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Originally Posted By: eccles
Ellis,

"Belief" is a bit of a red herring. We atheists simply don't get involved directly in "God" contexts....
Thanks for the direct clarification of your approach to "God" contexts.

Ah yes, context--an important word. Perhaps we need to ask theists--including deists and polytheists--, that is those who say, "I believe in God (or gods) ...": In what context--parts directly before and after--is God contained? Or we could ask: Does God have a context?

WHY I BECAME INTERESTED IN FUTUROLOGY
=====================================
I was thinking about the contextuality of "God", the history of belief and why we believe what we say we do, decades ago. This got me interested in futurology. I became Interested in the future of belief, theology, religions and the institutions--the churches, mosques, synagogues and temples, which promote them.

Quote:
At the heart of futurology is an understanding of what is possible, what is probable, and what is preferable, as well as the wildcards that may dramatically affect future outcome ...

http://www.wisegeek.com/how-do-i-become-a-futurist.htm
I became more and more convinced that, if theology and the idea of "God" was to have a meaningful and useful future, of real value to humanity, something had to be done about the way we do theology. With this in mind I began to study pneumatology and theology from the point of view of philosophy and psychology.

BTW, wisegeek points out: the first futurologists were theologians of the 1700's.



Last edited by Revlgking; 08/24/09 02:51 PM. Reason: good idea

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PNEUMATOLOGY--STUDY OF THE SPIRIT
=================================
Pneumatology. It is a sister of philosophy, the spouse of religion and the mother of psychology. In the early 1960's, encouraged by some members of my church who were interested in understanding what is prayer and how it differs from meditation--then a hot topic in the media--I began to explore the nature and function of the human mind and spirit and how they relate to prayer, meditation and the trance state. I spoke, openly, to my congregation about this and asked for their indulgence in exploring new ways of "saying" prayers while in the trance state.

TRANCE
======
Dictionary.com defines trance as a half-conscious state, seemingly between sleeping and waking, in which the ability to function voluntarily may be suspended.
2. a dazed or bewildered condition.
3. a state of complete mental absorption or deep musing.
4. an unconscious, cataleptic, or hypnotic condition.
5. Spiritualism. a temporary state in which a medium, with suspension of personal consciousness, is controlled by an intelligence from without and used as a means of communication, as from the dead.
===================
Origin of the word:
In 1300–50; ME (Middle English) traunce, referred to a state of extreme dread, swoon, dazed state < MF transe lit., passage (from life to death), deriv. of transir to go across, pass over < L tr&#257;ns&#299;re, equiv. to tr&#257;ns- trans- + &#299;re to go

=============================================
The Greek New Testament (Acts 10:10; 11.05 and 22:17) uses the word 'ekstasia', which the King James Bible translates as 'trance'. It means to stand outside oneself. I like this meaning best.

Probably because of the dictionary meaning, most people think of the trance state as being associated with the occult, a power used by masters of hypnosis to make people, especially weak-minded subjects, behave as robot-like puppets.

When I really explored the phenomenon, what I discovered was: It is a common state into which we human beings go in and out of any number of times, daily.

Sure, the ability to fall into the hypnotic trance, like any human ability, can be used foolishly, or wisely. For example, stage hypnotists, motivated by the desire to make money--some now call themselves mentalists--have used it to entertain large audiences by getting "subjects" to do all kinds of amusing things they would not ordinarily do.

But keep in mind: such "subjects" must first be willing--and I emphasize willing--to play along with what is expected of them. Ordinarily, no one can be forced to be a subject. Nor can the trance be used to make the impossible possible.

Used wisely however, many people, including students and professionals in all walks of life, including teachers, preachers, prophets, artists, athletes, whoever, have used the trance state, on themselves and others--consciously and, sometimes, unconsciously--to refine and improve on talents already present.

After I explained this to my congregation, I pointed out to them that almost all the prayers we say in church services are addressed to God as if he is an all-powerful, all-knowing, everywhere-present, all-loving judge-like king, and/or a father-like figure up there, or out there.

