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#30426 - 04/21/09 12:42 PM Does DNA have Consciousness?
socratus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 415
Does DNA have Consciousness?

Does DNA Know Geometry ?
1.
Here's a nice topic to think about: try comparing your knowledge
of computer-generated graphics with how living organisms are created
from genetic information. Try comparing pixels with cells. After all,
how does DNA "draw" the shape of a human?

There are quite many ways to express shape.
Easiest, and most inefficient, would be to define each pixel (cell?)
with [x,y,z] coordinates. Kind of like in a bitmap. Raster graphics.
Of course this is a crappy method. DNA certainly doesn't work this way.
There are 3 billion genes in our genome and perhaps 100 trillion cells.
No way cells can be defined as [x,y,z].

Vector graphics, now, this is more efficient. Points, lines, curves, all
expressed by some sophisticated equations - definitely, this is a better
way for 3D modeling of a human. A fully programmed human
shape + software to run it would be "only": 20 million bytes = 160
million bits. Well, but that's only a shape, and what about the insides?
Well... but maybe, maybe this would be doable, with 3 billion genes.
Hard to judge. So... maybe this kind of information exists within DNA?
Funny, isn't it? After all, it would mean that DNA actually knows algebra.
Strange to think that DNA would use abstract concepts like 2+2.
As good scientists we shouldn't just reject the idea right away,
but it seems so unlikely...

It is done, however, in some way. How is it that we all have (well, most of us),
2 legs, 1 head, 10 fingers, 206 bones, how is it that wrists are thinner than
elbows - how is it done, with so many details which distinguish one species
from others? You see, if we knew exactly what mechanism is behind it,
perhaps it could revolutionize the way we do graphics? Perhaps we could
learn more about 3D modeling? Maybe about compression methods? Fractals?

Not to mention such details like regeneration of human hand or kidney, well..
#
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtop...15&#entry366993

#
2. Why DNA Knows Geometry ?

The Origin of Consciousness.
================
Descartes said: ‘I think , therefore I am’
Buddhist monk says ‘I think not, therefore I am’
==========================
Consciousness is real but nonphyslcal.
Consciousness is connected to physical reality .
================
There are many theories explaining the origin of consciousness.
Here some of them.
1)
God blew consciousness into man
whom he created from clay.
2)
20 billions years ago all matter (all elementary particles,
all quarks and their girlfriend antiquarks, all kinds of waves:
electromagnetic, gravitational, muons….) –
all was assembled in “singular point”.
Then there was a Big Bang .
Question: when was there consciousness?
a) Before explosion,
b) At the moment of explosion,
c) After the explosion.
It is more probable, that it existed after the explosion.
Then there is a question: what particles (or waves)
were carriers of consciousness?
Mesons, muons, leptons, bosons (W+, W- , Z) ,
quarks, …gluons field ….. ets …?
On this question the Big Bang theory does not give an answer.
But can it be that consciousness was formed as a result
of the interaction of all elementary particles, all waves, all fields?
Then, on the one hand, the reason for the origin of the Big Bang is clear:
everything was mixed, including consciousness, and when it is mixed
then it is possible to construct all and everything.
But on the other hand, it is not clear:
why farmer John can think simply, clearly and logically.
3) Ancient Indian Veda approve, that origination of consciousness
is connected with the existence of spiritual, conscious particles – purusha .
4) Modern physics affirms that the Quantum of light
is a privileged particle as in one cases,
it behave as a particle, and in other case, acts in a way which causes a wave.
How is a particle capable of creating a wave?
The behavior of Light quanta (dualism ) is explained simply.
A quantum of light has its own initial consciousness.
This consciousness is not rigid, but develops.
The development of consciousness goes
‘ from vague wish up to a clear thought ’.
#
Consciousness is connected to physical reality.
It is fact that consciousness is itself already dualistic.
This dualism stays on the basis of Quantum Physics.
Therefore ‘ Quantum Theory of Consciousness’
can be understand only with connection to the
‘ Theory of Light Quanta’.
===============. .
Where does the information come from?

