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#30598 - 05/04/09 02:53 AM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Ain't wikipedia great?
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#30599 - 05/04/09 08:38 AM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: Tutor Turtle]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
Heideggar is particularly difficult.

Those interested might like to dip into these Berkeley audio lectures

http://webcast.berkeley.edu/course_details.php?seriesid=1906978475
(You can skip the local admin chat which starts every session The first session for example really starts about 30 mins in).

From this emerges the concept of Dasein of both "living within a framework" and "taking a stand on that framework".


Edited by eccles (05/04/09 08:48 AM)

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#30600 - 05/04/09 11:23 AM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: eccles]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
IS GØD AS SPIRIT WHAT WE CALL THE VACUUM? IN WHAT SENSE IS GØD A THING? Check out http://www.redefinegod.com/forum/topics/finding-darwins-god?page=2&commentId=855906%3AComment%3A64259&x=1#855906Comment64259
========================
In the forum RE-DEFINING GOD, I write as a theologian, pneumatologist and philosopher with a deep interest in, and curiosity about, the sciences. I asked any scientist, willing to answer some questions I have about the nature of SPACE and what we call the VACUUM. The following is a re-edited version of the excellent dialogue taking place.

I asked: Did the primordial ball of matter--I presume it was matter--which scientists tell us "EXPANDED" into what we call the cosmos, start of as a thing? And, did it come into being mysteriously, out of the no-thing, out of the vacuum, which I call GOD, or GØD?

Without being dogmatic, I say: It came out of the no-thing, GØD.

Interestingly, I got several responses from James S. Saint, apparently well versed in science and technology. He wrote:
Quote:
It came out of the empty nothingness, GØD, and you are right. I can even go through the explanation as to how and why that "Bang" came about. Although being logical, it cannot be said to be scientific because I would have to actually produce a Big Bang in order to demonstrate the physical validity of the logic. I am sure that I can't remember enough of the mathematics any more but the reasoning isn't that difficult.

But your GØD IS a thing in a sense, in that ALL things come from that "stuff", "aether", "emptiness of space", "fabric of space"... This is a logically and mathematically provable theory although extremely impractical to prove via demonstration.
Then he added
Quote:
Actually, let me try to give an explanation void of any math, just to get you into the playing field.

Imagine a swimming pool on an extremely calm day. You place into the pool a number of transducers made to merely cause waves in the pool at a chosen frequency.
I asked myself, what is a transducer? Here is an answer I found:
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-transducers.htm
Quote:
At first, you turn on one transducer at perhaps 1 cycle per sec. and watch the waves travel throughout the former still water surface. They reflect around quite a bit, but there is no question that the waves are present.

But then you decide to see what happens as you turn on more transducers at different frequencies.

You notice that as you turn more and more transducers on, the waves become more chaotic, but are still obviously there.

Finally you decide to see just where all of this would lead is you just kept adding more and more waves at random frequencies to each other.

The surface of the water, as you add more, becomes less like waves and more like short peaks and spikes with no noticeable direction of wave motion. The more you add, you begin to notice that the height of those peaks seems to be getting less and less as more and more of them cover the surface.

If you could add enough (an infinite number preferred), you would see those peaks gradually get smaller and smaller in height and greater and greater in number.

Eventually you would be able to see no waves at all and in the infinite case, the water's surface would again be perfectly still as the peaks have become of zero height and infinite in number.

Where you started is where you end up, yet all you did was make waves the entire time (sounds like the youth of America, huh).

The point to this is that for anything to have affect on anything else, it must be a "noticeable wave". For you to see one of the waves it had to be different from its surroundings in some way. The same is true for all electromagnetic waves.

If you add enough random electromagnetic waves together, they add up to zero influence and have no potential to be observed or to effect anything - empty space.

The ONLY existence is the disturbance of the "nothingness" or the "aether". This can be logically determined to be what absolutely must be true regardless of anything Science could ever discover.

Thus existence as you know it, all came from and could become again, the nothingness of the calm sea of empty space (aether stuffins).
Perhaps GØD is the ultimate transducer, like the Hebrew word 'ELOHIM' (all powers) indicates.

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#30601 - 05/04/09 03:08 PM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: Revlgking]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
In my opinion if God exists, He would necessarily to work
in an Absolute Reference Frame and had set of physical
and mathematical laws to create everything in the Universe.
If we find and understand this Absolute God’s House then
is possible to find and understand these Cod’s Laws.
============= . .
Your opinion . . .my opinion . .. his / her opinion . . .
Your meaning . . .my meaning . .. his / her meaning . . .
The opinion of opinion . . . . .
The meaning of meaning . . . . .
And so is endless.
Why?
Because quantum of light, light wave and other particles
and other waves must act in some Absolute Reference Frame . . .
. . . . . .the origin of the Universe, the origin of the Cosmic
Microwave Background Frame, . . . .the origin of everything.

