this mystery of who we are and what we see around us,
that gives birth to gods.
If there is a string theory then we will find it.
But to suppose there is a single theory of everything,
seems like we are still much like the ancients.

Posted by " canadapiper"
===========================

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#32514 - 11/04/09 06:53 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: eccles
Ellis,

... His (LGKing's) choice perhaps to call all existence "God" effectively sidesteps the traditional "faith in the existence of God" debate for him.
Yes, it does! IMO, debating is a zero-sum game. I prefer to converse, or dialogue. Also, for me all Being, GzeroD/GOD, is an evolving, an eternal process of becoming. I find this idea truly amazing.

BTW, an atheist in another forum indicates--in a quote he uses as his signature--that for him, "death is the great hope"; or does he mean solution to all our suffering and pain. Interesting thought.

If I actually thought this to be reality, for me it would a far-more depressing idea of what 'hell' is than the traditional one. I am sure this kind of existential anxiety is what drives many people to suicide. After her third attempt, I once saved a woman's life-- when I convinced her: There is no evidence, no guarantee, that there will be death of conscious awareness when the body dies.

[Her words were: "To go on living with the fears I have would be hell. I must do something about overcoming them."
Using hypnosis, I helped her to do so.]

Of course, I do not accept death as a valid solution, but I can accept that some people do. Do any atheists here agree with this "solution'?
=======================
Talk about GOD as being totally inclusive! For Islam (the source of peace) 'Allah' is Arabic for the One (power), and you name it:
http://wahiduddin.net/words/wazifa.htm

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#32515 - 11/04/09 07:51 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
Unity is closure.
Closure gives security.
Faith is in security, the antithesis of insecurity.

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#32518 - 11/04/09 12:40 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Eccles, very interesting comment. Now spell out what you mean.
How secure do you feel about the soma, psyche and pneuma?
What do you think of the Islamic concept of 'Allah'?

BTW, we translate 'Allah' as 'God'; which I translate as GOD, and which I presume, by now, my fellow fellow posters understand is an acronym, not a noun. Check out http://www.unitheist.org

As I understand it, the major monotheistic religions--Judaism, Christianity, and Islam--began with the idea: We worship the one true and all-powerful god and we have the right to impose his will on the whole world. And, with the help of his righteous wrath, we will do so.

The unique message of Jesus was: "I do not agree with my religion, Judaism, and I want to reform it.

"When it comes to the doctrine of the messiahship, most of my fellow Jews--except for a few of the prophets--have it totally wrong. They want a righteous and conquering king to rule over them and all the world.

"My messianic belief is that we are all messiahs. We are here to give loving service even to one another, including the $#@%**#$ who, foolishly, choose to be the enemy."

In this sense Jesus was not a Christian.

Anyone. In what way did Jesus change the message of Jesus


Edited by Revlgking (11/04/09 01:22 PM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#32519 - 11/04/09 02:38 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
With respect, I don't wish to get involved in speculative aspects of "unity". All I would point out is that such a concept tends to rule out possibilities such that our "universe" could be merely an experiment in some petri dish of an alien life-form. In the mathematics of systems theory, an infinite regress of nested hierarchies is certainly viable. "Unity" forecloses on such mathematics and is therefore a psychologically functional and perhaps a palliative assumption about "reality".

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#32520 - 11/04/09 05:28 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Quote:
Fact and Speculation.
1.
Fact.
The detected material mass of the matter in the Universe is so small
(the average density of all substance in the Universe is approximately
p=10^-30 g/sm^3) that it cannot ‘close’ the Universe into sphere and
therefore our Universe as whole is ‘open’, endless Vacuum.
But what to do with the infinite Universe the physicists don't know.

Socratus, how do you explain p=10^-30 g/sm^3) to grandmother? smile
==========================
The Universe on a T-Shirt
E=MC2 + GOD--service-based as agape/love

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#32521 - 11/04/09 05:40 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: eccles]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Eccles, I showed your last post to a friend. His response: "Sounds rather pompous, to me. I don't think grandmother would get the point".

Perhaps both of us are too pompous. smile
=======================================
The Universe on a T-Shirt
E=MC2 + GOD--service-based agape/love

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#32522 - 11/04/09 05:43 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: Revlgking


As I understand it, the major monotheistic religions--Judaism, Christianity, and Islam--began with the idea: We worship the one true and all-powerful god and we have the right to impose his will on the whole world. And, with the help of his righteous wrath, we will do so.

This idea reduces the possibility of any subjective/Objective force being the underlying nature of spirituality as the foundation of life to a hierarchical belief system.
This implies that God was never known but simply fabricated. This would lessen your resolve to know God by your own belief that God was not known but designed by human idealists.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

The unique message of Jesus was: "I do not agree with my religion, Judaism, and I want to reform it.

Jesus said "I have a religion"?....

He never said "I disagree with scripture", and he never saw scripture as a religion, but as description of spiritual principal. He only disagreed with the egoic idealists, who without a direct experience of the Supreme Being would superimpose their beliefs into the idea of a first cause. He disagreed with fabrications of belief such as the belief that "the major monotheistic religions--Judaism, Christianity, and Islam--began with an idea rather than a direct experience
Without a direct experience of the supreme being one takes scripture (The writings of the enlightened, or those who have a direct experience of God) and reduce the words to idealistic projections based on a lack of experience.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

"When it comes to the doctrine of the messiahship, most of my fellow Jews--except for a few of the prophets--have it totally wrong. They want a righteous and conquering king to rule over them and all the world.