Once upon a time, 20 billions of years ago, all matter
(all elementary particles and all quarks and
their girlfriends- antiparticles and antiquarks,
all kinds of waves: electromagnetic, gravitational,
muons… gluons field ….. etc.) – were assembled in a “single point”.
It means that all information also was assembled in a "single point".
And then there was " big bang " and all information flew to bits
in different sides.
Suppose , that every bits of a "single point", every particle
of a "single point" is the owner of some information.
Then there are two possibilities:
a) every particle has the own information and after 20 billions years
they accidentally united and created everything including a man.
The aim of it is to observe all accidental possibilities.
b) in the beginning every particle has zero information .
Question :" How does zero information further arrive to a
very high informational level ? "
========.
If you go on way a) - so maybe yes, or maybe no,
you will pass through a forest of knowledge .
If you go on way b) - you will pass a forest of
theoretical knowledge along a straight road.
========.
Why I say so?
We know, there is no information transfer
without energy transfer. More correct : there is no quant
information transfer without quant energy transfer.
And the electron has the least electric charge.
It means it has some quant of the least information.
What can electron do with this information?
Let us look the Mendeleev / Moseley periodic table.
We can see at first, that electron does, it interacts with proton
and creates atom of hydrogen. This is simplest design,
which was created by electron.
And we can see how this information grows and reaches
high informational level. And the most complex design,
which was created by electron is the Man.
The Man is alive essence. Animals, birds, fish are alive essences.
And an atom? And atom is also alive design.
The free atom of hydrogen can live about 1000 seconds.
And someone a long time ago has already said, that if to give
suffices time to atom of hydrogen, he would turn into Man.
Maybe it is better not to search about "dark, virtual particles "
but to understand what the electron is,
because even now nobody knows what electron is.
=======================
Was I mistaken? No.
Because according to Pauli Exclusion Principle
only one single electron can be in the atom.
This electron reanimates the atom.
This electron manages the atom.
If the atom contains more than one electron
(for example - two), this atom represents " Siamese twins".
Save us, the Great God, of having such atoms, such children!
Each of us has an Electron, but we do not know it.
========.
Why does only electron have quant of information?
Maybe does proton also have quant of information?
No. Single proton has no quant of information.
Why?
Because information can be transfered only by
electromagnetic fields. And we don’t have a theory
about protono-magnetic fields.
#
In my opinion the Electron is quant of information.
==========.
Once upon a time, in the beginning, there was
one "single point " accidentally.
Then it has accidentally blown up:
Big Bang " has taken place accidentally. (?)
It was the reason of accidental ( ?) creation of some thousands
kinds of elementary particles and their girlfriends - antiparticles.
Then atom of hydrogen was formed accidentally. (?)
Then complex atom was formed accidentally. (?)
Then stars were formed accidentally. (?)
Then the Planet the Earth was formed accidentally. (?)
Then the fauna was formed accidentally. (?)
Then the animal kingdom was formed accidentally. (?)
Then the man was created accidentally. (?)
And this man can accidentally think logically. (?)
But of course, unfortunately, not always.
#
Someone wrote that the chances for the universe to expand,
for the atom to exist, for the earth to bear life and for humanity
to find place is as little as on to a number so big that it would
require 244 zeros to write it down.
==============.
Many years ago man has accustomed some wild
animals (wolf, horse, cat, bull , etc.)
and has made them domestic ones.
But the man understands badly the four-footed friends.
In 1897 J. J. Thomson discovered new particle - electron.
Gradually man has accustomed electron to work for him.
But the man does not understand what an electron is.
==============
By my peasant logic at first it is better to understand
the closest thing (for example an photon /electron) and
then to study the far away space and particles
(for example dark, quark, meson, boson. . . . etc particles).
============ . .
Best wishes.
Israel Sadovnik. / Socratus.
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2548
http://www.socratus.com
http://www.wbabin.net/comments/sadovnik.htm
========== . .
P.S.

Vitalism played a pivotal role in the history of chemistry and
biology, in the history of medical philosophy and psychology .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_biology

============ . .

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.
#30429 - 04/21/09 03:28 PM Re: Does DNA have Consciousness? [Re: socratus]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
"How is it that we all have (well, most of us), 2 legs, 1 head...how is it done?...You see, if we knew exactly what mechanism is behind it..."

