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#29771 - 03/10/09 03:54 PM The Oldest Fossils
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...

Paul,
Here's something to get you stared.
http://www.fossilmuseum.net/Tree_of_Life/Stromatolites.htm

But even if the earliest fossils were in the Cambrian, it would not be a blow to the theory of evolution.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC300.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC301.html

"Im not ignorant , and your generalized statement above is false"
You're not aware of your ignorance, which makes you foolish, as well.

"you must percieve yourself as being ignorant "
Yes. I am ignorant.

"assume that all people are ignorant."
A reasonable conclusion to reasonable people.

"if science is wrong about something and can be overturned"
You were saying previously that science only accepts things that are not erroneous. Can I assume we have at least gotten past that hurdle?

"bring on the massive amounts of data that evoloution built there foundation on !!"
The information is on the net. If you were to look at something other than creationist websites, you would be able to find it yourself.

There is nothing bad about being wrong. False does not mean evil or bad or stupid. But falseness does not adequately describe creationism. It is not just wrong, but stupid.




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#29772 - 03/10/09 04:06 PM Re: The Oldest Fossils [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
so if some gullible person that thinks that life such as this..

[img][img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/67/LeggedTrilobite2.jpg/180px-LeggedTrilobite2.jpg[/img] [/img]

evolved , instantaineously everywhere on the earth from this



and of course here is our amazing little microscopic
fossilized colony of bacteria.



then ...

Quote:
There is nothing bad about being wrong. False does not mean evil or bad or stupid. But falseness does not adequately describe creationism. It is not just wrong, but stupid.


well we now have the massve amount of evidence for evoloution.

and it was a instant , worldwide , outbreak of evoloution !!!

that is what is stupid , but stupid is , stupid does.


LOL ... from microscopic to something you can actually see...

instantly !!!


here are pictures that relate the amazing feats of evoloution.

picture 1 - bacteria

you will need your microscope for viewing picture 1 as this is a life sized image.

picture 2 - trilobites

the image below has been scaled in size to fit your screen.



AHHHHH ... the wonders of evoloution .

What a FARCE !!!

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#29774 - 03/10/09 04:42 PM Re: The Oldest Fossils [Re: paul]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
"evolved , instantaineously everywhere on the earth"
No scientists say or imply that the myriad of life forms evolved instantaneously. Hundreds of millions of years is not "instantaneously."

"instantly !!!"
The problem isn't that you are merely ignorant.

Besides which this specifically refutes your claim that the oldest fossils are only ~500 My old. Furthermore, even if there were no fossils older than that, the evolution since that time has still not been refuted.

The fossil evidence of evolution is not the existence of fossils, but the ordering and dispersion of the fossils in time and space.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_evolution



Edited by TheFallibleFiend (03/10/09 04:46 PM)

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#29782 - 03/10/09 06:56 PM Re: The Oldest Fossils [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
Quote:
Hundreds of millions of years is not "instantaneously."


true , but in geological time frames , how about 5-10 million years!!

excerpt from your previously chosen web site.
http://www.fossilmuseum.net/Paleobiology/CambrianExplosion.htm

Quote:
The theory of the Cambrian Explosion holds that, beginning some 545 million years ago, an explosion of diversity led to the appearance over a relatively short period of 5 million to 10 million years of a huge number of complex, multi-celled organisms. Moreover, this burst of animal forms led to most of the major animal groups we know today, that is, every extant Phylum.

on the fifth day of Creation
Genesis 1:20
Quote:
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life,


you further lessen your readability with these wild exagerations
when you transition 5-10 into hundreds!!!

but I suppose 5-10 million years would have sounded too dramatic...or instantaineous.

Quote:
Furthermore, even if there were no fossils older than that, the evolution since that time has still not been refuted.


how could refuse refute refuse !

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#29791 - 03/11/09 01:36 PM Re: The Oldest Fossils [Re: paul]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...

" how about 5-10 million years!!"
Also not instantaneously.

"you further lessen your readability with these wild exagerations"
Are you a complete idiot or are you intentionally trying to misrepresent what I said? The main jump took place over 10s of millions of years. But - contrary to your previous assertions that life just started about 500 million years ago - life started long before that and evolution was taking place far longer than that.

"how could refuse refute refuse !"
I don't hold much hope that you are capable of understanding what you read. Your primary references to date seems to have been Carl Baugh and Adnan Oktar, neither of whom is a scientist, both of whom have been thoroughly and devastatingly refuted by real scientists, and neither of whom is particularly knowledgeable of science as even an amateur.


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#29792 - 03/11/09 01:40 PM Re: The Oldest Fossils [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
To Ellis,

I'm not sure whether we should call "evolution" a science in itself. OTOH, I'm not sure it's important. It is a theory that ties together many disparate observations from many disparate disciplines - biology, chemistry, geology, paleontology, physics.

