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#30521 - 04/28/09 06:44 AM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: Revlgking]
eccles Offline
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Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
Revlgking wrote
Quote:
Is this a subject that can be taught, like reading, writing and arithmetic?

No, it is more like an art. Yes, one can learn to be a better artist, especially from other gifted artists; but only if the gift is already present.


Not necessarily.

I have not followed up your links yet so forgive me if they cover "Second Order Cybernetics" which is a systems theory approach to "the observation of observation". (Von Foerster)
I find this useful when thinking about "deities" or "holistic consciousness" because either of these terms implies psychological closure of a mathematically potential infinite set of nested organizational structures.( "cells" are subservient to "organs" which are subservient to "bodies"....etc).


Edited by eccles (04/28/09 06:51 AM)

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#30523 - 04/28/09 12:49 PM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: eccles]
Revlgking Offline
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Eccles, Forgive me, I am not clear as to the points you are trying to make, or where you stand philosophically, and theologically.

Speaking of being subservient, I am reminded of the old Greek myth of Prometheus--the myth is about one who made himself independent of the gods. The myth tells he gained much knowledge for humanity, but at what price.

http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/grecoromanmyth1/a/prometheus.htm
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#30524 - 04/28/09 02:42 PM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Zephir Offline
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Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle
...you can deduce anything, from any kind of definition you want...
Well - if so, why not to demonstrate it by one simple example? The more easier it should be for you to do so...

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#30525 - 04/28/09 04:12 PM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: Zephir]
eccles Offline
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Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
Revlgking

Perhaps the word "subsevient" was ill chosen. Systems Theory imples that the parts cannot be "understood" without reference to the whole. This is the epistemological opposite of reductionist approach.

This paper by Bernard Scott explains the approach and gives a possible line for theologists to explore.

http://www.thehope.org/Bernard_Scott/Observer.html

I myself would not take that line, but I am not adverse to a concept of "holistic consciousness".


Edited by eccles (04/28/09 04:13 PM)

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#30526 - 04/28/09 08:23 PM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: eccles]
Revlgking Offline
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Eccles, I call the whole, GOD, or GØD. What do you call it?

The poet, Alexander Pope, in his Essay On Man, wrote:
All are but parts of one stupendous whole,
Whose body nature is, and God the soul.
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#30528 - 04/28/09 10:11 PM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: Revlgking]
eccles Offline
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I would not want to call it "God" because that has anthropomorhic connotations of purpose or intent. But this body which I seem to inhabit may be like a single bee's in a hive...a component of a larger organizational structure which may itself have the equivalent of "self awareness". Such a "structure" would transcend the psychological construction we call "time", thereby removing that very dimension in which "purpose" logically operates.

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#30529 - 04/29/09 05:06 AM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: eccles]
Ellis Offline
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Whilst the idea of shared consciouness/awareness is very enticing, and since you infer that the dimension of time would be dispersed by this phenomenum, do you therefore anticipate that this altered state of being will find death immaterial, or are you suggesting that this consolidation is to happen after death? Or, are you suggesting that at all times, including after death but also including life which has been transended by the removal of time, we are all part of the 'thing' that is the manifestation of the diety? This really implies that life and death are the same thing, parted only by timimg, and it will not matter anyway since we are all gods!

I'm interested but not convinced. I am a big Occum's Razor fan-- the most obvious answer is usually the correct one. As in- when you're dead-- you're dead!


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#30530 - 04/29/09 06:05 AM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: Ellis]
eccles Offline
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Ellis,

Your point raises the question of "levels of consciousness". Those who meditate claim to leave the "normal self" behind and transcend to a timeless ineffable state one of "oneness with the universe". (See Krishnamurti for example). I make no claim for this personally. I agree that the "normal self" certainly disappears during sleep, and "dies" with the body. It also seems to be the case that "self" is an unruly committee evoked and manipulated by situation. Its perceived unity may be an illusion sustained by the social convention of having a "name" and thereby being "socially accountable".Internal conversations aka "thinking" are social events involving different members of the committee.(See Gurdjieff). It may be that "transcendence" involves seeing the committee for what it is...shedding "the illusion of the self"...or indeed simulating "death".

The problem with Occam's Razor is that it operates on standard epistemology (for "normal selves") which seeks causal explanation. Those who advocate holistic epistemologies have de facto rejected "cause" and its running mates "prediction" and "control". And it may be that we are ultimately hampered by the structure of "language" in making joint "sense" of these issues.