But we, or rather geneticists and evolutionists, do know exactly how it's done, i.e. the mechanism behind it.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#30447 - 04/22/09 08:48 AM Re: Does DNA have Consciousness? [Re: redewenur]
Zephir Offline
Superstar

Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
By AWT every elementary particle has a primitive consciousness, because AWT interprets the gravity or electrical fields as a gradients of Aether density and particles are sniffing around and they follow these density gradients by the same way, like bacteria follow sugar concentration or protozoa or human creatures are looking for energy sources or gold.

Every object with positive surface curvature has an apparent tendency to merge with another objects with positive surface curvature, while avoiding the objects with negative curvature like mercury droplets. By AWT such behavior is completely result of chaotic nature of Universe (you can read a bit more about this approach here)

The more complex structure is, the more complex is its behavior, because overlapping density gradients - which can be interpreted like action in hidden dimensions - may be applied. Whereas DNA is pretty complex structure, because it's not only a polymer of high molecular weight, but it's formed by less or more regularly organized units. Therefore we can met with evidence of "specific interactions" similar to charge, when single molecule attracts the complementary ones preferably at distance - i.e. by the same way, like males or females are looking for their partners.

In addition, so-called " quantum mirage" phenomena can take place here. It means, large organized molecules can imprint their shape to surrounding molecules of water and they can leave a permanent imprint in it. This is because of tixotropic structure of water clusters, which are behaving like pieces of modeling clay. During their mutual collisions clusters can retain their shape, they just exchanging water molecules with another clusters in such a way, the geometry of clusters is retaines (so called "memory of water" - compare the results of homeopathy and cluster medicine). But here are some evidence, the large volume of highly specific molecules can affect their neighborhood even outside of solution at distance (search the "DNA telepathy" on the web).

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#30462 - 04/22/09 01:01 PM Re: Does DNA have Consciousness? [Re: Zephir]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
David Bohm would certainly have agreed that his concept of "implicate order" which applied to all energy/matter was synonymous with underlying "consciousness". But we need to understand Bohm's background with repect to his sympathy with Einstein's rejection of QM (God doesn't play dice..) and also his spiritual association Krishnamurti, who advocated the meditational cessation of "thought" and its construction "time" if we were to understand the nature of "spiritual Truth". This hypothetical removal of the time dimension would play logical havoc with a concept of "goal attainment" by any "creative agency".

The antithesis of a "consciousness approach" can be found in the autopoietic systems advocated by the biologist Maturana, who rejected the need for a "vitalistic force", opting instead for the occurrence of spontaneous stucture in dynamic systems (after Prigogine) in order to account for "life". For Maturana, like Dennett, "consciousness" is an epiphenomenon of the general life process but not necessarily from a traditional reductionist
viewpoint. Instead we need to turn to the "systems approach" as described in Von Foersters "Second Order Cybernetics" in order to understand the organizational dynamics of self sustaining complex (non linear) systems. Such systems due not yield to the simplistic logic of "causality" found in linear systems.(The best introduction to this is IMO Fritjof Capra's "The Web of Life".)

To summarize, this thread raises the question of the utility of the concept of "consciousness" with respect to "science", but this inevitably pushes us into the more fundamental epistemological question of what constitutes a "satisfactory explanation".


Edited by eccles (04/22/09 01:14 PM)

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#30467 - 04/22/09 05:50 PM Re: Does DNA have Consciousness? [Re: eccles]
Zephir Offline
Superstar

Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
A conceptual similarity of locomotion of various objects in gradient of energy density.. It means, human consciousness is just concentrated consciousness of many particles forming human body, so we can follow a complex, subtle and multidimensional gradients of energy density - but the general principle remains very same.



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#30471 - 04/22/09 09:31 PM Re: Does DNA have Consciousness? [Re: Zephir]
Zephir Offline
Superstar

Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
Whereas single pinpoint particle is rather "silly" and it can follow just a narrow density gradient, complex multidimensional fluctuations of Aether can follow a complex gradient and they can even avoid a wrong path, impasses or obstacles at certain extent. As such they're "farseeing" and "intelligent". Multidimensional object can be modelled by dense cluster of particles with mutually overlapping forces/density gradients. An atom with its electrons is more intelligent, then the atom nuclei, the complex molecule (like DNA or protein) is more intelligent, then single atom, human civilization as a whole is more intelligent superorganism, then single person. The organic life can be interpreted like neverending competetion of various complex protein molecules for electrochemical energy. Note that the traveling of particle along density gradient leads into gradual dissolving of it and "death". The same forces, which are keeping the particle in motion will lead to its gradual disintegration of it.