THE PATTERN OF PRAYING I USED IN THE FIRST PART OF MY MINISTRY
==============================================================
Following prayers of praise and thanksgiving to the Lord God Almighty, ministers in my day usually went on to pray for the heads of state, for those who make our laws, for our spiritual leaders, our social leaders, educators, clergy, doctors, lawyers, and even our politicians--hopeless sinners all. Just a joke. no one is hopeless smile .

Sometimes, assuming that God needed reminding, we started by giving him a report of on the crime scene in the area. Then we prayed: "Oh God, help our noble justice system, with the help of the wonderful police, bring all criminals to your justice."

[looking back, perhaps the prayer should have been: Oh God, please make the criminals come to church.]

Almost always, as if he needed our help, we gave God a report of what was going on in the war zones of the world, especially in the Middle East--where it has been going on for centuries. Then we asked him"

"Oh God! bring us peace."

[How come we still have war. We prayed, didn't we?]

[This thought just came to me: Why didn't we just pray, "O God, make all the bad people good, and all the good people--the ones who attend church--nice?" :)]
============================

"Our prayers", I said to the congregation, "contain many--and I mean many--petitions in which we ask God to do this, that, and the other thing for us.

We always liked to remind God about the sick and suffering, especially the children. We asked him to heal them. We mentioned those on their death beds and we asked him to bless them. Hmmm!

We then asked him to bless the poor, the unemployed, the ignorant, even the sinners, and whoever came to mind. Of course--I almost forgot--We asked his to bless agnostics, atheists and all other infidels..."

CHANGES WERE MADE IN THEY WAY WE PRAYED
======================================
With the above in mind, I asked my board--the leaders of the congregation--to allow me, from then on, to make some changes in the way prayers were said in the church services.

It was agreed.

GOD, it seems, responded with a big, YES!!!


Last edited by Revlgking; 08/24/09 10:27 PM.

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ABOUT THE TRANCE STATE
======================
May I revise what I say above about the meaning of trance by adding: It is often said of people in riots: The mob was so angry, they seemed beside themselves, so out of their minds with anger that they acted as though they were crazy. Armed with nothing more than sticks and stones, willingly it seems they faced fully armed soldiers at the ready to shoot them dead. Blood flowed in the streets.

But a large group of people singing and dancing can also be out of their minds, with joy. The trance state itself, therefore, is neutral. What makes it good or evil is what we do with it.

It is probably because of the dictionary meaning that the word has such a bad rap.

Obviously, in the trance it is possible to tap into powerful emotions which can be harnessed for good of ill, for better or for worse. In the 1960's, like many before us no doubt, this is what a group of us set out to do. What follows are some stories, anecdotes of what happened--and is still happening.


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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
ABOUT THE TRANCE STATE
======================
May I revise what I say above about the meaning of trance by adding: It is often said of people in riots: The mob was so angry, they seemed beside themselves, so out of their minds with anger that they acted as though they were crazy. Armed with nothing more than sticks and stones, willingly it seems they faced fully armed soldiers at the ready to shoot them dead. Blood flowed in the streets.

This is an emotional state you are describing, and typical of what some call trance or zombie like, or hypnotic such as in a science fiction or horror movie. Not typical of a spiritual meditative state described as the trance states in scripture.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

But a large group of people singing and dancing can also be out of their minds, with joy. The trance state itself, therefore, is neutral. What makes it good or evil is what we do with it.
You are speaking of apples and oranges. If one is out of their mind in joy, the inference is that when one is in their mind they are not in joy. (Being that everything of the mind/ego is relative to everything that is subjective, and joy being an objective detached state of awareness where both thoughts and emotions are witnessed and the Self is recognized as other than an emotion or a thought). Joy in the spiritual sense then is not an emotion, but rather freedom from the attachment to emotions according to scripture and achieved in the meditative state of prayer or spiritual trance.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

It is probably because of the dictionary meaning that the word has such a bad rap.
That and the fact that those who speak of joy and trance states have no idea of what they are speaking of if they have not experienced other than their personal opinion or definitions of either, while living in a box having been brain fed by teachers and preachers who know nothing of God, trance, or meditation and write definitions of God, trance, and other spiritual experiences in dictionaries. Ignorance is taught and absorbed while living in a box, it is not inherent.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

Obviously, in the trance it is possible to tap into powerful emotions which can be harnessed for good of ill, for better or for worse.

