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#30164 - 04/04/09 03:25 AM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
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Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend
Some americans reject evolution for the same reason that some non-Americans reject it - a comic book understanding of what science is and how it works combined with a "knowledge" of evolution that amounts to barbershop gossip.
One would have to read a lot of comic books and indulge in a fair amount of barbershop gossip to be familiar with the lot.

What you focus on grows...
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#30176 - 04/05/09 02:49 AM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: Zephir]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
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Originally Posted By: Zephir
Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend
Nearly every message you post.
Do you really believe, I'm required to contact Bohm's students to derive something testable by using of implicate geometry?

What about the derivation of Godel's incompletness theorems?


Look. You insist that I am a mere dog compared to your immense intellect. Apparently there are a great many others who are your inferiors as well. Maybe, as you're following up on Bohm's work, just MAYBE one of his students might actually be able to have the slightest glimmer of hope to understand the true magnitude of your genius. I'm not saying they can prove anything. Surely they are not worthy of you. But if anyone in the whole word is going to understand you, it's probably them.

Despite my actual studies being in applied math, I'm reasonably familiar with Goedel's theorems. I have no idea what relation they have to what you're talking about. In fact, I have no idea what any of your sentences have to do with each other. As near as I can tell you are a random stupidity generator. But that's only because I am a dog and you are a god.

Dear God, please enlighten me with your brilliant exposition about Goedel's theorem. Does it prove AWT? Is it the by-product of density gradient in AWT? I'm sure it will make as little sense to me as everything else you've written. but maybe someone closer to your intellectual calibre could glean something - Tutor Turtle or Paul or ImRamCan.




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#30178 - 04/05/09 03:33 AM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend
but maybe someone closer to your intellectual calibre could glean something - Tutor Turtle or Paul or ImRamCan.


The barking dog can be recognized by anyone. That, takes very little intellectual discernment.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#30187 - 04/05/09 12:49 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Zephir Offline
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Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend
... I have no idea what relation they have to what you're talking about...
In my humble opinion, AWT is very trivial concept. But it still isn't apparently so trivial, or it would be recognized by myriads of brilliant minds a thousands years before. Here's still something, which prohibits common people to think in my way and this barrier in thinking is very interesting for me, because I personally consider a most of contemporary theories a way, way more complex, then the AWT...

Nevertheless, I wrote virtually thousands of posts about AWT on the web already - so everybody has a chance to read about it and learn it before putting another questions. The connection of implicate geometry and Gödel incompleteness theorems is explained here and here, for example..

In brief, every theory is defined by at least one implication, which defines it's causality arrow. Every implication consist of pair of postulates, who are required to be inconsistent mutually, or it could be replaced by single one and whole theory would become a tautology. By this way, every logical theory is based on inconsistency in thinking, or it couldn't exist at all. And this inconsistency would always manifest itself in less or distant perspective by appearance of tautological theorems (like the God, Aether, BigBang, evolution or whatever else).

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#30188 - 04/05/09 04:01 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
tff

Quote:
AWT? I'm sure it will make as little sense to me as everything else you've written. but maybe someone closer to your intellectual calibre could glean something - Tutor Turtle or Paul or ImRamCan.


AWT !!!

What???

Aether Waves , YES THE AETHER HAS WAVES THAT CAN BE FELT.

CAN BE DETECTED , ARE BEING DETECTED TO PREDICT LIGHTNING.

what we now call ion's is what used to be called the Aether.
or the ether or the electron sea.

but I dont know anything about a Aether Wave Theory , and Im
not interested in it.

This is the Earths energy and we should leave it alone.



_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#30189 - 04/05/09 05:38 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: paul]
Zephir Offline
Superstar

Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
I see, Yanomamo indians got internet..

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#30196 - 04/05/09 08:53 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: Zephir]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: Zephir
I see, Yanomamo indians got internet..


The end of innocence...
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#30197 - 04/05/09 10:01 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: Tutor Turtle]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
crikey

I was hopeing to keep a lid on it.

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#30213 - 04/06/09 01:02 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: paul]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...

"In my humble opinion, AWT is very trivial concept."
So *that's* what humility looks like!


"But it still isn't apparently so trivial, or it would be recognized by myriads of brilliant minds a thousands years before."

Or even now, apparently. Professional scientists are too brainwashed and the non-professional scientists don't know enough to understand you.


"The connection of implicate geometry and Gödel incompleteness theorems is explained here and here, for example.."

Now that's a surprise - explanations that don't explain anything!
The closer you are to something I actually know about (GIT), the more apparent it becomes that you are a random stupidity generator. But I am only a dog.

I'm not exactly a dog whisperer, but it's true I have spent a lot of time with them. And, yes, they do make a lot more sense to me than you do.

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#30215 - 04/06/09 01:40 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Zephir Offline
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Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend
..explanations that don't explain anything..
You should prove, my explanation doesn't explain anything.

Every theory is defined by at least one implication, which defines it's causality arrow. Every implication consist of pair of postulates, which are required to be inconsistent mutually, or they could be replaced by single one and whole theory would become a tautology. In this way, every logical theory is based on inconsistency in thinking - or it couldn't exist at all. And this inconsistency would always manifest itself in less or distant perspective by appearance of tautological theorems in theory.

From which sentence my explanation has become incomprehensible for you?

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#30221 - 04/07/09 01:12 AM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: Zephir]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
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Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
"Every implication consist of pair of postulates, which are required to be inconsistent mutually, or they could be replaced by single one and whole theory would become a tautology."