Evolution is an observed fact. We see it clearly in the fossil record and we have witnessed macro-evolution in the life-span of human beings. The theory of evolution explains the fact of evolution.


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#29793 - 03/11/09 03:08 PM Re: The Oldest Fossils [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
tff

Quote:
The main jump took place over 10s of millions of years


10s of millions would place the period from 20my - 90 my

5 - 10 my is not 10s of millions of years.


Quote:
The theory of evolution explains the fact of evolution.


so now you have graduated evoloution into a fact vs a theory.

ipso facto

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#29798 - 03/11/09 05:28 PM Re: The Oldest Fossils [Re: paul]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...


"5 - 10 my is not 10s of millions of years."
Poor recollection on my part. 5 to 10 is still not "instantaneous."

" fact vs a theory."
Theories do not graduate into become facts.The germ theory of disease is still a theory, even though it is a fact that some germs cause some diseases.

The word "theory" does not reflect any level of certainty - any more than the word "law" does.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTaiP04UlxE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un-I0mRq8Dw

There is no "graduating" into facts and there is no opposition between fact and theory.


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#29808 - 03/11/09 11:15 PM Re: The Oldest Fossils [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
FF- Paul does not understand the meaning of the word 'theory' nor does he understand the word 'science'. You are correct, no word reflects certainty, (I'm on home ground here!), and we each bring our own interpretation to help us to understanding. However maybe it is Paul's individual interpretation of information that is so dogmatic, rather than the actual science involved.


Edited by Ellis (03/11/09 11:18 PM)
Edit Reason: thought of a good point!!!

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#29809 - 03/12/09 12:30 AM Re: The Oldest Fossils [Re: Ellis]
Zephir Offline
Superstar

Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
The problem with evolution is, scientists can be never sure about it. Now they're speculating, for example, the life has come into Earth from Ceres planetoid.
.
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/090305-am-ceres-earth-life.html
.
Such speculation could explain every great species explosion, including the formation of human species.

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#29810 - 03/12/09 02:33 AM Re: The Oldest Fossils [Re: Zephir]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Zephir wrote:

"The problem with evolution is, scientists can be never sure about it."

Exactly! That's the whole point! Only Creationists are sure about things--to the point of dogmatic usually. Scientists can never be sure of anything, that's why they work so hard to discover what is the most likely explanation. And who knows, having landed here the little green men from Ceres may have started evolving like mad into all the things we know and love. Or their microbes and bits would have formed the much-loved SF plot device, "primordial soup", and happily evolved from that! The theory of Evolution does not attempt to explain the origin of life on earth, but the origin of the SPECIES of life on earth. There is a difference.

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#29814 - 03/12/09 01:48 PM Re: The Oldest Fossils [Re: Zephir]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
"scientists can be never sure about it."

Scientists are not so sure of the particulars, but of the general theory, they are as certain as they are that the germs cause disease or that electrons exist.

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#29816 - 03/12/09 03:59 PM Re: The Oldest Fossils [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Max Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/07
Posts: 93
"we have witnessed macro-evolution in the life-span of human beings."

Macroevolution...Not macro-evolution. Example, please? I did not know that we have witnessed macroevolution.

Thanks


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#29818 - 03/12/09 05:00 PM Re: The Oldest Fossils [Re: Max]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEGQu3cm3CE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne1GwkFmylY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nnu-O5x_pRU

Of course many creationists reject macroevolution outright, almost always by attempting to redefine the meaning of the term.


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#29823 - 03/12/09 06:07 PM Re: The Oldest Fossils [Re: Ellis]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
Quote:
Only Creationists are sure about things


you sound pretty sure about that , but I guess not!

Quote:
Scientists can never be sure of anything


there must not be any practicing scientist that post on this
forum then , because from what I've read they are all prety sure
that creation is wrong , they have no evidence , they are just sure that there sure ...

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#29824 - 03/12/09 07:01 PM Re: The Oldest Fossils [Re: Max]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
tff
Quote:
we have witnessed macro-evolution in the life-span of human beings


I watched the darwhinist videos you posted , and I though all
this stuff was more or less common knowlege , such as the different dog species that were bred from wolves.

and all of the different rodent species , and flowers , and
insects and such .

I noticed that the person who made these unregistered videos
didnt take the time to research what he was opposing , the video
seems to think that there were only two of each kind...

Genesis 7:2

Quote:
Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.


in the videos he stated that if only two of each species of
insect was in the ark , the ark would sink.

now Im sure you realize that if the ark were filled with only the original species and not the multitude of diversities that have appeared since the time of the flood , that the insects
could easily have fit into just the roof and walls of the ark
and there were three ceilings inside , along with three floors
when you add in the walls , there was plenty of space for the insects.