All debates are nonsense without an Absolute Reference Frame.
====================== . .
If you want to understand what God is then search
for an Absolute Reference Frame.
============ . .

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#30606 - 05/05/09 02:02 AM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: socratus]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Thanks, Socratus. As my friend at http://www.redefinegod.com/forum/topics/finding-darwins-god?page=2&commentId=855906%3AComment%3A64259&x=1#855906Comment64259 put it to me
Quote:
But your GØD IS a thing in a sense, in that ALL things come from that "stuff", "aether", "emptiness of space", "fabric of space"...
His use of the acronym with the Ø, the set without numbers, the null, gives me the confidence to keep on using it.

Now, the next question is: If GØD, as matter, is the Source of all matter, what is the practical value of this concept. I think it has great practical value. It takes theology and pneumatology out of the hands of the dogmatist and ritualists--those who would have us believe without questioning and without evidence. Personally, I want an evidence-based theology and spirituality.

BTW, I happen to have a hard-cover copy of James Michener's novel, The Source (1965), which I read years ago. The first section is all about EL (the source), the root of ELOHIM (The Hebrew for the POWERS).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Source_(novel)


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#30607 - 05/05/09 04:09 AM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: Revlgking]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415

Now, the next question is: If GØD, as matter, is the Source of all matter, what is the practical value of this concept. I think it has great practical value. It takes theology and pneumatology out of the hands of the dogmatist and ritualists--those who would have us believe without questioning and without evidence. Personally, I want an evidence-based theology and spirituality.
[/quote]
================================
I like this point of view.

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#30608 - 05/05/09 05:06 AM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: socratus]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
"Personally, I want an evidence-based theology and spirituality." (socratus)

Isn't there something in the Bible or somewhere about belief being the foundation of true faith? Read St John, Ch 20, Verse 29- where Thomas gets told by Jesus that he needs to believe without verification. Lack of belief means there can be no god, and if you can't believe without proof than you are an unbeliever-- or, from what I have seen here, likely to be a scientist.

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#30615 - 05/05/09 11:38 AM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: Revlgking


Now, the next question is: If GØD, as matter, is the Source of all matter, what is the practical value of this concept. I think it has great practical value. It takes theology and pneumatology out of the hands of the dogmatist and ritualists--those who would have us believe without questioning and without evidence. Personally, I want an evidence-based theology and spirituality.
I think the value of reducing God to matter and its creator is that self evidence can be applied to any belief and or any religion so that such a system may make a claim to their personal perceptions. Unfortunately this won't unite religions or the personal as long as individuality continues to make a claim to the appearance and manifestation of their God. To expand God beyond the personal perception and unite all personal perceptions would take a bit more than to reduce God to matter and it's creator.
Something like surrendering the personal to that which preceded the personality.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#30617 - 05/05/09 04:09 PM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: Ellis]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Originally Posted By: Ellis


Isn't there something in the Bible or somewhere about belief being the foundation of true faith? Read St John, Ch 20, Verse 29- where Thomas gets told by Jesus that he needs to believe without verification. Lack of belief means there can be no god, and if you can't believe without proof than you are an unbeliever-- or, from what I have seen here, likely to be a scientist.

=============================
Isn't there something in the Bible or somewhere about
belief being the foundation of true faith?
!!!
Read St John, Ch 20, Verse 29- where Thomas gets told
by Jesus that he needs to believe without verification.
!!!
Lack of belief means there can be no god, and if you
can't believe without proof than you are an unbeliever —
or, from what I have seen here, likely to be a scientist.
!!!

Socratus.
To believe without verification. . . . .
To believe without proof ( scientific ) . . .

. . . . . I believe because it is absurd.
/ Tertullian. (ca.160 – ca.220 AD) /

Why didn’t the formula E=Mc^2 was written in the Bible?
Can God be atheist, governed by scientific laws?
Can God be Materialist?
Have physicists found the God?
Is it possible to understand the Religion
with physical formulas and laws ?

The XX! Century needs answers of these questions.

We live in modern scientific world and I think
the Science/ Physics will purify the religion of the “dross”.
I think the science will prove the truth of the Religion's basic.
Of course, at first the Physics must understand all its own paradoxes.
===============. .
#
" I want to know how God created this world.
I am not interested in this or that phenomenon,
in the spectrum of this or that element.
I want to know His thoughts; the rest are details."
/Einstein/
#
" Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me ".
========== . .


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#30622 - 05/05/09 10:25 PM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: Ellis
"Personally, I want an evidence-based theology and spirituality." (socratus)

Isn't there something in the Bible ...if you can't believe without proof then you are an unbeliever-- or, from what I have seen here, likely to be a scientist.

============================================
Ellis, keep in mind that, in my opinion, the Bible is not A book--that is, the kind of book that we know. Bible scholars agree: the Bible is a complex collection of 66 disparate documents, not all of which are books. These documents were collected over more than 2000 years, or more.