Edited by eccles (04/29/09 07:53 AM)

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#30531 - 04/29/09 09:35 AM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: Zephir]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Zephir
Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle
...you can deduce anything, from any kind of definition you want...
Well - if so, why not to demonstrate it by one simple example? The more easier it should be for you to do so...

Since the words God and Consciousness are being used, the examples would be in the personal opinions of what they are in the meanings applied to the words, and as they vary by belief and what you mentioned as levels of consciousness.
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#30532 - 04/29/09 12:55 PM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: eccles]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: eccles
I would not want to call it "God" because that has anthropomorhic connotations of purpose or intent.


Of course! Have you noticed that, when I speak of the Whole I do not use the noun "God"? GØD/GOD is not a noun; it is an acronym.

Eccles, may I borrow your simile and write: But this body which I inhabit is like a single bee's body in a hive (the cosmos).It is a component, an essential part, of a larger organizational structure within the mystery we call the space/time continuum, or the vacuum.

However, unlike an instinct-driven bee, we human beeings have the power of self-consciousness. As such, following the principle of the Golden Rule, we can will (love) and choose to bee a G-O-D-like SOB (Son of a Bee, or D(aughter)OB)--one who is willing to work creatively, with others, to create a life that is truly wonderful, true and good for all involved. Or I can choose to bee a selfish and, therefore, destructive SOB/DOB and thus opt out on being part of the wonderful life.

BTW, it is I--not my instinctual drives--who makes the choice to bee or not to bee. If it is to 'bee" smile , it is up to me, not up to a personal god (God), or a devil up, or down, there.

IMO, such a "structure" can transcend the pneumatological construction we call "time". Time now becomes, not a thing that passes, but simply the way we measure how we process--at one with the eternal now--within the infinite and ever-expanding space/time continuum.


Edited by Revlgking (04/29/09 03:04 PM)
Edit Reason: Always a good idea.
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#30533 - 04/29/09 02:07 PM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: Revlgking]
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
The people created a God.
No one knows what the external characteristics
of this God are, a God who made himself known
with the name " I am who I am ".
Is it enough for us in the XXIc ?
Why didn’t the formula E=Mc^2 write in the Bible?
=============..
Each religion uses a system of symbols
(images, metaphors, ancient myths and legends ,
beautiful stories) to explain its truth.
But Bernard Shaw wisely remarked :
“ There is only one religion,
although there are a hundred versions of it.”
It means that the source of all religion is one.
And I try to prove this idea with the formulas and laws of
physics. I don’t invent new formulas. I use simple formulas
which ,maybe, every man knows from school.
Is it possible? Is it enough?
Yes. Because the evolution goes from simple to the complex.
So, in the beginning we can use simple formulas and laws.
For this purpose I explain what the first law of Universe is,
and second law is and ...........etc.
Step by step I create a logical system of the Universe.
I think everybody can understand it.
================= . ======
Can God be atheist, governed by scientific laws?
Of course.
Why?
Because if God exists, he would necessarily to work
in an Absolute Reference Frame and have set of physical
and mathematical laws to create everything in the Universe.
And now we can find and understand this Absolute God’s House
and we can find and understand these Cod’s Laws.
============= . .

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#30535 - 04/29/09 03:03 PM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: socratus]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
Revlgking

You've taught me a new word - "pneumatological" !

I understand the "love" aspect of holism but I am also aware that this could be phenomenon of brain chemistry. No doubt the psychology of the aging process will eventually move me off the fence one way or another.

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#30537 - 04/29/09 03:17 PM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: eccles]
Revlgking Offline
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Eccles, please check the re-edit I did of my last post.

BTW, how familiar are you with the concept of pneumatology--the parent of psychology?

In my opinion, human beings who fail to understand the nature, function, value and importance of their pneumatological (spiritual) component will forever remained trapped in their psychological (mental) and somatological (physical) ones. In other words, they will be less humane, to themselves and others.
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#30538 - 04/29/09 03:27 PM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: socratus]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: socratus
The people created a God.
No one knows what the external characteristics
of this God are, a God who made himself known
with the name " I am who I am " ...


Socratus, what is your concept of "God"?

Keep in mind, for me, GØD is uncreated Being and Presence--including the space/time continuum--not a being who can be created.

_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#30539 - 04/29/09 03:49 PM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: Revlgking]
eccles Offline
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Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
Revlgking,

(Okay on the edit). My understanding of "pneumatology" or "active spirituality" as I might call it,is that is a "top-down" approach to "consciousness". I need to contrast it with "deflationist" views of consciousness which see the latter as an epiphenomenon of "the general life process". (Maturana) It is an open question whether "life" is a spontaneous structure (like the dissipative structures of Prigogine) or whether such a structure is being "tweaked" by some form of "higher" organizational force. (Polkinghorne, the Cambridge physicist turned theologian, argues for "tweaking of the strange attractors" in the context of a catastrophe theory model).

