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#30002 - 03/27/09 06:46 AM Holotheism- a new way of exploring the God hypo...
Revlgking Offline
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A DIALOGUE ABOUT THE WRITINGS OF RICHARD DAWKINS AND WHAT, IN CHAPTER TWO, HE CALLS "THE GOD HYPOTHESIS".
==============================================================
To all readers and fellow posters--including atheists, agnostics, believers (all faiths) or the just plain curious: While taking a holiday in Florida, I took the opportunity to do a careful reading of THE GOD DELUSION, the widely-acclaimed book by Richard Dawkins, who describes himself as a "staunch atheist" (page 13).

In the preface of his book Dawkins states his purpose for writing it: "It is written to raise consciousness--raise consciousness that to be an atheist is a realistic aspiration and a splendid one. You can be an atheist who is balanced, moral, and intellectually fulfilled. He writes in the hope that readers "will gain enlightenment" and that we will come to the conclusion that 'the God hypothesis' is a false one.

One reviewer, Professor Stephen Pinker, Harvard University--author of The Language Instinct, How the Mind Works, and The Blank State--describes Professor Hawkins as, "one of the best nonfiction writers alive today".

With the above in mind check out http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hylotheism
There, I found the word, new to me,

Hy´lo`the`ism
-------------
It is a noun meaning the doctrine of belief that matter is God, or that there is no God except matter and the universe; pantheism. See Materialism.

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, published 1913 by C. & G. Merriam Co.
==============

Please, will those who respond to this post tell us: Have you listened to and/or read Richard Dawkins? Do not be afraid to tell us what you do or do not believe in matters of faith and morals. But please be clear and to the point.
Here is one of the many sites on Dawkins' work:
http://richarddawkins.net/quotes

http://www.google.ca/search?q=richard+dawkins+quotes&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.mandriva:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
==================================
In my opinion, Richard Dawkins is more of a hylotheist than an atheist.
Me? In the past I have called myself a unitheist. See
http://www.unitheist.org/whatis.html

I still think that unitheism is a good word, but while reading Dawkins' book the word 'holotheism' came to my mind. I think it is a new word.

Over the next few posts I will try to define what 'holotheism' means for me. I will appreciate any comments, pro or con, which will help me to do so.

Keep in mind that, as one who respects all sincerely held beliefs--especially the kind which inspire us to be moral, ethical, loving and humane beings--I am more interested in dialogue than in debate. However, I am not a moral relativist. For me, there are some things which are right and some which are wrong. I also have strong opinions about social justice issues. Look what shameless greed has done, recently, to the economy, to the hard-working middle class and the poor.

But, over the years, I hope I have learned to disagree without being too disagreeable. smile


Edited by Revlgking (03/27/09 07:00 AM)

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#30009 - 03/28/09 06:03 PM Re: Holotheism- a new way of exploring the God hypo... [Re: Revlgking]
Acitta
Unregistered


Unitheism, hylotheism, pantheism, etc. are just words. They are inventions of the human mind and not descriptions of reality. Humans are creative but we get lost in the creations of our imagination and think that they are real. Evidence based science is the best way that we have to distinguish what is real from what we imagine to be real.

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#30010 - 03/29/09 02:33 AM Re: Holotheism- a new way of exploring the God hypo... [Re: ]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Acitta
Humans are creative but we get lost in the creations of our imagination and think that they are real. Evidence based science is the best way that we have to distinguish what is real from what we imagine to be real.


Unless science is limited to the imagination of the scientist(s) in charge of claiming ultimate authority.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#30011 - 03/29/09 06:18 AM Re: Holotheism- a new way of exploring the God hypo... [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Revlgking Offline
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PROBABILISM
===========


THE GOD HYPOTHESIS AND PROBABILISM

===================================
In thinking about the God Hypothesis, which Richard Dawkins on page 3, The GOD Delusion, describes as, "a scientific hypothesis about the universe, which should be analysed as skeptically as any other", it helps me to at least attempt to understand the doctrine of probabilism.

PROBABILISM
=============
Probabilism is the philosophical doctrine that certainty is impossible and that probability suffices to govern faith and practice.

Atheists--that is, people who choose to deny the existence of gods, or God, and to live their lives without any invisible means of support--because they admit it is impossible to prove a negative, call on the doctrine of probabilism to help them argue their case. This is the philosophy behind the campaign by atheists in London, England, who were the first, in early January, to post the following add on 800 city buses: THERE'S PROBABLY NO GOD. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life.