Is the Bible "the Word of God"?

Get serious! Calling THE Bible "the Word of God" is, in my opinion, not unlike calling a collection of any newspaper--for example, "the New York Times", the "word of God".

I do not now, nor have I ever, accepted the Bible as the word of GOD, literally speaking.

Like the media, the Bible is the word of those who wrote it.

For me, GOD/GØD (The unit&the whole) is Being itself, not someone who speaks words.

_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#30623 - 05/06/09 02:43 AM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
a) I am at a loss to understand what Socratus was trying to say. I've waded through it twice--- I can read the words OK, but they just don't make any sense when linked together.

b) I can see your point Rev. I, as you know, do not believe that the Bible is the word of God, but I thought that the incident with Thomas, inconvenient though it may be to those who wish to ignore it, is accepted as the words of Jesus. Who may or not be a god, or a son of a god, depending on personal belief. It is surely belief in what ever it is that one believes in that is the foundation of personal faith. And without personal faith there can be no belief. Therefore it is possible, indeed encumbant that a believer believes! With or without proof!


Edited by Ellis (05/06/09 02:45 AM)
Edit Reason: typo- still can't type!

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#30624 - 05/06/09 03:27 AM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Perhaps we should let Socratus clarify his own thinking. But I will hazard the guess that he is conflicted, and has a problem writing in English. On the one hand, he wants to believe in the teachings of Orthodoxy, but on the other, knows that such teachings, often, do not harmonize with the findings of science.

By the way, Socratus, what is your mother tongue?


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#30634 - 05/09/09 06:43 AM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Yes you could be right Rev-- I am very willing to let Socratus, or anyone, clarify his/her thinking, however his/her act in posting here does seem to suggest he/she wishes to engage in dialogue with the other posters, and his/her replies are, at the least, very disjointed.

I do not think Socratus lacks fluency. He/she has a vocab that I would love to have in another language as I am a completely monolingual person, (and ashamed to admit it).

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#30641 - 05/09/09 10:36 PM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Ellis, keep in mind that Socratus wrote: "Personally, I want an evidence-based theology and spirituality."

I repeat what I have said, often: So do I. This is why I equate GOD with Being--what I am experiencing with ALL my senses--physically, mentally and spiritually.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#30642 - 05/09/09 10:52 PM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
BTW, the following thread: "Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including ..." is a thread I started awhile ago using my wife's maiden name, Turner, now has over 914,000 clicks on it.

Does anyone know: how come I cannot access it. Just curious.

Here is the response I got: "Internal Server Error.
The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request.

Please contact the server administrator, webmaster@scienceagogo.com and inform them of the time the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may have caused the error."

I did try to contact the webmaster, and got no response.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#30649 - 05/10/09 05:16 AM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: Revlgking]
Amaranth Rose II Offline

Superstar

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 962
Loc: Southeast Nebraska, USA
Rev, the forum was hacked, and the whole thing had to be reset. Try it now.
_________________________
If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose


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#30673 - 05/14/09 02:37 PM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: Amaranth Rose II]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Yes! It works now. But when I click on the thread on "Philosophy of religion, all religions..." by Turner (I used my wife's maiden name), which now has 925,000 clicks, I get the following. Is the problem with my personal computer?
============================
Internal Server Error
The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request.

Please contact the server administrator, webmaster@scienceagogo.com and inform them of the time the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may have caused the error.

More information about this error may be available in the server error log.
================
Where is the error log?
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#30675 - 05/14/09 09:27 PM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: Revlgking]
Amaranth Rose II Offline

Superstar

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 962
Loc: Southeast Nebraska, USA
Revljking,
I clicked on "Philosophy of religion, all religions..." and got it to come up right away. Perhaps it was just a burp of the server. Why don't you try again?

Amaranth
_________________________
If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose


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#30682 - 05/16/09 10:07 PM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: Amaranth Rose II]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
I got the same response as before. It gets curiouser and curiouser! Here is a suggestion: You send a message to the topic and we will see what happens, okay?

BTW, what is "hacking"? Any explanation as to why this happened? What is a "Spider"?


Edited by Revlgking (05/16/09 10:12 PM)

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#30686 - 05/17/09 06:22 AM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: unknownuniverse]
Kevat Shah Offline
Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 37
Loc: Grenada
Originally Posted By: unknownuniverse
I have had thoughts of this universe without life, everything without life. I think to myself, "What am I without life?". Nobody I have talked to really understands what I mean. So I have came here looking for a person that can relate to these thoughts. If you can, I would really appreciate a talk with you. Even if you can't relate, can you tell me if I am mentally crazy? However, please don't think about this topic to much, it will probably haunt you. It has been coming back to me for ages, and many of those times it has left me afraid, and sometimes even in tears.


Hey unknownuniverse, do you still think about this? Does it ever lead you to question the meaning of life?
_________________________
- Kevat Shah

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