Can you give a reference to an actual logician who agrees with that statement?

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#30223 - 04/07/09 05:54 AM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia


"Every implication consist of pair of postulates, which are required to be inconsistent mutually, or they could be replaced by single one and whole theory would become a tautology."

In my opinion this is not only not a logical statement, it is also factually incorrect, if only because inconsistency does not necessarily imply similarity.




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#30227 - 04/07/09 08:18 AM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Zephir Offline
Superstar

Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend
...Can you give a reference to an actual logician who agrees with that statement?
You told us, my statement has no meaning - so it's just your job to prove it. The true value of my statement is different story and it has no meaning to solve it, until you prove your claim (true value of statements with no meaning remains undefined).

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#30228 - 04/07/09 08:21 AM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: Ellis]
Zephir Offline
Superstar

Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
Originally Posted By: Ellis
inconsistency does not necessarily imply similarity
Similarity has nothing to do with consistency. I never disputed a "similarity" here, so I don't understand, why you're introducing such category into discussion. Can you explain it in more detail?
Originally Posted By: Ellis
this is not only not a logical statement, it is also factually incorrect

If my statement is factually incorrect, it would mean, it has a logical meaning. You cannot miss the both: the meaning of claim and true value of claim.

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#30232 - 04/07/09 01:22 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: Zephir]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
Zephir,
The word "nonsense" has several definitions. It can mean that an idea is unintelligible, which is much of what you say or it can mean that your idea is absurd. It's not anyone else's job to prove that your statements are not nonsense. It's your job to prove that your statements DO make sense. At that you have failed miserably.


"You told us, my statement has no meaning - so it's just your job to prove it."
It would be a lot better if you were to demonstrate that your statements do have meaning. This is only the first of your statements in that single paragraph that is wrong.

I quoted you in the following:
"Every implication consist of pair of postulates, which are required to be inconsistent mutually, or they could be replaced by single one and whole theory would become a tautology."

This statement is itself almost a tautology, but a misleading one. It could be replaced with the simpler and more correct statement, "Implications are tautologies or they are false."

However, it overlooks a few things. First, it's okay for an implication to be a tautology. Second, a scientific theory is different from a mathematical theorem.

Third, in mathematics (or logic), true implications are always tautologies. There is no guarantee (or implication, if you will) that mathematically true statements (or any mathematical relations) have any correspondence with the physics of the universe.

Fourth, scientific theories, contain 'potential' inconsistencies, not necessarily 'actual' inconsistencies. This is because while mathematical systems are very simple and we already know all the rules and can make necessary deductions, science develops models (theories) where we don't know every case and every possible deduction.





Edited by TheFallibleFiend (04/07/09 03:25 PM)

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#30238 - 04/07/09 11:12 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
I left out the obvious case (GIT) when I wrote:
"Implications are tautologies or they are false."

"Implications are tautologies or they are false OR THEY ARE INDETERMINATE."

and I forgot to mention that if scientific theories (which contain potential inconsistencies) are found to have actual inconsistencies, then either the assumptions have to questions or the theory is falsified. The falsification can be minor in which case minor modification to the theory might fix it, or the falsification can be catastrophic, in which case the theory must be rejected.


Edited by TheFallibleFiend (04/07/09 11:16 PM)

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#30247 - 04/08/09 08:16 AM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Zephir Offline
Superstar

Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend
...It's not anyone else's job to prove that your statements are not nonsense...
Of course. So you can ignore my theory safely, but at the moment, you're claiming whatever, you're expected to prove it. If you don't like, what I'm saying, simply don't say, it's a nonsense - or it's just you, who is expected to prove such statements.
Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend
...It would be a lot better if you were to demonstrate that your statements do have meaning. ...
I has no meaning to demonstrate it for silly dogs - they wouldn't understand it anyway. But at the moment, these dogs are sufficiently clever to argument, my statements have no meaning, I'm willing to prove the opposite. Such stance has some meaning, don't you think?
Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend
... "Implications are tautologies or they are false"...
We can convert this claim to statement: "If some statement is implication, it's a tautology or it's false". By AWT every theory is correct, if it's using a correct assumptions extrapolated by robust logic. But as we know, every different assumptions are inconsistent mutually, or they could be replaced by single one. It means, every theory is wrong, or it's selfereferencing tautology in less or more distant perspective. In this way, validity of every theory is just a temporal, until we cannot find a way, how their postulates are connected mutually.

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#30254 - 04/08/09 07:35 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: Zephir]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...

"I'm willing to prove the opposite."
But you haven't.

It's pretty clear that you do not have the same definition of terms or the same conceptual understanding of professional scientists and mathematicians.

You have the standard response of the delusional person:
If a scientists rejects your claims, you say it's because they are brainwashed. If a non-scientist rejects your claims, you say it's because they don't understand.

Apparently, everyone else is a dog compared to your immense intellect. It seems like you don't even have a comic book understanding of GIT, but it only seems that way to people who follow definitions used by actual logicians.

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#30255 - 04/08/09 09:44 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Zephir Offline
Superstar

Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend
..everyone else is a dog compared to your immense intellect..
You've no arguments, just a feelings. Why I should argument against someone's feeling?

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#30256 - 04/08/09 10:10 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: Zephir]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
"You've no arguments..."
I explained how you didn't know what you were talking about. You responded with more nonsense. You are impervious to logic.

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