But probabilism also works for those who choose to affirm the existence of anything, including the existence of God, or even gods, fairies and the like.

The United Church of Canada countered the atheists bus campaign with a full-page ad in the Globe and Mail, a national paper: In addition to the text used by the atheists, they added this option: THERE'S PROBABLY A GOD. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life. Check boxes appeared besides each option, inviting the readers to choose. Readers were also invited to join the discussion here at WonderCafe.ca

Let's all give UC thanks for this interactive website of the United Church's Emerging Spirit campaign.


By the way, because for me as a spiritual being, the physical universe--open to being explored by all the sciences--is very much a part of the holos, which I call GØD, I have no hesitation in saying that GØD is not just probable, but IS--just as sure as Being or Presence IS.

Atheists, keep in mind that, for me, GØD is not just a being, or some super kind of idol created by the mind. It would be foolish of me to even attempt to prove that there is such a being. To atheists who ask for evidence, I ask: Is there no evidence for your being, my being and what I call all Being or Presence? Unless life is what Hemmingway called a "dirty trick", it seems to me that certain truths are self evident.

Of course I do not know all about all Being, even all about my own being, or the being of anyone; but this does not prevent me from being certain of the part about which I do know and--unless I choose to reject it, which I am free to do--am experiencing in the Now.

It is my awareness of GØD as the total process of Being now, which enables me to work on being moral, ethical and loving--according to the Golden Rule. This motivates me and encourages me to make the eternal pilgrimage, empowered by a rational faith and gracious Being or Presence, which, unless we choose to reject it, surrounds all of us.

===========
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#30016 - 03/30/09 12:23 AM Re: Holotheism- a new way of exploring the God hypo... [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Rev- Can't resist it! Here we go again!

There is no god, none at all, not even in whatever mysterious ways he/she/it/state of being or unbeing believers place him/her/etc in. (Gosh covering all bases makes for a very convoluted sentence). Now get on with the rest of your life. There is no more, just as until our birth as an individual we were nothing. Then we came from nothing and we will return to nothing. It's a bit confronting, but sensible when you work it out. And one thing I do believe (!) is that the molecules and bits and pieces that I am reduced to after death will enter the big circle of life, because that is an observable everyday happening in Nature.

Holo-whatever- sounds like the other philosophy you used to like.

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#30019 - 03/30/09 06:15 AM Re: Holotheism- a new way of exploring the God hypo... [Re: Ellis]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Quote:
Probabilism is the philosophical doctrine that certainty is impossible and that probability suffices to govern faith and practice.
That most certainly isn't possible...err I mean there can't be any certainty that this is a probability.

Quote:

There is no god, none at all, not even in whatever mysterious ways he/she/it/state of being or unbeing believers place him/her/etc in.
There you have it. In no uncertain terms there can be no argument against this probability because there is no probability without certain cause. So unless your certain something is real or not real it can't be a probability.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#30040 - 03/31/09 10:25 PM Re: Holotheism- a new way of exploring the God hyp [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ellis
Rev- Can't resist it! Here we go again!


Go ahead, Ellis: Have fun and tell it like you feel it is. I trust you realize that what you write is pure dogma of your making. Without any evidence you offer us the "truth" smile according to Ellis. You write:

"There is no god, none at all, not even in whatever mysterious ways he/she/it/state of being or unbeing believers place him/her/etc in. (Gosh covering all bases makes for a very convoluted sentence)."

I get your point ... And I hope I appreciate how you feel about life, and what it means to you. In my humble opinion, it does not mean very much...Certainly not in the way of longevity. Quality, yes; but not in quantity. I want both.

Meanwhile, I assume you are willing to accept that each of us is responsible for our own philosophy of life. Here is my rant:

My rant is--and I admit that, at this point, I have no hard evidence--only a hypothesis: The good life not just one of quality; it is also one of quantity, duration.

I readily admit: I want life to be an eternal experience, not just a blip in time. For me, and for a host of others: Death is not the goal of life. The goal of life, like that of evolution, is more and more interesting forms of life--enabling us to explore planets in this and other galaxies.


You continue:
"There is no more, just as until our birth as an individual we were nothing. Then we came from nothing and we will return to nothing. It's a bit confronting, but sensible when you work it out." When you work it out, I am interested in seeing the evidence for your "dogma".

