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Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend
"Ah then nothing is a threat in a discussion and there is no need to defend or command, only discuss."
Then you have nothing to whine about.

Wouldn't think of it!
Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend

"You still have not identified what real science..."
Not my job.

No? Just to defend it then. You might want to skip over to the Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... thread. Socratus just used the "G" word and applied it to his discussion of physics. Looks like a job for the science police...
Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend

You could go do some homework on it, but that would require learning science instead of just spouting spiritual blather and calling it science.
Or Said another way.."I could spout scientific blather and we still wouldn't get you any closer to a definition of science, because you'd still complain and label it comic book science if it didn't come from an authority of your own and it wasn't qualified as imperfect and most importantly never spoken out loud."
Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend

"By the way have we determined what 'alive' means yet?"
I have a working, but imperfect definition. Few scientists would claim their definition is perfect, though. If I followed no logic or asinine logic, I suppose we could infer that it can mean anything you wish.
When one isn't constrained by logic or education words can mean whatever you wish.
No we have already approached the definition of science this way and it hasn't really accomplished anything. Not saying anything and calling "that" the scientific approach doesn't really give meaning, let alone clarify meaning. I was hoping for something we could apply to that which creation emerges from and yet is still embedded within creation. That which is and has "Order" or direction, and that which is in all matter and gives human awareness the ability to recognize itself as more than a something or a nothing. That might get us closer to it.


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Here's something of interest. An advertisement, an "Of Interest" banner on the forum advertising one to sign up for a free trial to learn Classical Hebrew.

It reads "Classical Hebrew.com" Learn Biblical Hebrew Online, with Israels best teachers.


Could lead to an understanding of spiritual sciences if one could read the language of spiritual studies.

Convenient that it was displayed on this forum and in this thread.


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Quote:
spiritual sciences


you need to go for a long walk in the woods , sit down and think about this , would you really want spirituality to become a science , or to even be connected to science in any way.

to be observed scientifically spirituality would cease to exist.

spirituality would no longer be spiritual but physical.





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It's not my job to do your homework for you - and it defeats the purpose. The compulsion to just make 'stuff' up (MSU) is overwhelming in some people and this tendency is what they think of as science. A friend and former coworker used to play a game with his little brother that started off as shoot-em-up where the brother would say, "Tin-like I shot you" and he would say, "Tin-like I dodged" and his brother would go on with maybe something along the lines of "tin-like my bullet is a missile with computer tracking" and so on back and forth.

If one were genuinely interested in science, one could learn the subject matter, what the limitations of science are, how it works, why it is the way it is and not any other, dissect examples, solve problems, learn the methodology, understand what makes good science and what has failed - and why, study the history of science, form tentative hypotheses, etc. In all of your messages, there is not the faintest hint that you have studied science or that you have any understanding of it. The appearance is that you have read some spiritualist or other supernatural materials that commonly make use of scientific sounding jargon in ways that would be amusing were they written by a child, but utterly delusional when conveyed by an adult. Your every message reads as a game of tin-like. "Tin-like I understand string theory and tin-like I have the truth and tin-like those who don't listen are just mathematical folk who are intimidated by my profound insights of cosmic truthiness."

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Originally Posted By: paul


you need to go for a long walk in the woods , sit down and think about this , would you really want spirituality to become a science , or to even be connected to science in any way.

If you knew the depth of what Spiritual science is you could answer the question yourself but you don't so you can't. Besides you don't believe me now so why would any answer I gave you have any meaning? It would appear that without peer review none of your own thoughts or ideas would have any substantial value, due to the scientific claim that a personal definition is imperfect, then unless substantiated by the peer group as a quorum I would imagine it would be an imperfect quorum.
Originally Posted By: paul

to be observed scientifically spirituality would cease to exist.

spirituality would no longer be spiritual but physical.

Actually to be observed scientifically everything material is seen as spiritually derived. Materialists just can't quite grok the concept when it is put in those words, nor do materialists trust their own senses.