Human brain is an Aether simulator from this perspective - as it propagates a electromechanical waves (solitons), which are forced to follow an optimal path in highly multidimensional and branched environment of human brain tissue. After then the optimal path is hardcoded/imprinted into geometrical structure of neural synapses during sleeping.

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#30472 - 04/22/09 09:57 PM Re: Does DNA have Consciousness? [Re: eccles]
Zephir Offline
Superstar

Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
Originally Posted By: eccles
David Bohm would certainly have agreed that his concept of "implicate order" which applied to all energy/matter was synonymous with underlying "consciousness".

Implicate order can be elaborated further in AWT as a general topology of logic, based on Lagrangian/Hamiltonian mechanics. Neither Einstein/Bohm, neither Bohr were completely right/wrong, though. By AWT reality is well balanced mixture of chaotic and harmonic motion, longitudinal and transversal waves, energy and matter, time and space and so on.

It means, every logic and causality is just a sort of human abstraction of chaos, but no chaos can be perceived as such without some rudimentary order in it. In my opinion it has no meaning to discuss, whether Universe is harmonic or chaotic - it's always a mixture of both. You can still build a philosophy based on some boundary approach - but in my opinion the power of AWT is in its balanced approach, based on concept of observational perspectives (exsintric/insitric ones in particular).

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#30473 - 04/22/09 10:16 PM Re: Does DNA have Consciousness? [Re: Zephir]
eccles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 149
Interesting....particularly the intrinsic/extrinsic dimension for "observation". You might like to compare that with Maturana's concept of "the observer domain". e.g.
http://www.univie.ac.at/constructivism/pub/hvf/papers/maturana05selfconsciousness.html

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#30476 - 04/22/09 10:48 PM Re: Does DNA have Consciousness? [Re: eccles]
Zephir Offline
Superstar

Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
Originally Posted By: eccles
..You might like to compare that with Maturana's concept of "the observer domain"...
Thank you for link, I'll read it definitely.

It's rather difficult to define exact criterion of self-awareness. From AWT follows, every particle is formed by dense cluster of many other density fluctuations, so it exhibits an internal life. Even primitive organisms exhibits a rudimentary self-awareness - for example bacteria avoid the space, where they persisted before few seconds. It's apparent, their own metabolites are source of negative chemotaxis - in this sense, every bacteria is self-aware of itself slightly (it's evident, this behavior forces the organism to find a place with fresh food earlier, then its sources are depleted at given point). Many material objects are behaving by the same way, because they tend to chaotic motion, for example sparks never follow the very same path. But it's evident, self-awareness is more complex and less frequent/intensive phenomena, then just a reflection of outer environment, because every object is always smaller, then the rest of its environment and it consist of smaller number of particles, then the remaining objects in this environment. A solitary organisms would become self-aware earlier, then these more social ones.

Despite the we are conscious self-aware creatures for long time already, we just starting to understand, why is it so. The realization of particle nature of reality appears trivial for me, but mainstream science is still not aware of it - so I cannot consider people quite aware of itself.

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#30478 - 04/23/09 12:20 AM Re: Does DNA have Consciousness? [Re: Zephir]
Zephir Offline
Superstar

Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
To understand better, how long distance interactions of DNA may work we should make familiar with AWT model of charge interactions. Vacuum is similar to boiling fluid of nested density fluctuations, similar to those, which are forming inside of every dense particle system, like the supercritical fluid - just the number of nested levels is virtually unlimited in Aether.



The density fluctuations of Aether are making very complex motion composed of nested vortices. The important point is, if some particle introduces some complex motion into vacuum, the neighboring environment replicates this motion in its every point. For example, inside of field of electron every piece of vacuum undulates the same way, like at the center of electron, just in less pronounced way at larger distance. This action is cumulative, so if we focus the undulations of one or few particles into certain point, we can restore the same undulations at the focal point. This is what the quantum mirage phenomena means:



Therefore the system of many oriented polar bonds in DNA molecule can induce the changes of electromagnetic field intensity in such a way, the zones of empty vacuum will attract the molecules of similar geometry easier, then others. This is probably the way, in which we can explain "telepathic behavior" of DNA strands.

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