Sensible to you, perhaps, but not to me; and for billions of others.

"Now get on with the rest of your life." you say.

Me? I am approaching 80. Recently, I was diagnosed with serious prostate cancer. How long would you guess is the "rest" of my life?

BTW, when I die--as we all will, eventually--I do not want to "rest"; I want the life and energy to have new adventures in being. Do you just want to rest? From my "dogmatic" point of view: Don't count on it. You have too much fight in you just to "rest in peace".

You continue:
"And one thing I do believe (!) is that the molecules and bits and pieces that I am reduced to after death will enter the big circle of life, because that is an observable everyday happening in Nature.

You interject: "Holo-whatever- sounds like the other philosophy you used to like."

I still like unitheism. Holotheism is not contrary to unitheism. Like the wings of a bird, it compliments it. At www.wondercafe.ca I write, in detail, about how this is so. Feel free to look in an offer your very interesting point of view.

Thanks for the enjoyable and honest dialogue. May we always agree to disagree, agreeably. In the final analysis: What will be, WILL BE!

With Sincere AGAPE/Love!

And I mean it!

The Rev!



Edited by Revlgking (03/31/09 10:48 PM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#30042 - 04/01/09 02:55 AM Re: Holotheism- a new way of exploring the God hyp [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Rev: What a fighter you are! I was echoing 'for the rest of our life' from the buses in London and apologise for the distasteful crack it seems to be. However I am sure, Rev, that you will continue the rest of your life in the way you have lived up until now, fearlessly, in your life as well as in your faith.

You are right I do not quote others as I find the likes of Dawkins etc., whilst I agree with their philosophy, as irritating as any fundamentalists of any faith. I have formed my point of view from a lot of reading and a lifetime of experience. As I have told you before, I was as sure that there was no god when I was a child as I am now, so I have no foundation dogma or rules to quote. There is no church of Atheism, there is no plan for spreading the news amongst the nations of the world, by war if needed! Being an atheist is a solitary pursuit, and I never try to persuade anyone it is correct, I think that it is correct, but I do not say that belief in the divine is wrong, just that it is totally incomprehensible to me.

But as I said, I do have a belief in the continuation of life... and when we die our existence is acknowledged by the things we leave behind. That is, our body or ashes, our children (if we were lucky enough to have them), our ideas and thoughts, and, most importantly, the way people who met us remember us. We are all the result of people who preceded us and we can continue to contribute to the future.

Best of luck to you Rev. I feel that you will do very well.

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#30044 - 04/01/09 05:17 AM Re: Holotheism- a new way of exploring the God hyp [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Ellis, for the sake of new readers, in summary I repeat what I have said before: Though I respect moral, loving and humane theists, I think of myself as a-theist, but not an atheist. As indicated in this thread: Without insisting that I have the truth, I have opted for new ways of looking at theism--unitheism (GOD as the beginning point of Being), and holotheism (GØD as the whole and evolving universe into all Being). The book of Revelation speaks of God as the Alpha and the Omega; the A to Z.

I have no evidence, or belief, that there is a personal god: One who exists as a separate being, or person; one who is, separate from us and the universe. Therefore, I make no attempt to convert atheists, especially those who are moral, loving and humane to this kind of theism.

But I--and many others--have enough evidence to convince me, if not atheists, to say: I know that what we call the physical universe is a mysterious something more than just what it appears to be to the five senses.

MEANWHILE, I AM ALL IN FAVOUR OF HAVING WHAT I WILL CALL AN EVIDENCE-BASED PHILOSOPHY OF RELIGION--ONE THAT GETS THINGS DONE
============================================================
BTW, you are no doubt aware that modern physics, especially of the quantum kind, is getting closer and closer to demonstrating that the primary building blocks of the material universe are not material particles at all; they are what physicists call "strings" of pure energy (power).

Interestingly, the root word for God, in Hebrew and Arabic is EL-Al. It simply means "the power"). My personal experiments, and practical experiences, in what I call pneumatology have given me--and others--hard evidence that the human spirit (pneuma) is capable--given the right frame of mind and involving use of the imagination, faith, hope and will--of tapping into and making practical use of these strings of energy.