So, whereas your pneumatological standpoint focuses on the emotional praxis of "ethical living", my intellectual one focuses on issues of comparative epistemology and ontology. This is not to say that they cannot co-exist.


Edited by eccles (04/29/09 03:57 PM)

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#30540 - 04/29/09 09:05 PM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: eccles]
Revlgking Offline
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Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Quote:
So, whereas your pneumatological standpoint focuses on the emotional praxis of "ethical living", my intellectual one focuses on issues of comparative epistemology and ontology. This is not to say that they cannot co-exist.
Co-existence, yes. I, too, am all for being as inclusive, and as integrative as possible. And the more I think about it, the more amazed I am that we are spiritual beings, with the ability to know, and to know when we do not know. In other words, we have the power of consciousness, which, BTW, is what Jesus meant when he said "born of the spirit (pneuma)".
Quote:
John 3:1-8 (New Living Translation)

John 3

1 There was a man named Nicodemus, a Jewish religious leader who was a Pharisee. 2 After dark one evening, he came to speak with Jesus. “Rabbi,” he said, “we all know that God has sent you to teach us. Your miraculous signs are evidence that God is with you.”

3 Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, unless you are born again,[a] you cannot see the Kingdom of God.”

4 “What do you mean?” exclaimed Nicodemus. “How can an old man go back into his mother’s womb and be born again?”

5 Jesus replied, “I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water [the metaphor for the unconscious mind (psyche) and the Spirit [pneuma, air, wind, breath--the metaphor for conscious mind].[b] 6 Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life.[c] 7 So don’t be surprised when I say, ‘You[d] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can’t tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can’t explain how people are born of the Spirit.”









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G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#30541 - 04/29/09 09:24 PM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: Revlgking]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
In an answer to Ellis above I said
Quote:
It may be that "transcendence" involves seeing the committee for what it is...shedding "the illusion of the self"...or indeed simulating "death".


It is clear to me that "the born again" metaphor follows directly from a "transcendance of self" experience which some call "epiphany". I think it is too general to be identified with Christianity specifically.

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#30542 - 04/30/09 12:06 AM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: eccles]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: eccles
... It is clear to me that "the born again" metaphor follows directly from a "transcendence of self" experience which some call "epiphany". I think it is too general to be identified with Christianity specifically.
Keep in mind, Jesus was speaking as member of the Jewish tradition--one with a universal approach. What we call "Christianity" came later, under the leadership of Paul.
Quote:
Acts 11:19-26 (New Living Translation)

The Church in Antioch of Syria
19 Meanwhile, the believers who had been scattered during the persecution after Stephen’s death traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch of Syria. They preached the word of God, but only to Jews. 20 However, some of the believers who went to Antioch from Cyprus and Cyrene began preaching to the Gentiles[a] about the Lord Jesus. 21 The power of the Lord was with them, and a large number of these Gentiles believed and turned to the Lord.

22 When the church at Jerusalem heard what had happened, they sent Barnabas to Antioch. 23 When he arrived and saw this evidence of God’s blessing, he was filled with joy, and he encouraged the believers to stay true to the Lord. 24 Barnabas was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and strong in faith. And many people were brought to the Lord.

25 Then Barnabas went on to Tarsus to look for Saul. 26 When he found him, he brought him back to Antioch. Both of them stayed there with the church for a full year, teaching large crowds of people. (It was at Antioch that the believers[b] were first called Christians.)

Footnotes:

1. Acts 11:20 Greek the Hellenists (i.e., those who speak Greek); other manuscripts read the Greeks.
2. Acts 11:26 Greek disciples; also in 11:29.
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G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#30543 - 04/30/09 01:13 AM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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I have always supposed that while trancendental experiences have something to do with brain chemistry they also respond well to many other chemical influences. Not that I am against that all the time, but it is a bit like cheating Ben Johnson style isn't it?

Hi there Rev-- nice to see you are posting again!

This, below, is an interesting point you make. So much of what we regard as Jesus' teaching in fact did come to us, somewhat subtly changed through Paul. Though it has to be admitted that without his input a lot of stuff may have been lost.

"Keep in mind, Jesus was speaking as member of the Jewish tradition--one with a universal approach. What we call "Christianity" came later, under the leadership of Paul."