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RE: "TIN LIKE"

I have to say that is an imaginative game, and I concur that some people like to make stuff up. If we look at the many ways the human species tends to get lost in its imagination then we can easily discern that without knowledge there follows lack of experience. And without substantial experience knowledge is always suspect to validation. If we must be validated by others before we find our own strength to self validate, then I would imagine the process will always be suspect to the judgment of an imperfect function of perceptibility.

Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend
"The appearance is that you have read some spiritualist or other supernatural materials that commonly make use of scientific sounding jargon"
I would have to say that by relying on appearances that it would appear contradictory to your lack of explanation regarding the definition of science and consistent with what you insist is not science. If you trust your senses implicitly even beyond any substantial material proof then I would say you are beginning to wander into the realm of personal documentation or that of your own experience. The use of intuition and listening to the voice inside of you without the reliance of peer review to tell you which of your thoughts are real and which aren't. Although without any peer review regarding sense refinement and awareness thru intuition being real it might be scary to remain their for very long without withdrawing to the safety of democratic process. After all could there be a standard or an authority to follow regarding self determination?


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Quote:
If you knew the depth of what Spiritual science is you could answer the question yourself


I would think that only spirits would know the depth of Spiritual science , if they have such in the Spiritual world.
Quote:
but you don't so you can't.


How do you know? , are you communicating with Spiritual Scientist through some medium or a quigi board or some other means of Spirtual communication , or do you just know these things?

Quote:
Besides you don't believe me now


would it really make a difference if I believed you , or if I believed who ever you got this Spiritual science stuff from?

I dont know if there is anything scientific about the
spiritual world because.

1) I cannot see-feel-hear it / them .

2) no one else can.

3) you cant.

4) if you are listening to the voices in your head , you are just listening to your head , no one else.

Quote:
It would appear that without peer review none of your own thoughts or ideas would have any substantial value


sure they do , they have value to me , even if no one else finds any value in them.

Quote:
Actually to be observed scientifically everything material is seen as spiritually derived.


Spiritually derived or not is not the point here , by using the term Spiritual science you are suggesting that the physical can observe the Spiritual.

you are constantly asking TFF to provide answers to your questions , now I ask that you provide a example of the physical observing the Spiritual that has been duly noted in a science journal or any other form of documentation.

a picture , a recording , a interview with a Spirit.

if there has been a science that EVOLVED from all the gathered DATA of the evidence of Spiritual encounters then
please allow us to be enlightened.



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Originally Posted By: paul
Quote:
If you knew the depth of what Spiritual science is you could answer the question yourself


I would think that only spirits would know the depth of Spiritual science , if they have such in the Spiritual world.

There you go, and to complete this, there is nothing that is not permeated with such. Tho spirit is not exactly a word science would use or accept. Possibly "Order" and maybe something within the working model of FF's imperfect definition of what is alive.
Quote:
but you don't so you can't.

Originally Posted By: paul

How do you know? , are you communicating with Spiritual Scientist through some medium or a quigi board or some other means of Spirtual communication , or do you just know these things?

How do you know when you are in love. Does someone tell you or do you just know, and how many times have you fallen in love?

Quote:
Besides you don't believe me now

Originally Posted By: paul

would it really make a difference if I believed you , or if I believed who ever you got this Spiritual science stuff from?

Sure, belief opens the door to experience. Every thought influences the world around you. But if it helps some things are true regardless of belief.

Originally Posted By: paul

I dont know if there is anything scientific about the
spiritual world because.

1) I cannot see-feel-hear it / them .

You mean you don't. Doesn't mean you can't and we're not talking about ghosts, there is no them per se. More like an absolute presence of permeation within matter.
Originally Posted By: paul

2) no one else can.

Because you don't you believe others can't.
Originally Posted By: paul

3) you cant.
This would answer your question of "how do you know" when I said "you don't so you can't." Disbelief and lack of any experience.
Originally Posted By: paul

4) if you are listening to the voices in your head , you are just listening to your head , no one else.

Absolutely true in one sense, tho I would have to clarify that statement by adding, "there really is no one else."

Quote:
It would appear that without peer review none of your own thoughts or ideas would have any substantial value

Originally Posted By: paul

sure they do , they have value to me , even if no one else finds any value in them.