THIS ENERGY CAN BE USED, BY ATHEISTS OR RELIGIONISTS, TO DO GOOD, OR EVIL
========================================================
But keep in mind, this power can be used for good or ill. I am convinced: Ignorance of, neutrality regarding and the evil use of, this power--often by religionists who think of themselves as God's chosen ones--is the basic cause of all pain, suffering, or evil.

Though not adverse to using the name "God", Eckhart Tolle, and others before him, calls this "mysterious something more" Being, or Presence. I prefer using the acronym, GØD. But I'm easy: Good atheists may prefer to call it Nature. What matters most is that, for the sake of the world, we take positive action. The option to remain ignorant and/or neutral is an option for pain and suffering. I presume you agree that no basically good person should make that choice.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#30055 - 04/01/09 04:32 PM Re: Holotheism- a new way of exploring the God hyp [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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The English word for “God” has become a source of confusion for Christians since at least the Anglo-Saxon era. Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary says that the origin of the word ‘god’ comes from a Germanic word ‘gad,’ pronounced as “gohdt.” .....

http://www.bibleanswerstand.org/God.htm

http://www.bibleanswerstand.org/God_2.htm

There are thousands of books written by philosophers, Theosophists, theologians, clerics, historians, skeptics, anarchists etc etc.. All of whom use words to describe what they describe as the ultimate authority within the Universe.

The words become meaningless if the ultimate authority is not something that is directly experienced and surrendered to within the experience of life as the source of life.

Preachers preach from their definitions of reality. Teachers who are stable within the experience of surrender to the Supreme, don't isolate definitions to certain words, especially when the supreme is indefinable.

The Vedic texts are comprised of thousands of volumes speaking to the knowledge and experience of the Supreme or the absolute. The word God is just as valid as any other pointing sign that will lead the intellect toward the experience and immersion of the intellect into the awareness of the Supreme being.

Sanskrit has a unique way of conveying the essence of something thru its structure of words.. One word can have ten different meanings. Deciphering the meanings of Sanskrit Teachings becomes a process of refined awareness and expanded consciousness. One person can decipher a passage and come up with cows while another can translate the same text and unveil a description of the divine presence.

Lots of people know things. But then lots of people are surrendered not to the supreme being, but to the personal ego, and as such cannot give anything to anyone other than what exists within their own nervous system. Which is the struggling intellect with a need to convey the attachment of personal meaning, to a diverse group of individuals who all live within their own beliefs, with their own terminology.

The struggling intellect will take shots at something with words, like throwing darts at a dart board blindfolded trying to hit a mark. Sometimes if they are lucky they might hit the board with the marks, but not often does the blindly thrown dart hit a mark of any measure.

Someone could come to speak of spirituality to a group of English speaking individuals and give a discourse in Finnish and get nowhere. Often this is the same scenario for the preacher or reverend of any church who has in their own determination lived within a belief system that is structured to a personal experience and study limited to certain words and definitions of those words.

In the Bible there is a story of the "Sermon on the mount". In the story Jesus speaks to a diverse group of people who do not speak in the same language, nor do they have the same beliefs. The scenario is an analogy of how the master steps aside of the ego to speak thru a surrendering("I and my Father are One", "What the Father witness in me, I witness in Him", kind of surrender), to the supreme being, allowing the holy spirit or the voice of God to speak.
In the story of the Sermon on the mount, every person who heard Jesus speak, heard the words in their own language and thru their personal beliefs.
This is not magic, its just something that takes place beyond the boundaries of personality and individual knowing and belief. It is something that supersedes the boundaries of personal ego.
There is a saying: You can lead a horse to water...Well these horses were really thirsty!

There is a saying: "Those with the eyes to see and the ears to hear"... It represents the intellect which has stepped out of the boundaries of individualism and can hear the same voice in a diverse experience of people all speaking different words about the same thing. It requires a greater humility than one who insists on glorifying their personality and personal history to exemplify a single path of focus on a set of defining terms.
In my experience there aren't many out there with the capability. It is something that requires innocence such as that of a child that has no preconceptions and has not locked themselves into a "my way of thinking."

Another thing that is prominent in preachers of personal opinion and belief, is the need to have someone listen.
It is psychological in its nature. Without some kind of validation, the feeling that ones life has had no meaning invades the belief and opinion of the personal.

Mt 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

This particular piece from scripture says two things. Waste no knowledge on the mind that is closed and non receptive, and it speaks toward the more important factor which was brought up in the beginning of this post. The personal cannot speak effectively to the masses of diversity. Only one voice can and that is non-personal and can connect itself to any living intellect. It speaks consistently and gently nudges the intellect toward Truth that is not personal or relative even tho it can speak within relative boundaries of personality and limitation.