Genesis 6:16
Quote:
A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.


Im not sure why this person seems to rely on evoloution to fullfill his needs and deny evoloution at the same time by making this type of claim as his videos depicts rapid evoloution
in insects.

the ark was 100 cubits [L] x 50 cubits [W] x 30 cubits [H]
as for the size of a cubit the cubit has changed or evolved
over the years itself.

Quote:
The earliest attested standard measure is from Egypt and was called the Royal Cubit (Mahe) and was 523 to 525 mm


1 cubit = .5 meters or 523 millimeters = 0.523 meters

Quote:
From late Antiquity, the Roman ulna, a four-foot cubit (about 120 cm) is also attested.


1 cubit = 1.2 meters or 120 centimeters = 1.2 meters

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubit

Granted that Moses wrote Genesis , what was passed down to him
through memory as a measurement of lenght ie.. the cubit , could
have over thousands of years or longer before he wrote it down
been a measurement much like the roman 4 foot cubit.

judging from the size of the window.

so the ark could have been apx 1/2 a football field
or well over a football field in lenght
and width.

120 meters = 131.23... yds

using dogs as a basis , how many different breeds / species are there today?

and supposedly all these species/ breeds came from a single species of "wolf" in a not so distant past.

but back to the sinking of the Ark by just the insects...

does this person realize that the Ark could have displaced
over 566 million pounds of water?

which is the weight of 3.7 million - 150 lb men !!!

how many pounds does an insect weight?

just thinking about this , I could most likely carry several million ants or more myself , in a grocery bag !!


how many species / breeds / variations of animals / insects were there back before the flood?

one video or program I have watched recently states that 98% of all species that have ever lived on the earth are now extinct.

Quote:
Of course many creationists reject macroevolution outright, almost always by attempting to redefine the meaning of the term.


I must not be the average creationist , I dont try to re-define things , I just try to re-create the scenario or try to find if the scenario is or is not possible.

and when something doesnt seem quite right I dont just fall in line with everybody else who thinks its right.

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#29827 - 03/13/09 04:55 AM Re: The Oldest Fossils [Re: paul]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
"Granted that Moses wrote Genesis".....?

------ when was this curious suggestion made? Who decided this?

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#29829 - 03/13/09 01:03 PM Re: The Oldest Fossils [Re: Ellis]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
It's unfortunate that the video poster spent time referring to the ark which wasn't directly relevant to the point. The genesis story is beautiful literature and nothing more. It's so patently absurd as to be unworthy of serious attempts at refutation.

The central point of my posting those links was to provide examples of speciation. Speciation, by definition, is an example of macroevolution. Macroevolution has been observed.

Moreover, while it is convenient for the sake of the political debate over evolution that humans have witnessed macroevolution, it's not necessary from a scientific standpoint. That is, we could accept macroevolution with reasonable certainty without anyone ever having witnessed it.





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#29830 - 03/13/09 01:11 PM Re: The Oldest Fossils [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
Ellis,

We use words like 'sure' and 'certain' in ambiguous ways. I think scientists have reasonable certainty about things, but they don't have absolute certainty. Science can't give us absolute certainty.

Not just theories, but laws, facts, etc. are always open to re-investigation and questioning. Even something as strongly held as the 1st law of thermodynamics is questioned. Are there constraints on the 1st law of thermodynamics? For example, does the existence of virtual particles violate the 1st law?

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#29832 - 03/13/09 01:56 PM Re: The Oldest Fossils [Re: Ellis]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
Ellis

most Bible scholars believe that Moses wrote the first
five books of the Bible , and when Moses wrote these first
books , including the first book Genesis he was writting the
history of the Hebrew people , history that had been passed down
generation after generation.

http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/moses.html

Moses was the adopted son of a Egyptian Pharohs daughter.

He at length became “learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians”
as he attended universities, and at one of which, probably that of Heliopolis, his education was completed.

Heliopolis

He probably would have studied the engineering techniques and the sciences that were available in Egypt at the time.

He became a General in the Egyptian army , and was in service
durring the war between Egypt and Ethiopia.


who wrote the first five books , the Bible.

he caught someone mistreating one of the Hebrew slaves and
moses being a Hebrew himself , killed him then burried him in the sand.

Rameses II found out and wanted to kill moses so he left town and moved to sinai.

he came back later and freed the Hebrew slaves , and they all left Egypt , pretty interesting stuff.

here is a link to an online reference where you can read these
books.

this link is to a online copy of the king james version of the Bible.

the bottom two links are to the Hebrew Bible
and the latin vulgate version of the Bible.

http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/www/Bible/


_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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