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We humans are meaning creating creatures. We have competed with nature from the moment that we found our ego. Our competition has been with the outer world of nature and with the inner world that nature has given us.

We humans have created a technology removed from nature and one that I suspect will soon destroy our self and perhaps much of natural life on this planet.

I am convinced that if we do not quickly become sophisticated enough to recognize our problem we and perhaps all of life on this planet will become toast.

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Originally Posted By: coberst
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We humans are meaning creating creatures. We have competed with nature from the moment that we found our ego.

The nature of humanity is that it reflects the nature of reality. It cannot compete since it is part of reality. It can only reflect nature.
Originally Posted By: coberst
Our competition has been with the outer world of nature and with the inner world that nature has given us.

The outer is a reflection of the inner. We seem to compete only when we believe the outer is separate from the inner but that is the illusion of the ego.
Originally Posted By: coberst

We humans have created a technology removed from nature and one that I suspect will soon destroy our self and perhaps much of natural life on this planet.

You seem to isolate nature to the surface appearances of this planet rather than the mechanics of the universe. If we destroy this planet humanity will continue somewhere else. That is the nature of the universe and the reflection of consciousness in human form.
Originally Posted By: coberst

I am convinced that if we do not quickly become sophisticated enough to recognize our problem we and perhaps all of life on this planet will become toast.
It wouldn't be the first time human evolution included self destruction, or the destruction of an entire planet.


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coberst-- Could you please define what you mean by the term 'nature'?

Last edited by Ellis; 08/20/09 04:35 AM. Reason: spelling again!
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Humans are the first creatures evolving from nature that has the ability to act beyond the boundries of instinctive emotions. Humans are the first creatures with the power to ac freely of natures hard wired directives. Humans have created meaning wrapped in symbols and it is this world of artifically created symbolism that operates beyond the complete control of nature.

The virtual world, the world of symbolic meaning, the world of non deterministic reality, is the world beyond the natural world. Ego is what has made such a world possible.

Ego says, HOLD IT, TIME OUT, while I examine the situation to determine if I want to change the siuation.

The ego is our command center; it is the “internal gyroscope” and creator of time for the human. It controls the individual; especially it controls individual’s response to the external environment. It keeps the individual independent from the environment by giving the individual time to think before acting. It is the device that other animal do not have and thus they instinctively respond immediately to the world.

The id is our animal self. It is the human without the ego control center. The id is reactive life and the ego changes that reactive life into delayed thoughtful life. The ego is also the timer that provides us with a sense of yesterday, today, and tomorrow. By doing so it makes us into philosophical beings conscious of our self as being separate from the ‘other’ and placed in a river of time with a terminal point—death. This time creation allows us to become creatures responding to symbolic reality that we alone create.

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Coberst,

Those views are clearly anthropocentric,which your "embodiment" argument seeks to avoid. Since the latter is reductionist, you have the philosophical problem of explaining how a reductionist "mind" can transcend its own "natural limits".

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Originally Posted By: coberst
Humans are the first creatures evolving from nature that has the ability to act beyond the boundries of instinctive emotions.
This idea implies there is something greater than the ego and that the ego can be subservient rather than the master of cognitive ability. It also implies that humans are a part of nature since they can evolve, rather than separate from it. It also contains the often ignored reality that nature includes Self awareness and that it (nature) is in itself self aware, which also leads to the possibility to cognize that nature is in itself a reflection of itself in all areas of cognitive function and its possible levels of experience.
Evolution then, contained to Darwinian theory would limit nature to a process of materialism rather than the reality that materialism is perceived at the level of the ego based on whether the ego is the master or the servant.
Originally Posted By: coberst
Humans are the first creatures with the power to act freely of natures hard wired directives.
Nature has no directives. It has what are called natural laws or laws that support certain types and levels of experience of itself.
In other words if you have only one finger the ability of the hand is limited, but if the hand has five fingers its potential is increased. Self awareness is limited when it cuts off 4 of its fingers to insist that reality is derived and manipulated and comprehended by a hand with one finger. Free will allows one to pick a room with all the components in it that will either limit or enhance the senses, to either isolate ones self from nature or realize nature as the self. It allows one to believe they are a product of happenstance and subject to the circumstances that are of fortune or fate, or to take command and make of themselves and the world what they will.
Originally Posted By: coberst
Humans have created meaning wrapped in symbols and it is this world of artifically created symbolism that operates beyond the complete control of nature.