Only if one experiences the trance state as an emotional state and one filled with conditions of self measure. In a true meditative state there is only awareness of awareness, and emotions are experienced as the stress of attachment leaving the body at a cellular level, leaving the mind more relaxed and calm. Without the emotional influences of attachment to good and evil as a subjective and emotionally driven ideal one can be objective rather than subjective in their approach to the world. This allows one to focus without being distracted or to achieve goals without the baggage of emotional attachment to distractions.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
In the 1960's, like many before us no doubt, this is what a group of us set out to do. What follows are some stories, anecdotes of what happened--and is still happening.
In the '60's many were emotionally driven to change the world because of the judgment that prevailed in suppressing emotions and desire. It created an emotional and sexual revolution where reason was replaced with a new idealism based on freedom from the oppression of subjective belief systems or dogma. The western idealisms were being exposed to some of the Eastern spiritual traditions regarding spiritual inquiry and peace of mind as the point of reference for action rather than the belief and the emotional attachments to beliefs.
That was twisted into many ideas based on projections of the dictionary like interpretations of people who were raised in an environment filled with definition and reason.
The typical choice was to replace the attachment of one emotion with another and another idea for one that was emotionally restrictive to freedom of expression and the ego that wanted recognition and control where it had been stifled or repressed. This is similar to hypnotism where you direct the mind to focus on an idea and to ignore another which is still physically implanted within the nervous system. This temporarily relieves the mind from its attachment to the negative but doesn't remove it. Instead it lay buried in the subconscious only to resurface either in the current lifetime or another to be dealt with at a greater level of intellectual approach than that of relative and emotional judgments while standing outside of the experience of reality in the delusions of personal idealisms and or opinion.


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




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BTW, above I said, "The trance state itself, therefore, is neutral." IMO, the same is true of G0D.

In other words, there is no god out there, demanding that we worship and obey him, or her, before we can qualify to be blessed with favours.

Here is how I see it: GOD, IMO, is nothing more, or less, than pure love in action, not a superhuman being who makes demands of us.

It seems to me that this means that it is up to us to freely choose to connect with and to use all the god-like power there is available. This power is available and free for the asking. I feel it would be foolish of me not to do so.

The following anecdote will illustrate what I mean:

THE STORY
============
It was a Friday evening about 5 PM., when the phone rang. I was in the process of getting ready to take the family out to dinner.

The voice on the other end of the line was that a young teenager. When I said, hello, I could sense the desperation in her voice. When she told me who she was, I recognized her as a church member who came fairly regularly, and had taken the lectures on pneumatology, which I gave as a regular part of my teaching ministry. Her mother came, once in awhile, with the daughter's two-year old brother. The father never came. The family lived in a rented house. Obviously not well off, they lived near, if not below, the poverty line.

"Rev. King, I am calling from a pay phone, not far where we have lived, 'till now.", she said, "Dad has been without work for the last while and we got so far behind in our rent we have been evicted. We have no money, and I have no idea even where we can stay tonight. Can you help us. I feel so ashamed ... having to ask."

In response, I told her: "Let me pause for a moment to gather my thoughts ... " Then I went on: "I have a solution in mind, but before I tell you what it is, may I ask if you remember what we talked about in the pneumatology classes--about finding answers to the problems life often throws at us?"

"Yes!" she said, "You told us that God, is Spirit, not a human-like being; that Spirit is the source of all solutions to life problems; that if we opened ourselves to receive the answers we need, and if we actively pursued matters, not just by asking, but by using our imaginations to visualize the answers as coming to us, somehow--maybe from others. The answers needed are there for us...." She paused for a moment and, obviously in tears, added: "This is why I called you."