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#30544 - 04/30/09 03:27 AM Re: Have you ever had thoughts of this universe... [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Ellis, Make no mistake about it: I agree that Paul--born a Jew who became a Roman citizen--deserves a lot of credit in that like Jesus, he was also a universalist in his attitude.
Quote:
Acts 22

“Brothers and esteemed fathers,” Paul said, “listen to me as I offer my defense.” 2 When they heard him speaking in their own language, the silence was even greater.

3 Then Paul said, “I am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, and I was brought up and educated here in Jerusalem under Gamaliel. As his student, I was carefully trained in our Jewish laws and customs. I became very zealous to honor God in everything I did, just like all of you today. 4 And I persecuted the followers of the Way, hounding some to death, arresting both men and women and throwing them in prison. 5 The high priest and the whole council of elders can testify that this is so. For I received letters from them to our Jewish brothers in Damascus, authorizing me to bring the Christians from there to Jerusalem, in chains, to be punished.

6 “As I was on the road, approaching Damascus about noon, a very bright light from heaven suddenly shone down around me. 7 I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?’

8 “‘Who are you, lord?’ I asked.

“And the voice replied, ‘I am Jesus the Nazarene, the one you are persecuting.’ 9 The people with me saw the light but didn’t understand the voice speaking to me.

10 “I asked, ‘What should I do, Lord?’

“And the Lord told me, ‘Get up and go into Damascus, and there you will be told everything you are to do.’

11 “I was blinded by the intense light and had to be led by the hand to Damascus by my companions. 12 A man named Ananias lived there. He was a godly man, deeply devoted to the law, and well regarded by all the Jews of Damascus. 13 He came and stood beside me and said, ‘Brother Saul, regain your sight.’ And that very moment I could see him!

14 “Then he told me, ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and hear him speak. 15 For you are to be his witness, telling everyone what you have seen and heard. 16 What are you waiting for? Get up and be baptized. Have your sins washed away by calling on the name of the Lord.’

17 “After I returned to Jerusalem, I was praying in the Temple and fell into a trance [An interesting reference to self-hypnosis in Acts. See also 10:10 and 11:05] 18 I saw a vision of Jesus saying to me, ‘Hurry! Leave Jerusalem, for the people here won’t accept your testimony about me.’

19 “‘But Lord,’ I argued, ‘they certainly know that in every synagogue I imprisoned and beat those who believed in you. 20 And I was in complete agreement when your witness Stephen was killed. I stood by and kept the coats they took off when they stoned him.’

21 “But the Lord said to me, ‘Go, for I will send you far away to the Gentiles!’”

22 The crowd listened until Paul said that word. Then they all began to shout, “Away with such a fellow! He isn’t fit to live!” 23 They yelled, threw off their coats, and tossed handfuls of dust into the air.

Paul Reveals His Roman Citizenship
24 The commander brought Paul inside and ordered him lashed with whips to make him confess his crime. He wanted to find out why the crowd had become so furious. 25 When they tied Paul down to lash him, Paul said to the officer standing there, “Is it legal for you to whip a Roman citizen who hasn’t even been tried?”

26 When the officer heard this, he went to the commander and asked, “What are you doing? This man is a Roman citizen!”

27 So the commander went over and asked Paul, “Tell me, are you a Roman citizen?”

“Yes, I certainly am,” Paul replied.

28 “I am, too,” the commander muttered, “and it cost me plenty!”

Paul answered, “But I am a citizen by birth!”

29 The soldiers who were about to interrogate Paul quickly withdrew when they heard he was a Roman citizen, and the commander was frightened because he had ordered him bound and whipped.

Paul before the High Council
30 The next day the commander ordered the leading priests into session with the Jewish high council. He wanted to find out what the trouble was all about, so he released Paul to have him stand before them.
BTW, if anyone has the right to be called the first pope, IMO, it was not Peter, but Paul. Note the strong words he used as he chastised Peter's old school and narrow approach.
Quote:
Galatians 2:11-14 (New Living Translation)

Paul Confronts Peter
11 But when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him to his face, for what he did was very wrong. 12 When he first arrived, he ate with the Gentile Christians, who were not circumcised. But afterward, when some friends of James came, Peter wouldn’t eat with the Gentiles anymore. He was afraid of criticism from these people who insisted on the necessity of circumcision. 13 As a result, other Jewish Christians followed Peter’s hypocrisy, and even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy.

14 When I saw that they were not following the truth of the gospel message, I said to Peter in front of all the others, “Since you, a Jew by birth, have discarded the Jewish laws and are living like a Gentile, why are you now trying to make these Gentiles follow the Jewish traditions?
Note, Paul, a Jew was not attacking his own people, as people; but the narrow traditions of some of them.
_________________________
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