Good point. We accept those who meet our level of commitment and belief to be those who are our peers.

Quote:
Actually to be observed scientifically everything material is seen as spiritually derived.

Originally Posted By: paul

Spiritually derived or not is not the point here , by using the term Spiritual science you are suggesting that the physical can observe the Spiritual.

Actually I'm saying nothing physical exists without the spiritual. The physical would not be physical, it would be more akin to a nothing, not even random floating particles of no definition if there was nothing to organize it or to support it.
Originally Posted By: paul

you are constantly asking TFF to provide answers to your questions , now I ask that you provide a example of the physical observing the Spiritual that has been duly noted in a science journal or any other form of documentation.

a picture , a recording , a interview with a Spirit.

It can't be contained in a recording, a picture or an interview. It can however be reflected in anything you wish to find it in. But You have to open the door by removing the blocks that keep you singly identified with what you define as real in your current evaluation of the world and the universe. Otherwise without direct experience it is just so easy to deny any example to be of any value. Unfortunately the ego denies many things even of itself and its own experiences if it threatens its self identity.
Originally Posted By: paul

if there has been a science that EVOLVED from all the gathered DATA of the evidence of Spiritual encounters then
please allow us to be enlightened.

You're looking at it all backwards All data evolves from the awareness of self reflection. It exists and or existed prior to any recordings of self reflection, questioning and experimentation. Such data is available and does expand the intellect, but that is only part of the equation. Life is like a job that you created. If you go to work and expect to be paid for not doing anything, you are not likely to go home with anything. So if you are looking for someone to collect data for you so you can reap the benefits without the work, you become absorbed in the material world of the ego where you give all your authority to others experiences and determinations.
There is no real value in living a life filled with other peoples ideas, theories and opinions if you are still left empty inside of the experiences and still seeking fulfillment from outside of yourself.


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OK , well I guess I'll get off now , have fun.



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In 2012 year follow the third flood,and then the comet next to the land but not the poke,but mankind will still survive. If people from all over the world and all people not begin to believe in one God who created the world and his son Jesus Christ,God will punish people and unfinished the third world war in 2042 or 2043 or 2044 years. This can prevent if people applied the new concept of a new direction and new and the only true religion, and the direction that is faith is a combination of Marxism and faith in one God.

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This is also the year that the I-ching predicts a major change in the world....makes ya wonder, ya know?

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777 wrote:
"the only true religion,"

Which one is that, please tell?
Marx in his holiness or 'the new' thingy? Or God, whoever he/she is?

Last edited by Ellis; 08/15/09 07:00 AM. Reason: clarification
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The flying spaghetti monster rules!


If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose

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Let's hope not, but some are sadly at sixes and sevens with reality.


"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler
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Originally Posted By: sarabon009
its really very worried news for every one.....
If you were to conduct an international survey of people in all walks of life, you might find that the great majority have no idea what you're talking about, and that most others recognise it as the typical fringe foolishness that tends to issue from the least educated and most deluded of minds.


"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler
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Originally Posted By: alainmarsol
You don't even know what will happen tomorrow , then how can Anyone predict about 2012?
We can predict solar eclipses and another things, or not?

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Originally Posted By: Steeleagle
If we were to say that Mayans through mathematical and cosmogonic calculation had guesstimated or reached the conclusion that an objet of considerable mass, was to crash agains the Earth and cause a catastrophe, I would be worried. When they say, the Mayans used their third eye and foresee the end of the world, it is just a good laugh.


Thats right, but its predicted a cosmic storm to come, maybe in 2012. Personaly i dont think world collapses in 2012, the mayas were owerharwesting lumber and building so many plains the extreme weather killed them. But what woud be a cosmic catastophe woud be if Nemesis existed and came in 2012, but i dont know about any evidence about that. The teorie of Nemesis is a brown dwarf twin star to the sun who are beeing affectet to go throug the orions belt and trowing asteroids upon us.


Everything has a energy. It can be positive ore negative. Sitck to the positive.
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