After she told me that she was more than willing to use her imagination to get things started I asked. "Is your mother nearby?" When she responded "yes!" I said, "let me speak to her. I want get her in on the whole process."

My chat with the youth's mothers was also a very positive one and she also agreed to use her imagination in the same way agreed on by her daughter. Then I asked: "What about your husband? ... May I talk with him? There more involved, the better."

The mother apologized and said: "He is not at all religious. He is very cynical about churches. They are just businesses, he says, and only interested in people with money."

"Perhaps some churches are. He may have had a bad experience with one. Never the less, let me have a word with him."

It took a minute or so, but they were able to get him to come to the phone.

"I just finished putting the last few items we own on the small truck I have....which I may have to sell" he said.

Briefly, without blaming him in any way, I went over the conversation I had had with his wife and daughter. I asked him to tell me what he thought of religion. He was very open about his attitude and was a bit embarrassed that his daughter had called me. Then I asked him if he was willing to join in the meditative process with his daughter and wife.

He responded: "I would feel like a hypocrite if I prayed now that I am in trouble ..."

I said, "I am not asking you to pray to a god..." I said, I am asking you to use your reason and your imagination." I sensed that he was surprised and relieved by this comment. He became more open.

Then this thought came to me to ask him: "Do believe it is the rational thing to do to use all the tools available to modern media? Tools like telephones, radios, computers and the like to help people find jobs, places to live, etc.?"

"Of course!" He said.

"Right now, your daughter used the phone to phone me, right? And you know what she asked ..."

When he acknowledged that he knew why she had phoned me, I asked him if, on his truck, he had mattresses, bedding and blankets and enough of other things to make do for the week-end-- I explained that social services are closed until Monday--He responded, "Yes, we do ..."

I said, "Good! Be at the church parking lot--it is not far from you--about 30 or 40 minutes from now. Here is my plan: I will let you in the church building. Another denomination rents the sanctuary and offices on Saturday, but there is a comfortable room, or two; and there is a kitchen where you can prepare food.

Get a good night's rest and I will talk to you and your family tomorrow and Sunday. Then we will make plans as to what we need to say to social services on Monday about their shelter program.

Then I said to the husband: "You say you do not believe in a god who answers prayers, but you do believe in computers which, if we know how to search, gives us information, agreed?"

"Yes!" he said.

"OK then" I said, "meanwhile, here is what I want you to do: Take five minutes and think of GOD--[I gave him my usual mini talk on this.]--as a very powerful computer with a search engine program. Visualize, imagine, that you are using this search engine to find a job and an affordable place to rent--no pleading with, or begging from, a god out there, OK?. Then leave it at that and I'll see you shortly, as arranged.

THIS FAST ACTION EVEN AMAZED ME
============================================
About one half hour later, just as I was getting my keys to go to the car and drive to the church, the phone ran.

"Rev, King, Jack here. Am I glad I got you before you left your house. I did as you said and that imaginary computer/search-engine exercise did the trick. I was amazed with the results. And so fast! You do not need to come to the church tonight.


"Shortly after I stopped using the imaginary computer and search engine I remembered a note that I had put in my wallet--It was well over a year ago. On the note was the name of a fellow trucker and friend--not close, but in my mind still a friend--who I met, and chatted with often, at a truck stop. More than once he invited me to give him a call, anytime.

"I had no idea where he was when I called tonight, but I did have his name and number. When I phoned he sounded really glad to hear from me. Then, with an apology, I explained to him what led me to make the call. I told him the whole situation of my family and me.

"His response really amazed me." He said:

"Since we met last I have struck it real lucky. I now own three trucks. You called me at precisely the right time. I need a driver. Come on out. The wife and I have no children, yet. We live in an old farm house which we just renovated, and which is about an hour and twenty minutes north west of Toronto.

"There plenty of room for you, your wife and two children. Thank that daughter of yours. Her call to that church has brought us together again. If your as good a man as I think you are, Jack, maybe, the good Lord willing, we can make this business grow.

"Anyway, we'll soon find out. Come and let's talk things over."










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