For one to utter that voice, one has to step out of the way of personal opinion and the knowing of belief and individuality.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#30098 - 04/02/09 09:32 PM Re: Holotheism- a new way of exploring the God hypo... [Re: Revlgking]
taraleecheesie
Unregistered


Hi, actually there is a god. It is a master god equation that gives two solutions: one male and one female. The male is Gerard Butler the original SON-god who is now kept captive in the antiwave realm and has MANY FAKE copies in his likeness. I'm told I am the female part of the equation. I reside on earth with NO memory of my prior existence in the antiwave or antimatter realm, but have been given the information. The antiwave medium and antimatter realms are a CANCER on existence. I believe they are being eaten away be the 'ME' (no not me) to balance existence.

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#30139 - 04/03/09 08:00 PM Re: Holotheism- a new way of exploring the God hyp [Re: ]
Revlgking Offline
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GØD IS AN ACRONYM
=================
The value of using the acronym GOD, or GØD, and not the confusing noun, God, is this: Due our ignorance there may be a lack of scientific information about existence--the all that IS (or GØD)--but who is prepared to say that there is no such thing as existence? Existence is self-evident and needs no other proof. GØD is not just a probability; GØD is the reality of reality. Humane and positive Atheists, try denying that you exist within existence. It is a logical impossibility to exist and, at the same time, to deny it.

Forget about the creeds and dogmas of narrow religions, which create nothing but division. In the Now let's get connected with, tuned into--BTW,this is the best way to "pray" Being. For the social good of all, let's all--and I mean ALL--with the help of the arts and sciences, unite in a higher philosophy of religion and start eliminating all pain and suffering, beginning now. Enabled by the power of faith, hope, and love, let us work in unison to bring on the justice,peace and joy for everyone.

Who among us is NOT in favour of such a worthwhile goal?
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#30165 - 04/04/09 03:33 AM Re: Holotheism- a new way of exploring the God hyp [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Registered: 06/19/08
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
GØD IS AN ACRONYM
=================
The value of using the acronym GOD, or GØD, and not the confusing noun, God, is this: Due our ignorance there may be a lack of scientific information about existence--the all that IS (or GØD)--but who is prepared to say that there is no such thing as existence? Existence is self-evident and needs no other proof. GØD is not just a probability; GØD is the reality of reality. Humane and positive Atheists, try denying that you exist within existence. It is a logical impossibility to exist and, at the same time, to deny it.

Forget about the creeds and dogmas of narrow religions, which create nothing but division. In the Now let's get connected with, tuned into--BTW,this is the best way to "pray" Being. For the social good of all, let's all--and I mean ALL--with the help of the arts and sciences, unite in a higher philosophy of religion and start eliminating all pain and suffering, beginning now. Enabled by the power of faith, hope, and love, let us work in unison to bring on the justice,peace and joy for everyone.

Who among us is NOT in favour of such a worthwhile goal?


If all there is, is God, what is it you really want to fix?
Who in the world is without justice or hope or peace or love?

The idea that one is without is only an illusion created by personal choice and ego. If God supports free will and free choice without intervening to take the illusion from the ego why would someone want to play God to change the world unless they think God is doing a poor job of creating reality?
The only thing that comes to mind, is that it has to do with personal perceptions of reality, and the inability to find God and perfection in reality as seen through personal opinion and belief. That kind of NOW is an illusion.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#30273 - 04/10/09 03:09 AM Re: Holotheism- a new way of exploring the God hyp [Re: ]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
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Originally Posted By: Acitta
Unitheism, hylotheism, pantheism, etc. are just words. ... Evidence-based science is the best way that we have to distinguish what is real from what we imagine to be real.
I agree, Acitta. This why I also agree that we need an evidence-based theology The holos, which includes the cosmos, is real enough to be explored by any scientist interested and with the skill to do.

By the way, recently--on The CBC's, The Current--I heard a professor emeritus (of medicine) of McMaster University. He spoke about the need for evidence-based medicine.

He said: "We need more and more medicine-based medicine. Then he went on to point out and illustrate how: Much of the practice of modern medicine is NOT evidence based."

BTW, since holotheism includes the cosmos, I see it as evidence-based theology.


_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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