Humans create all types of meanings and ideas regarding nature and its limits or of its separation from humanity. It is nature that supports these illusions.And it is Nature that Humans are that have control over Nature. There are no limits to the human condition that are not self imposed.
Originally Posted By: coberst

The virtual world, the world of symbolic meaning, the world of non deterministic reality, is the world beyond the natural world. Ego is what has made such a world possible.
And nature supports both experiences in reality, the one of the virtual and the one of the un-manifest or world of possibility, or awareness of awareness above and beyond the limits and boundaries of the virtual world that is subjective in the isolation of identification with materialism that is the ego deluded one finger on the hand world.
Originally Posted By: coberst

Ego says, HOLD IT, TIME OUT, while I examine the situation to determine if I want to change the siuation.
Actually ego sometimes in its belief in evolution identifies the flow of free will as personal, and limits all possibility to the finite realm of personal perceptions based on the personal identity of I am the sum of my experiences and humanity is the sum of democratic idealism based on such and such an authority. There is the impulse of free will that allows the ego to translate the nature of reality into the confines of the personal domain separating nature from ones self but that is just an idea.
Originally Posted By: coberst

The ego is our command center; it is the “internal gyroscope” and creator of time for the human.
It appears that way when one has absorbed such beliefs in the psyche as they are defined by Freud.
Originally Posted By: coberst
It controls the individual; especially it controls individual’s response to the external environment. It keeps the individual independent from the environment by giving the individual time to think before acting. It is the device that other animal do not have and thus they instinctively respond immediately to the world.
All animals have an ego. The human ego is just tied to a more evolved mechanism of comprehension or awareness of self. The ego in itself is a construct of the imagination and it really has no control that is not given to it by the Greater Self or universal mind. It is just a simple move in the awareness to circumvent the stress related subconscious programs that give the ego the illusion of so much power over free will.
Originally Posted By: coberst

The id is our animal self. It is the human without the ego control center. The id is reactive life and the ego changes that reactive life into delayed thoughtful life.
This is the twist Freud made regarding the nature of humanity which is really the spirit or first cause. By eliminating anything that is not physical he reduces the essence of humanity to its animalistic beginnings as determined by the idea of the Darwinian type of evolution where one believes humanity has no source other than the primordial ooze, and the universe is the result of random ocurrences that just happen to come into an operative condition of order.
Originally Posted By: coberst
The ego is also the timer that provides us with a sense of yesterday, today, and tomorrow. By doing so it makes us into philosophical beings conscious of our self as being separate from the ‘other’ and placed in a river of time with a terminal point—death. This time creation allows us to become creatures responding to symbolic reality that we alone create.
It also allows us to be self/Self reflective and aware of the greater Self above and beyond the materialistic reality of animal evolved into biped with a notion. It allows one to recognize order within the universe and to also recognize that it is connected in more ways than that are defined as material to the universe, not only as a participant but as a creator. It is the mechanism that brings universal mind or the uncreated unmanifest impulse of possibility that is order, which also creates and facilitates experience, or the understanding of cause and effect of the knower, the known and the process of knowing.


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coberst- I asked for a definition of 'nature' and got a dissertation that reads like Psychology 101.

eccles sums it up beautifully.. and you have, in fact, reduced the question I asked to the specificity of your own id. Quite a feat!

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Rank’s will psychology throws meaningful light on psychological foundation of epistemology and ethics—leading to a philosophy of the psychic—the creation of individuality in “rebirth experience” as being the actual creative act—in this act the psychic ego is born out of the biological corporal ego thus moving from creature to creator—i.e. creator of his own personality.

There is movement from competition with nature to artistic creation of reality which we call civilization—his competition becomes with himself—the inner world becomes an independent power which seeks to alter the external world to more correspond to the inner—this is more creation than adaptation and can be comprehended as will phenomena.

“In this sense civilized man, even if he fights the outside world, is no longer opposed to a natural enemy but at bottom to himself, to his own creation, as he finds himself mirrored, particularly in manners and customs, morality and conventions, social and cultural institutions.” 211

This idea is based upon the assumption that our inner world in our creation of it slowly becomes a power independent of the outer world, which we constantly try to modify to suit our inner reality. This is not adaption but is creation, which can be called ‘will phenomena’.

This is movement from Freudian id which is subject to natural laws under guise of “repetition compulsion” while personality “consists of identifications which form the basis of the parental super-ego”—to move beyond the super-ego morality to an ideal formation to a personality that guides—he evolves the ego ideal from self-chosen factors consciously strived for.212

Quickie from Wiki: “Repetition compulsion is psychological phenomenon in which a person repeats a traumatic event or its circumstances over and over again. This includes reenacting the event or putting oneself in situations that have a high probability of the event occurring again. This "re-living" can also take the form of dreams, repeating the story of what happened, and even hallucination.

This concept was noted formally by Sigmund Freud in his 1920 essay “Beyond the Pleasure Principle,” in which he observed a child throw his favorite toy from his crib, become upset at the loss, then reel the toy back, only to repeat this action again.”

Quotes from Will Therapy and Truth and Reality by Otto Rank

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