"My messianic belief is that we are all messiahs. We are here to give loving service even to one another, including the $#@%**#$ who, foolishly, choose to be the enemy."

Jesus never spoke of his experience and Union as a belief. That is possibly the only way a person who lacks an experience could put the words of Jesus into perspective. Without the direct experience of something, the only possible reason would be projected in theory according to how one personally derives their own faith, as a product of belief and projection of experiences based on belief.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

In this sense Jesus was not a Christian.

Anyone who establishes a permanent awareness of the Supreme being is Christ-ed. As it was stated in his dialogue as being One with the Father and witnessing the Father as the Father witnessed him, he was offering Truth to those who would seek to live a life based on the actual experience of God, rather than to give faith to projections and ideals based on the mind saturated in duality and the ego of personal beliefs.

One who does not experience God cannot find God in anything but an ideal. Therefore God lay in some far off future experience and in a Heaven that is not available until some projected afterlife. Jesus was very direct in unraveling scripture to those who had the ears to hear.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

Anyone. In what way did Jesus change the message of Jesus

Jesus message was unwavering and consistent throughout his life as a Teacher. It was only those who did not themselves have the direct experience of Union with God in every thought feeling and action, and in every experience of life, who projected limitation and belief into his teaching.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#32525 - 11/04/09 06:44 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Revlgking]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
Quote:
Eccles, I showed your last post to a friend. His response: "Sounds rather pompous, to me. I don't think grandmother would get the point".


Perhaps neither your friend nor his grandmother is familiar with "systems theory". wink

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#32526 - 11/04/09 08:04 PM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Ellis]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
Socratus,

You started with two questions and then you attempted to answer a question without thinking it through.

You asked "Where and Who is God ?"

There is only one place where "God" has been demonstrated, even proven to exist - in human brains. Unlike "a chair" the effects of which we can experience directly, the inference of "God" as something more than a "concept" exists at the end of a long, evidence-free path of obscurantism, bloviating linguistic abuses, and general poor reasoning.

There is no evidence that God is a "who," but substantial evidence that God is a "what." It's an arrangement of electrochemical potentials and impulses in the Brain induced by poor reasoning and used to fill a void created by want - want of evidence, want of security, want of influence, want of recognition.

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#32527 - 11/05/09 12:11 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
FF wrote:
"There is only one place where "God" has been demonstrated, even proven to exist - in human brains."

I understand and agree with this point! It is personal belief that ensures the existence of god for the believer. It is not possible to prove there is a god because, as FF states, that is a personal conceptual construct. It is also not possible to prove that god does not exist, as proving an absent negative would be difficult- maybe impossible I should think. (Why do I feel that statement will be challenged by fervent mathematicians?)

All the preceding arguments make great reading, and this grandmother enjoyed them. Maybe some 25 year old males may find themselves in need of further explanation however!


Edited by Ellis (11/05/09 12:12 AM)
Edit Reason: can't spell!

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#32528 - 11/05/09 12:19 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Ellis]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
I think most scientists understand that science is not capable of addressing the existence or non-existence of God.

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#32529 - 11/05/09 05:35 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: Ellis]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Originally Posted By: Ellis
FF wrote:
"There is only one place where "God" has been demonstrated,
even proven to exist - in human brains."

I understand and agree with this point!
It is personal belief that ensures the existence of god for the believer.
It is not possible to prove there is a god because, as FF states,
that is a personal conceptual construct.

==================
It seems you are right saying: ‘There is only one place
where "God" has been demonstrated, even proven
to exist - in human brains.’
Why? Because if God exist, HE /SHE/ IT must be
in every place it means in human brains too.
Question: is it possible to prove this ?
I will try.
Our brain works on dualistic basis: usually consciousness
(logically) and rarely unconsciousness ( at first it seems
illogically but at last it shows very wise) .
In his book ‘ The Holographic Universe’ Michael Talbot
on the page 160 explain this situation in such way:
‘ Contrary to what everyone knows it is so, it may not be
the brain that produce consciousness, but rather consciousness
that creates the appearance of the brain - . . . .’
But as the ‘Bhagavad Gita’ says:
Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form.
They do not know My transcendental nature and
My supreme dominion over all that be.
/ Chapter 9. Text 11./
========== . .

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#32530 - 11/05/09 07:06 AM Re: Where and Who is God ? [Re: socratus]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
Socratus,

The idea that "consciousness" is a priori to materiality was explored by David Bohm, the physicist. I expect Talbot cites his book on "Implicate Order". However to equate such "conciousness" with "God" is a secondary move which involves an additional aspect of "beneficient divinity" to what might otherwise be merely thought of as a "field effect". In that sense, the security aspects of such holistic consciousness are a matter of "faith" rather than rationality in the face of the actual sordid history of the activities of religious "believers", or the "indifference of nature" to suffering.

It is the childish nature of such "faith", epitomised by phrases like "God the Father", or "We are all God's children" which atheists find ridiculous.

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